R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Made some progress here. This is my B7 table:

Menu IRE - Pattern %

5 - 15
10 - 20
15 - 25
20 - 30
25 - 40
30 - 45
35 - 50
55 - 55
70 - 60

Bad news is even if I touch a couple of them only +10 (patterns 40 and 45, don’t need to touch anything below pattern 40) I get bad artifacts in real content.
Definitely sounds like a little bit of trial and error...Have you attempted a 2-point?

- Ryan M.
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post #1712 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Definitely sounds like a little bit of trial and error...Have you attempted a 2-point?

- Ryan M.
Yeah, two points is ok and grayscale ramps looks good enough but after 20pt ramps looks very bad and I can calibrate only up to 60. I can't even touch luminance or I get artefacts. Behaves exactly like HDR calibration.

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post #1713 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Yeah, two points is ok and grayscale ramps looks good enough but after 20pt ramps looks very bad and I can calibrate only up to 60. I can't even touch luminance or I get artefacts. Behaves exactly like HDR calibration.
I am curious. Have you performed a factory reset to the TV? Before you did the HDR calibration? Has there been new firmware updates since? If so, then I would say give it a shot as there may be NVRam inconsistencies.

I have factory reset numerous TVs that has changed the output properties and can sometimes fix certain issues.

Also could you post a pre-calibration image of the DV grayscale EOTF?

Last edited by skschatzman; 06-02-2019 at 06:53 AM.
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post #1714 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
I am curious. Have you performed a factory reset to the TV? Before you did the HDR calibration? Has there been new firmware updates since? If so, then I would say give it a shot as there may be NVRam inconsistencies.

I have factory reset numerous TVs that has changed the output properties and can sometimes fix certain issues.

Also could you post a pre-calibration image of the DV grayscale EOTF?
I think LG updates are immune from this kind of issues, never heard about this from other LG users in over a year. However I did a factory reset when the TV was brand new.

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post #1715 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
I think LG updates are immune from this kind of issues, never heard about this from other LG users in over a year. However I did a factory reset when the TV was brand new.
No electronics are immune from issues, especially after firmware updates. It doesn't matter the brand or even if you haven't seen posted issues. I say that would be a good step to take.
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post #1716 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Hi liberator72,

I agree, switching between test patterns can be quite cumbersome at times. Especially if the media player in-use is slow to trigger HDR modes and in-between clips. I'm considering concatenating streams to make a single video file to eliminate this issue. As for your Panasonic DP-UB820, though Dolby Vision capable, may not have the ability for DV playback via USB. I'm not quite sure about the XBox or even how it plays the file back in HDR?? These test patterns utilize profile 5 (1.0, dvhe.05.06, BL+RPU) a Base layer (BL) + RPU metadata, with no enhancement layer (EL). Which is typically how a non-Dolby Vision capable device has the ability to playback the DV file in HDR-10. As for your Sony UBP-X700, I see that it recognizes the files. However, you state that "Sony forces DV", do you need to force DV playback in-order for the test patterns to be recognized? Utilizing a UHD BD player via USB could be a viable solution. I ran numerous tests between an Oppo UDP-203 via USB (ultimately HDMI out) and a LG C7 via USB and internal media player, with only slight variances within readings. However, not all devices pass signal through properly. I would recommend running a measured sweep directly through your display's media player, then the exact same sweep through your UBP-X700 and compare differences before making a decision. As for output settings, though YCbCr is recommended for BD disc playback. You will need to temporarily utilize RGB Full for these patterns. Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns. Thanks!

- Ryan M.

Hi Ryan,

I agree that the Panasonic is more than likely not able to playback Dolby Vision via USB, and as for the Xbox One X, that baffled me also, but playback on that device with one of the Microsoft built in apps definitely triggers the TV into HDR rather than Dolby Vision. This is a Microsoft issue, not an issue with your patterns. As for the Sony UBP-X700. To enable Dolby Vision on this player, there is a toggle in the settings. Once this is toggled on, even HDR10 content triggers the TV into Dolby Vision unlike most other DV compatible UHD Players that auto switch based on the content played. This means when switching between HDR10 disks and DV disks, you have to go into the settings menu each time to toggle Dolby Vision on/off. This what I mean by the player forcing Dolby Vision.

