***Official B/C/E/G6P OLED Calibration Thread - Page 44 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1291 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Micro blocking , very visible to the eye with only 2 clicks on luminance.
I used 30 for photo only as to make the effect more visible


I get similar results on my B6 with the latest .15 firmware. When set to Normal, Extended, or Wide, +/-6 on luminance creates blocking white artifacts where there should be color. CMS tine controls have hard transitions when used from secondary's. This is broken unless there is something I am missing.


- Rich
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post #1292 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I get similar results on my B6 with the latest .15 firmware. When set to Normal, Extended, or Wide, +/-6 on luminance creates blocking white artifacts where there should be color. CMS tine controls have hard transitions when used from secondary's. This is broken unless there is something I am missing.


- Rich
What meter are you using. What is your main color setting. Better yet, what are your OLED light, contrast, brightness, color and tint settings.

I have yet to find a need to use any luminance control beyond +- 5 on any '16 or '17 OLED. Perhaps the reason why I don't see what you all see on my TVs is because of equipment differences, settings used, calibration techniques used or all of the above.

Calibrating the '16s is an art, not science. Reminds me of the Panasonic VT30s.
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post #1293 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
What meter are you using. What is your main color setting. Better yet, what are your OLED light, contrast, brightness, color and tint settings.

I have yet to find a need to use any luminance control beyond +- 5 on any '16 or '17 OLED. Perhaps the reason why I don't see what you all see on my TVs is because of equipment differences, settings used, calibration techniques used or all of the above.

Calibrating the '16s is an art, not science. Reminds me of the Panasonic VT30s.
OLED light 50, Color 49 (also tried 50), I1Display3 profiled by i1Display Pro, Contrast 85, Tint G8 (also tried Tint 0).

Out of the box the B6 was the ruddy/poor flesh tones. Calibration that includes the tint adjustments rein improves them but push cyan and magenta out. Coming from a ZT60 this is a bit annoying. ChadB calibrated the B6 last week and the profiled I1D3 tracks his meters, so I think they are reasonably accurate. The picture is much improved.

Using the CMS with extended increases red saturation. I attempted to reign that back in but that results in large adjustments that produce massive artifacts.


- Rich
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post #1294 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 08:35 AM
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I only needed +2 green lum +4 blue lum and +3 cyan , sky's in real content looked terrible.
Broken just like the cms on the 930 was
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post #1295 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Some oled screens can have a tint which cannot be calibrated out , is it even across the screen or just in one area ? Check using a full white screen.
I would not recommend using the TVs USB file player as is not very accurate, use a blu ray player if possible, most play USB files .
It has a green tint in the middle and a slight red/purple tint on either side, I'm more concerned about the green tint though and want to try and get the best neutral grey-scale I can.

Photo was took with

OLED light at 30, brightness at 50, contrast at 80 and warm1 color mode
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post #1296 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
OLED light 50, Color 49 (also tried 50), I1Display3 profiled by i1Display Pro, Contrast 85, Tint G8 (also tried Tint 0).

Out of the box the B6 was the ruddy/poor flesh tones. Calibration that includes the tint adjustments rein improves them but push cyan and magenta out. Coming from a ZT60 this is a bit annoying. ChadB calibrated the B6 last week and the profiled I1D3 tracks his meters, so I think they are reasonably accurate. The picture is much improved.

Using the CMS with extended increases red saturation. I attempted to reign that back in but that results in large adjustments that produce massive artifacts.


- Rich
I learned a very long time ago to use a lower color setting on the '16s when using Extended. It varies per panel but would be in the low 40s (I think ConecTEDDD has a few posts on this subject somewhere). The use of the Tint control is spot on as that is the only way to fix skin tones on the '16s (figured that out last summer). You correct what it does to RGBCMY tracking by using the CMS. There are a few other things I've learned over the last year while painstakingly working to get my '16s to conform to my Kuros in the image quality arena, but that is another subject
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post #1297 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunvsmoon View Post
It has a green tint in the middle and a slight red/purple tint on either side, I'm more concerned about the green tint though and want to try and get the best neutral grey-scale I can.

Photo was took with

OLED light at 30, brightness at 50, contrast at 80 and warm1 color mode
Yikes!!!
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post #1298 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunvsmoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Some oled screens can have a tint which cannot be calibrated out , is it even across the screen or just in one area ? Check using a full white screen.
I would not recommend using the TVs USB file player as is not very accurate, use a blu ray player if possible, most play USB files .
It has a green tint in the middle and a slight red/purple tint on either side, I'm more concerned about the green tint though and want to try and get the best neutral grey-scale I can.