I have just run a 10 point sweep using the TV's built in player, followed by a 10 point sweep using the Sony UBP-X700 with the output set to RGB. I am happy to report that there were only very minor differences between the 2 sweeps, if anything I actually got slightly better results using the Sony. With my TV being an LG C7 OLED, the variances are to be expected, so I feel confident in saying that I can proceed with using the Sony UHD Player with these patterns.

Thank you for you assistance

Regards, Leon
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post #1717 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
No electronics are immune from issues, especially after firmware updates. It doesn't matter the brand or even if you haven't seen posted issues. I say that would be a good step to take.
I did reset the TV, nothing changed.
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post #1718 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
I did reset the TV, nothing changed.
Can you please post a pre-calibration reading of the DV EOTF?
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post #1719 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 10:32 AM
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Can you please post a pre-calibration reading of the DV EOTF?
This is not a pre-cal because I did not save it. It's a reading after 2 points white.
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post #1720 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
This is not a pre-cal because I did not save it. It's a reading after 2 points white.
After 2pt balance seems good. I wouldn't worry about trying to flatten the reading as the rolloff is not supposed to be flat. At this point I would just leave it as is or use multipoint to balance RGB and leave it at that. Maybe a small dip between 30-50% could be adjusted, but it looks to be within acceptable error standards. It shouldn't need 10+ adjustments. Also note that some manufacturers(Vizio) repurpose the backlight setting to adjust mid-tones without effecting peak brightness. Test it to see if it helps the 30-50% range without negatively impacting the rest of the curve.

Use the grayscale ramp pattern in Ryan's suite to look for imbalances in the gradient.
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post #1721 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
After 2pt balance seems good. I wouldn't worry about trying to flatten the reading as the rolloff is not supposed to be flat. At this point I would just leave it as is or use multipoint to balance RGB and leave it at that. It already looks to be within acceptable error standards. It shouldn't need 10+ adjustments.

Use the grayscale ramp pattern in Ryan's suite to look for imbalances in the gradient.
Thank you skschatzman for all the help. I'm gonna leave it like that. The funny things is that I wanted the perfect DV calibration so i bought the Integral2, then I discovered that is not supported by Calman at all and the 1 is discontinued. Then bought the Ryan's pattern (amazing work). At the end i'm stuck with the same 2points calibration I already had when i did simulate the DV calibration with the HDR patterns I already had... bah.

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post #1722 of 1817 Old 06-02-2019, 02:42 PM
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Unfortunately dv on USB is not playable on the Panasonic ub820.....this is not good.

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post #1723 of 1817 Old 06-03-2019, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panasonicst60 View Post
Unfortunately dv on USB is not playable on the Panasonic ub820.....this is not good.
Hi panasonicst60,

You may need to utilize your C8's USB port for playback. I know Panasonic released a firmware update to enable Dolby Vision on the UB820 awhile back. However, that might have only included disc playback or they didn't include compatibility for DV profile 5?? Have you attempted to burn the files to disc and playback as a storage medium?

- Ryan M.
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post #1724 of 1817 Old 06-03-2019, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Thank you skschatzman for all the help. I'm gonna leave it like that. The funny things is that I wanted the perfect DV calibration so i bought the Integral2, then I discovered that is not supported by Calman at all and the 1 is discontinued. Then bought the Ryan's pattern (amazing work). At the end i'm stuck with the same 2points calibration I already had when i did simulate the DV calibration with the HDR patterns I already had... bah.
I have the same issue.

I have both the HDR and DV patterns on a usb stick. Basically can only do a 2pt grey scale with them. Don’t want to mess with the CMS on my LG as that can sometimes make things worse. Was also looking at a Integral 1 to inject the metadata so I could use my pattern generator. That’s not happening either. In lew of spendings big bucks on a HDR pattern generator, one can only hope that CalMan will fix the problem that stopped the use of the Integral 1 or someone coming out with a more affordable HDR PG.

I do want to thank mascior for the effort in providing these patterns. It is amazing what a difference just the 2 pt cal can make!
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One must be careful with patterns on a USB stick!
Settings for USB, can be different than those of HDMI.

To test, install some settings while using USB, and then check whether they carry over to HDMI. If they do NOT, then your system has 2 sets of settings.
Therefore, calibrating using USB, will not end with calibrations for HDMI.

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post #1726 of 1817 Old 06-03-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
One must be careful with patterns on a USB stick!

Settings for USB, can be different than those of HDMI.



To test, install some settings while using USB, and then check whether they carry over to HDMI. If they do NOT, then your system has 2 sets of settings.

Therefore, calibrating using USB, will not end with calibrations for HDMI.
This is possible, but the files on a USB stick plugged into the TV are natively decoded by the TV, so if you mostly stream content from native apps on the TV then it should be accurate.

Checking external devices for accurate output is also recommended if you are capable of multiple calibration tables, but some TV's only allow for one.

Last edited by skschatzman; 06-04-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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post #1727 of 1817 Old 06-03-2019, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
One must be careful with patterns on a USB stick!

Settings for USB, can be different than those of HDMI.



To test, install some settings while using USB, and then check whether they carry over to HDMI. If they do NOT, then your system has 2 sets of settings.

Therefore, calibrating using USB, will not end with calibrations for HDMI.
One way to get around this if you have a DLNA and an HDMI streaming device is to put the files on the DLNA, then use your player plugged into the HDMI to steam it (supposing you have a streaming device capable of supporting the HDR files).
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post #1728 of 1817 Old 06-04-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
One must be careful with patterns on a USB stick!
Settings for USB, can be different than those of HDMI.

To test, install some settings while using USB, and then check whether they carry over to HDMI. If they do NOT, then your system has 2 sets of settings.
Therefore, calibrating using USB, will not end with calibrations for HDMI.
Good point. I plug mine into my 4K player which goes through my receiver then to the TV via HDMI.

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A calibration of the USB Input, also takes care of onboard TV Apps.

Has anyone figured out how to calibrate the actual TV Input? I install the HDMI calibrated settings, but it still doesn't look right.

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post #1730 of 1817 Old 06-04-2019, 10:56 AM
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Ryan, the DV file runs fine on my Oppo 205...I get a DV logo on my screen when the patterns are up. Does this mean I don't have to worry about selecting RGB full on my Sony Z9D? Looks like the Sony selects full range in Auto mode.
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post #1731 of 1817 Old 06-04-2019, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Ryan, the DV file runs fine on my Oppo 205...I get a DV logo on my screen when the patterns are up. Does this mean I don't have to worry about selecting RGB full on my Sony Z9D? Looks like the Sony selects full range in Auto mode.
Correct. DV profile 5 forces full range. You should be good to go. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1732 of 1817 Old 06-08-2019, 01:06 PM
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Halo,


I just bought the DV pattern.


I am familiar with SDR calibration via calman, but I have never done HDR/DV calibration.


I just got my OLED a few months ago, before I had plasma.


Can someone give a basic step by step guideline ?

Thanks
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post #1733 of 1817 Old 06-09-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Halo,


I just bought the DV pattern.


I am familiar with SDR calibration via calman, but I have never done HDR/DV calibration.


I just got my OLED a few months ago, before I had plasma.


Can someone give a basic step by step guideline ?

Thanks
Seconded.
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post #1734 of 1817 Old 06-10-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by santodx5 View Post
Halo,


I just bought the DV pattern.


I am familiar with SDR calibration via calman, but I have never done HDR/DV calibration.


I just got my OLED a few months ago, before I had plasma.