Photo was took with

OLED light at 30, brightness at 50, contrast at 80 and warm1 color mode
Hand on heart pal I don't think that tint will go anywhere. I have seen lots of tinted oleds over the past two years , tinting like that is there for good . On a 2016 set I would not accept it pal .
I had 2 c6 oleds and there was no tint at all on them.
Turn oled up to 80 and look again .
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post #1299 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
I only needed +2 green lum +4 blue lum and +3 cyan , sky's in real content looked terrible.
Broken just like the cms on the 930 was
Again, I don't have those problems and actually use other reference displays for comparisons and verification.
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post #1300 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 09:42 AM
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Seriously, HDR calibration is really possible? because after 2h i finally got from 5 to 60% grayscale done, then i take a look to 5% and it was totally broken again... why? why?! I'm gonna kick the damn TV at this way
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post #1301 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Hand on heart pal I don't think that tint will go anywhere. I have seen lots of tinted oleds over the past two years , tinting like that is there for good . On a 2016 set I would not accept it pal .
I had 2 c6 oleds and there was no tint at all on them.
Turn oled up to 80 and look again .
This is with OLED set to 80, everything else same settings...
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post #1302 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunvsmoon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Hand on heart pal I don't think that tint will go anywhere. I have seen lots of tinted oleds over the past two years , tinting like that is there for good . On a 2016 set I would not accept it pal .
I had 2 c6 oleds and there was no tint at all on them.
Turn oled up to 80 and look again .
This is with OLED set to 80, everything else same settings...
not as visible but I would still return it
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post #1303 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 01:30 PM
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Well, on B6 you cannot calibrate the grayscale past pattern number 7 of Masciola, more than that you introduce serious artifacts to the image

I ended with color 65 + G2 to fit on the gamut, surprisingly that's the same color that HDR GAME uses by default

To calibrate it i used Oled Light 80, once calibrated i tested if Oled light introduce DeltaE Changes, to my surprise from 80 to 95 there's no changes, at 100 it changes just a few 0.X, so feel free to put it at 95 after calibration

Just saw Fantastic Animals and where to find them, MOTHER OF GOD, what an insane HDR quality this movie have, i spent the last part of the movie with the mouth opened

Last edited by 256k; 04-02-2017 at 02:41 PM.
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post #1304 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 06:21 PM
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The CMS on the B series is completely bad and even small adjustments cause problems. However, in the C, E, and G it is usable in moderation. On them I prefer to limit myself to secondary color tint adjustments, with changes of no more than +-8.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #1305 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
The CMS on the B series is completely bad and even small adjustments cause problems. However, in the C, E, and G it is usable in moderation. On them I prefer to limit myself to secondary color tint adjustments, with changes of no more than +-8.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Following D-Nice's recommendation to use Extended and color at 42 (ish), small adjustments can be made.


This is my first attempt at using the CMS. Red is a bit off, but the flesh-tones are a bit better. Some changes can be made before introducing artifacts.


- Rich
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post #1306 of 2005 Old 04-02-2017, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Miguel Ronda View Post

If I intend to correct white dot and ST 2084 using the 20-point controls provided by LG. This happens:

I bet your grayscale ramp looks even worse

Here´s another method for HDR grayscale calibrating. First measure the default white balance of the color temperature setting of your choice (usually warm2) using normal 0-100 % HDR grayscale patterns. This gives you a rough idea what needs to be done with RGB. Next put the grayscale ramp pattern on and make small R/G/B adjustments according to WB measurement while eyeballing the ramp to see if there is any colorisation and correct those too. This could take some trial and error. Measure WB again and make the needed corrections by ramp/eye -method and so on until satisfied with results. The coded adjustment points allow correction up to about 65% luminance so anything above that stays more or less default.
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post #1307 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 07:33 AM
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I'll ask it again to see if this time i get any response...

Has anyone been really able to calibrate the entire grayscale with Masciola patterns? Because i cannot pass from the 7º without introduce insane artifacts to the image, plus there's always one of the R G B that's impossible to low, has anyone been able to use ALL of them?

I need to know because i'm starting to think that maybe my meter is faulty or something, because calibrate the white is impossible too on 668, on chromapure it says that it's luminance is 10000 and the DeltaE never stops, just keep going up, does not matter what settings i use, i tried with Oled 80, Contrast 80... Nothing

Last edited by 256k; 04-03-2017 at 07:48 AM.
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post #1308 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 09:23 AM
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Has anyone been really able to calibrate the entire grayscale with Masciola patterns
The LG specific patterns and the LG adjustment points cover the lower 2/3 of the entire grayscale. Black is 64 and 100 % white 940. So in that sense it is not possible. The other problem is that from 513 up the patterns and adjustment points do not match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 256k View Post
I need to know because i'm starting to think that maybe my meter is faulty or something, because calibrate the white is impossible too on 668, on chromapure it says that it's luminance is 10000 and the DeltaE never stops, just keep going up, does not matter what settings i use, i tried with Oled 80, Contrast 80... Nothing
Again this is more a chromapure specialist field but suspect the luminance value 10000 (cd/m2) is a target value for 100 % white. When measuring white balance/grayscale graph you should use 0-100% patterns not the LG patterns. You can use the LG patterns (127-498) for adjusting RGB balance and luminance but nor for graph measuring. This is why I have settled with measuring&optical observation method as explained in earlier post.
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post #1309 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 10:16 AM
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You can use the LG patterns (127-498) for adjusting RGB balance and luminance but nor for graph measuring. This is why I have settled with measuring&optical observation method as explained in earlier post.
Then how the hell are you supposed to calibrate a grayscale that has 2 types of grayscales? it's just impossible, the changes you do to the LG one affects insanely to the "normal" hdr grayscale, there's no way to make them match