Can someone give a basic step by step guideline ?

Thanks
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Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Seconded.
So, first, it depends on which software suite you are using for calibration. I primarily use HCFR, but if you use chromapure, spectracal, or light illusion, there are going to be some differences.

Next, are you talking about HDR10 generally and the PQ EOTF thereof, or Dolby Vision. As was warned, although DV and HDR10 use the same PQ EOTF curve, different display manufacturers may implement it in such a way that you cannot easily do DV the same way of doing HDR10. My Vizio P50-C1 is an example of that. That is the reason I'll eventually be purchasing the Spectracal Home product, but since my next sets will be either Vizio or TCL with current offerings and pricing, I'm holding out until they put out an autocal version for one of those manufacturers (the TCL X10, for example, uses a 17x17x17 3D LUT autocal feature, but isn't released until around September).

So the following will describe my HDR-10 workflow, not DV workflow because I still have not discovered a good way to do it with the freeware software available (if possible, support your developers for software, patterns like R. Masciola's, R.Pi generator, or Ted's Lightspace if going with those options, etc.), but this may work for DV depending how your TV mfrs implemented DV.

1) Set the Backlight.
To do this, you first need to do a reading of your black and 100% white to see what you are working with. If you are under a peak white of 465cd/m^2 with a roll-off implemented, then you should calculate what your diffuse white value should be, which roughly translates to where the 50% gray pattern should be set for nits. For HCFR, this adjusts the luminance curve. You may also want to just run the entire gray scale to figure out whether the manufacturer implements a BT.2390 roll-off at the near white. That is important to understand if it clips and where, which can effect the diffuse white value, which really only comes in if a roll-off is employed.

After you know if the roll-off is implemented and have the diffuse white value, which roughly sets the 50% gray value, you then put up the 50% gray pattern and adjust the backlight until the Y value (xyY calibration) matches the calculated 50% value (on many sets with lower nit values, raising the backlight value will not change the peak brightness. If yours does not change that value, it will move the curve inside of that by changing backlight, so lining up the 50% gray on brightness should help get it close to where it needs to be. This can vary by set, so try to verify how your manufacturer has implemented their controls on the set.).

2) use the patterns to set your brightness and contrast values. Then use the flashing boxes patterns, if your TV employs a color only mode (like blue only mode or red only mode, etc.), to set the color value.
Sometimes you cannot set these perfectly with HDR. Just try your best with what you know on SDR. Many choose Blue over red or green only mode for numerous reasons which will not be discussed here. You could even check the values and select the color with the highest value on color. This is setting chroma, which is related to saturation, but distinct from it. Tom Huffman discussed this a bit in his guide in this forum.

3) Set the grayscale.
First, start with the offset and gain values to try to lower the dE as low as possible. I personally use dICtCp error value, but many use the dECIE76 for gray scale and dECIE2000 values for colors. That really is a preference, but Calman is mentioning that dITP/dICtCp 720 is what they are going with on HDR. I prefer the look I achieve with that even on SDR. But pick your poison, so to speak.

I like to run gray scale sweeps rather than just doing 30/80 or 30/100 for this, then monitoring the RGB delta without gamma on the entire sweep. This allows me to analyze how the offset or gain is effecting the entire scale, allowing to get the RGB dE as low as possible before moving on. Many recommend trying to minimize any increase on the offset values as it may change the black value, including raising the number of nits there. Be aware of the limits of your colorimeter on reading near black levels as well to know where it may be less accurate. For gain, playing with the green value can change the contrast on some displays, so be careful there as well, as you can often just change the red and blue values to balance the gain without running that risk.

Once you have the offset and gain set, then you can move on to adjusting the gray scale with the 10/11/20 point adjustments by including gamma in the calculation. Some manufacturers set the adjustments within the scale that they work with, so you may have to figure out what the percentage on the TV adjustment pairs up with which pattern you are displaying. You might have the 50% TV value match with the 55% gray pattern, etc. So figuring out which value matches which pattern is key (or if it spans two patterns, trying to balance the setting versus the dE value on the two patterns). This can be the most infuriating and time consuming at first. Once you know the set, you can jump in relatively quickly.

4) Set the CMS values for the color, often HSV/HSB values.
Depending on how much gamut coverage you have, this will vary. The wider the supported gamut, the easier this is to set, obviously. This is why, for the most part, you can just use the 50%amp/50%sat patterns, which are around 100 cd/m^2, to set roughly where the color would be similarly to how you set up SDR using 100%amp/100%sat, except you won't have the steps in between if you use sat sweeps to set it. You will want to get the 50% patterns and 25% patterns more on point than worrying about the higher values as this is where the accuracy will matter a bit more, but if your set can support the full values for DCI P3 gamut, up to 90% REC 2020 on top end flagships potentially on some sets, then you will want to try to get it accurately set on the sat sweeps across all percentages as much as possible (good practice anyways). As R. Masciola pointed out in one of his manuals, I think the DV manual, getting the xy coordinates correct is more important than matching the Y luminance value, so if you have to give somewhere, give on that.

You may find you have to make some tradeoffs. It happens.

5) Go back and verify the earlier settings are still good. You may need to change some of the 10/11/20 point adjustments for gamma after making changes to the color CMS. If so, then double check the CMS doesn't need some extra tweaks after that if you changed anything.

So, it is roughly similar to that of SDR calibration for HDR, to a degree. More things to watch for, but not so many that it should be insurmountable. DV does not always follow the above. It should be close, but not always and will vary by implementation by the manufacturer, as well as limitations of your TV set. You also need to watch to make sure the HDR you are setting has activated with the pattern being displayed before taking the measurement, which means there may be a delay between selecting the pattern and when the set kicks in for HDR to then measure, which can vary by set.

The brighter your set's top value is (meaning nits or cd/m^2), the easier it should be for getting the values set, same with wider supported gamut values.



This isn't a perfect explanation, but should give you a rough idea of calibrating HDR. HLG is much simpler, as it follows more closely SDR calibration. For my Vizio P50-C1, it seemed the CMS values were shared between HDR-10 and HLG, so I stuck with my settings for HDR-10 calibration, then just worked within that to set the more global settings of backlight, brightness, contrast, color, tint, sharpness to get it right, which the grayscale tracked really well in regards to RGB balance by using the HDR-10 settings, and did decent on the gamma value, so no real complaints. That can vary by manufacturer though and may be separate CMS controls for each depending on your set.

Hope this helps you guys somewhat.

Edit: and if anyone with more experience wants to jump in and correct anything I've described above, please do so. This is speaking from my current understanding of HDR calibration, which may not be representative of the industry at large or may be inaccurate compared to someone who calibrates for a living or is more engrossed in the content of color theory than I am.

Last edited by ajc9988; 06-10-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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post #1735 of 1817 Old 06-10-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
As was warned, although DV and HDR10 use the same PQ EOTF curve, different display manufacturers may implement it in such a way that you cannot easily do DV the same way of doing HDR10. My Vizio P50-C1 is an example of that.
Vizio does not use the same EOTF curve for DV and HDR10. Vizio offers a Golden Reference file for each of their DV capable TVs. It ss used with Spectracal's software. The DV curve for these sets is visible different than the HDR10 curve.
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Vizio does not use the same EOTF curve for DV and HDR10. Vizio offers a Golden Reference file for each of their DV capable TVs. It ss used with Spectracal's software. The DV curve for these sets is visible different than the HDR10 curve.
Yes, I am aware. The reason for using the lower value on backlight, from what I can tell, is to allow better tracking of the lower values with the curve, which shoots up and does not employ a roll off, for the most part, with using 30 for the backlight, or so it seems (edit: in my investigations, there is some roll off present if going down to 25 for backlight or if doing it like HDR-10 by raising the backlight to the 80s or 90s, which then you get a crook at the 50 percent gray while you could match, roughly, the low and high ends of the curve, but the colors won't match due to targets being different for the set seen below). I'd need more details to see what exactly they did for deciding what they have for the relative Golden Reference, which also defines a custom color point for R, G, and B within the file (try opening it with notepad in Windows and you will see what they define at the top of the file before hitting the program language portion of the file).

Because of the custom defined color settings (which cannot be set in HCFR for SMPTE 2084), along with needing closer to a 31 diffuse white point (edit: at least for FALD on), among other changes, HCFR will NOT properly give the luminance or target color values for the Vizio set.

That does NOT mean that one should not play and investigate with other software to gain an understanding of what the manufacturer, along with partners, have set for the implementation of DV and trying to discern why they chose what they did in that process.

My question to you is why you have not investigated further, instead staying on the surface level? You are correct that using Spectracal is the only way, with the DV Golden Reference file, to get an accurate DV calibration on Vizio sets. Congrats and claps for stating the obvious.

Outside of that, can you say other TV manufacturers hold the same? Especially since they are discussing OLED calibration, at least for one of them, suggesting an LG potentially or some other vendor aside from Vizio.

So do you have something more to add? Or are you just going to repeat yourself?

Edit:
Here is what is in the .dvgr file for my set
TITLE "VizioP50_10b_0005_400_BT1886_22_YUV_FULL_DM2.11_G oldenReference.dvgr"
GR_FILE_VERSION 0.2
TIMESTAMP 2016 04 07 12 41 7
D_MANUFACTURER "Vizio"
D_MODEL "P50"
D_FIRMWARE_VER "0.0.0.0"
D_TECHNOLOGY "LCD_DUALMOD"
D_SUBPIXEL_COMPOSITION "RGB"
D_REFERENCE_MODE "Calibrated_Dark"
D_DM_VERSION 2.11
D_HW_LUT_CHECKSUM 0
S_MAX 4000
S_MIN 0.005
S_GAMMA 0
S_PRIMARY 0.68 0.32 0.265 0.69 0.15 0.06 0.3127 0.329
S_COLORSPACE "RGB"
S_BITDEPTH 12
S_RGB_SIGNALRANGE "FULL"
S_EOTF "PQ"
S_Diagonalinches 42
S_Aspect 16 9
T_MAX 400
T_MIN 0.005
T_GAMMA 2.2
T_PRIMARY 0.6682 0.3132 0.2858 0.6443 0.1533 0.0557 0.3127 0.329
T_COLORSPACE "YUV"
T_BITDEPTH 10
T_SIGNALRANGE "FULL"
T_GLOBAL_DIMMING "LOCAL"
T_CSC_MATRIX 0.299 0.587 0.114 -0.1724 -0.3386 0.511 0.511 -0.4279 -0.0831
T_EOTF "BT1886"
T_DIAGONAL_INCHES 50
T_ASPECT 16 9
T_PATTERN_SIZE 10
T_PATTERN_TYPE "area"
T_PATTERN_DE_TOLERANCE 5
NO_OF_LUTS 3
LUT1_NAME "GR1D"
LUT1_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "XYZ"
LUT1_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT1_DOMAIN_MAX 4095 4095 4095
LUT1_LUT_TYPE "1D"
LUT1_LUT_SIZE 4096
LUT1_LUT_TABLESIZE 4096 3
LUT1_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
LUT2_NAME "GR3D"
LUT2_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "XYZ"
LUT2_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT2_DOMAIN_MAX 4095 4095 4095
LUT2_LUT_TYPE "3D"
LUT2_LUT_SIZE 65
LUT2_LUT_TABLESIZE 274625 3
LUT2_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
LUT3_NAME "HW"
LUT3_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "YUV"
LUT3_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT3_DOMAIN_MAX 0 0 0
LUT3_LUT_TYPE "3D"
LUT3_LUT_SIZE 17
LUT3_LUT_TABLESIZE 4913 3
LUT3_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
END_OF_MD

Last edited by ajc9988; 06-10-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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post #1737 of 1817 Old 06-10-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
Yes, I am aware. The reason for using the lower value on backlight, from what I can tell, is to allow better tracking of the lower values with the curve, which shoots up and does not employ a roll off, for the most part, with using 30 for the backlight, or so it seems (edit: in my investigations, there is some roll off present if going down to 25 for backlight or if doing it like HDR-10 by raising the backlight to the 80s or 90s, which then you get a crook at the 50 percent gray while you could match, roughly, the low and high ends of the curve, but the colors won't match due to targets being different for the set seen below). I'd need more details to see what exactly they did for deciding what they have for the relative Golden Reference, which also defines a custom color point for R, G, and B within the file (try opening it with notepad in Windows and you will see what they define at the top of the file before hitting the program language portion of the file).

Because of the custom defined color settings (which cannot be set in HCFR for SMPTE 2084), along with needing closer to a 31 diffuse white point (edit: at least for FALD on), among other changes, HCFR will NOT properly give the luminance or target color values for the Vizio set.

That does NOT mean that one should not play and investigate with other software to gain an understanding of what the manufacturer, along with partners, have set for the implementation of DV and trying to discern why they chose what they did in that process.

My question to you is why you have not investigated further, instead staying on the surface level? You are correct that using Spectracal is the only way, with the DV Golden Reference file, to get an accurate DV calibration on Vizio sets. Congrats and claps for stating the obvious.

Outside of that, can you say other TV manufacturers hold the same? Especially since they are discussing OLED calibration, at least for one of them, suggesting an LG potentially or some other vendor aside from Vizio.

So do you have something more to add? Or are you just going to repeat yourself?

Edit:
Here is what is in the .dvgr file for my set
TITLE "VizioP50_10b_0005_400_BT1886_22_YUV_FULL_DM2.11_G oldenReference.dvgr"
GR_FILE_VERSION 0.2
TIMESTAMP 2016 04 07 12 41 7
D_MANUFACTURER "Vizio"
D_MODEL "P50"
D_FIRMWARE_VER "0.0.0.0"
D_TECHNOLOGY "LCD_DUALMOD"
D_SUBPIXEL_COMPOSITION "RGB"
D_REFERENCE_MODE "Calibrated_Dark"
D_DM_VERSION 2.11
D_HW_LUT_CHECKSUM 0
S_MAX 4000
S_MIN 0.005
S_GAMMA 0
S_PRIMARY 0.68 0.32 0.265 0.69 0.15 0.06 0.3127 0.329
S_COLORSPACE "RGB"
S_BITDEPTH 12
S_RGB_SIGNALRANGE "FULL"
S_EOTF "PQ"
S_Diagonalinches 42
S_Aspect 16 9
T_MAX 400
T_MIN 0.005
T_GAMMA 2.2
T_PRIMARY 0.6682 0.3132 0.2858 0.6443 0.1533 0.0557 0.3127 0.329
T_COLORSPACE "YUV"
T_BITDEPTH 10
T_SIGNALRANGE "FULL"
T_GLOBAL_DIMMING "LOCAL"
T_CSC_MATRIX 0.299 0.587 0.114 -0.1724 -0.3386 0.511 0.511 -0.4279 -0.0831
T_EOTF "BT1886"
T_DIAGONAL_INCHES 50
T_ASPECT 16 9
T_PATTERN_SIZE 10
T_PATTERN_TYPE "area"
T_PATTERN_DE_TOLERANCE 5
NO_OF_LUTS 3
LUT1_NAME "GR1D"
LUT1_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "XYZ"
LUT1_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT1_DOMAIN_MAX 4095 4095 4095
LUT1_LUT_TYPE "1D"
LUT1_LUT_SIZE 4096
LUT1_LUT_TABLESIZE 4096 3
LUT1_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
LUT2_NAME "GR3D"
LUT2_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "XYZ"
LUT2_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT2_DOMAIN_MAX 4095 4095 4095
LUT2_LUT_TYPE "3D"
LUT2_LUT_SIZE 65
LUT2_LUT_TABLESIZE 274625 3
LUT2_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
LUT3_NAME "HW"
LUT3_OUTPUT_COLOR_SPACE "YUV"
LUT3_DOMAIN_MIN 0 0 0
LUT3_DOMAIN_MAX 0 0 0
LUT3_LUT_TYPE "3D"
LUT3_LUT_SIZE 17
LUT3_LUT_TABLESIZE 4913 3
LUT3_LUT_FORMAT "uINT16"
END_OF_MD
Downloaded the DV patterns. The file does not have color saturation sweep in HCFR under Rec2020/P3 space which sweeps at 25%. 50%, 75% etc. It can individually check for CMS saturation under the Rec2020 space, but not P3. I try to calibrate my OLED C8 but the full Rec2020 space is not suitable for calibrating my TV but P3 is. A lot of people including me like to stay with HCFR so updating the DV files to address HCFR would be nice.
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You don't touch the CMS in DV. Just the Grayscale.
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Quote:
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Downloaded the DV patterns. The file does not have color saturation sweep in HCFR under Rec2020/P3 space which sweeps at 25%. 50%, 75% etc. It can individually check for CMS saturation under the Rec2020 space, but not P3. I try to calibrate my OLED C8 but the full Rec2020 space is not suitable for calibrating my TV but P3 is. A lot of people including me like to stay with HCFR so updating the DV files to address HCFR would be nice.
If you are cool doing 5 instead of 4 point, go into misc. folder>Color Gamuts in BT2020 Patterns > P3 Sat Sweep in BT2020. I do agree on wanting a 0% saturation to check sat shifts in HCFR, but wanted to mention that there are 2020/P3 patterns included in the misc. folder. These are not specific to HCFR, but HCFR does NOT have official DV support at the moment. It does support the SMPTE 2084 and BT.2390 standards (the latter being a roll-off on the high end).

So, if you just change the parameters to 5 point for saturation, you can use the BT2020/P3 patterns in that folder to attempt it. You may even reach out to the HCFR thread for others with an LG C8 to ask about their successes. In the unreleased version 3.5.1.7, there is a box to use a vertex to inject DV signal. That does not mean that it is made fully for the implementation of DV though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You don't touch the CMS in DV. Just the Grayscale.
Why? Give a cogent reason why just the grayscale. Do you believe the company producing your set accurately set DV color space? Or are you referring to people without Spectracal that may not have proper correction of the color space due to software not yet supporting it officially? Or are you getting at it may not accurately say how to adjust the saturation and brightness within the format due to YCbCr being stretched to the RGB full in the DV standard (not a perfect explanation of what is going on AT ALL with DV, but an explanation I read somewhere before).

I mean, give a cogent argument. It seems like you can adjust the CMS with the 50/50 pattern amp/sat to hit targets within the space even if you cannot check the full saturation sweep. Now, there is an argument that hue might get it aligned, but messing with the saturation and brightness without the right points and luminance for said points would throw off the color further, so doing 2-pt gray scale and possibly the 10/11/20 gray scale NOT for gamma but instead just to tighten the rgb entirely over the gray scale will aide in accuracy and anything else, but specifically saturation and luminance values, would make it worse without having an accurate defined target. It's a pretty good argument.

But just saying don't touch it in DV without more doesn't explain to a reader WHY they may not want to and what risks they can run if they do manipulate it. Also, these pratfalls can be manufacturer specific so that, depending on which manufacturer made your TV, you could encounter different difficulties.
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I found it fine to adjust DV CMS and have had no issue with my C8. Just adjust the individual points (saturation, tint and luminance) using the color map with the understanding that it is a 1D space and willing to compromise and optimize the best I could. For instance, if you try to match the saturation at 100% then you may throw off other points at 75%, 50%, etc. I found that the resultant image to be richer and more cinema like.
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