Jesus christ, LG against the world =___=
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post #1310 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 10:51 AM
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Then how the hell are you supposed to calibrate a grayscale that has 2 types of grayscales? it's just impossible, the changes you do to the LG one affects insanely to the "normal" hdr grayscale, there's no way to make them match

Jesus christ, LG against the world =___=
As said the problem is that the adjustment points do not match either the LG patterns nor the normal 21 point grayscale patterns. So in my opinion you have both measure the grayscale and check the grayscale ramp by eye if there is colorisation when doing adjustments.
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post #1311 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Following D-Nice's recommendation to use Extended and color at 42 (ish), small adjustments can be made.


This is my first attempt at using the CMS. Red is a bit off, but the flesh-tones are a bit better. Some changes can be made before introducing artifacts.


- Rich
I really do not understand why you all are having issues. I don't know everyone's calibration techniques but below are screenshots from my custom workflow that shows the results I get with the 2 B6 displays I have. No artifacts, issues etc. post calibration outside of what is in the source (verified with multiple reference displays side by side). And no I don't have two unicorn B6s either.
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post #1312 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I really do not understand why you all are having issues. I don't know everyone's calibration techniques but below are screenshots from my custom workflow that shows the results I get with the 2 B6 displays I have. No artifacts, issues etc. post calibration outside of what is in the source (verified with multiple reference displays side by side). And no I don't have two unicorn B6s either.

Me neither, but the starting points for basic settings are likely different.


- Rich

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post #1313 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 04:25 PM
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Me neither, but the starting points for basic settings are likely different.


- Rich
Probably so.
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post #1314 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I really do not understand why you all are having issues. I don't know everyone's calibration techniques but below are screenshots from my custom workflow that shows the results I get with the 2 B6 displays I have. No artifacts, issues etc. post calibration outside of what is in the source (verified with multiple reference displays side by side). And no I don't have two unicorn B6s either.
For example, adjusting the tint on Magenta can be changed +/-4 before artifacts can be seen on content.
I do not see artifacts adjusting magenta tint+/- 7 when displaying Ted's color sweeps.
At -7 there are severe compression blocking artifacts displaying a woman's dress on the news.
I suspect that this over-compressed content is unmasking an imperfect transition created by the CMS.

What are the maximum values that you can use in the B6 CMS before observing artifacts?

- Rich

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post #1315 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 05:08 PM
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For example, adjusting the tint on Magenta can be changed +/-4 before artifacts can be seen on content.
I do not see artifacts adjusting magenta tint+/- 7.
Watching some content where a woman on the news was wearing magenta dress compression blocking artifacts are severe.
I suspect that this over-compressed content is unmasking an imperfect transition created by the CMS.


What are the maximum values that you can use in the B6 CMS before observing artifacts?


- Rich
That I do not know. I'm not currently around either B6. As I've said before, calibrating the '16s is art not science..... or should I say more art than science.
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post #1316 of 2005 Old 04-03-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I really do not understand why you all are having issues. I don't know everyone's calibration techniques but below are screenshots from my custom workflow that shows the results I get with the 2 B6 displays I have. No artifacts, issues etc. post calibration outside of what is in the source (verified with multiple reference displays side by side). And no I don't have two unicorn B6s either.
Good looking charts proof nothing. Till now I newer saw a B/C/E/G6
with a working CMS. You get also artifacts when you touch the luminous controls inside the 20p wb look here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post45436297.

That's why I'm using the eecolor to get stuning pictures.
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post #1317 of 2005 Old 04-04-2017, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 256k View Post
But eecolor 3dlut box work fine with a 4k? i supposed that there was problems for not being native 4k but upscaled by the TV

How that thing works? i dont understand... you just put the 3Dlut, start the program and you totally forget about the TV and when you come back, it's calibrated? How? that thing is capable of touch the internal controls of the TV or what?, too bad i cannot spent more money right now

Also a 10/10 to www.chromapure.co.uk, if someone is from europe and wants to buy a profiled i1D3 like me, they're the best, answered so fast to everything, also they told me that my i1D3 has been profiled using a B6 too, cannot wait until friday to start my adventure in the terrorific world of calibration!
Hi, eeColor 3D LUT Box is for SDR signal (up to 1080p60 12bit) and for it's price the value for it's money has the highest ratio from any other calibration gear (see there all options available for HT market).

For 3D LUT, you need only to prepare the display doing basic adjusments only, after initially settings brightness/contrast/sharpness...you don't need to do any serious pre-calibration with LG (since it's internal controls are not working very well), you select the native gamut and do only 100% White with RGB-High from internal controls while you keep an eye for your desired peak output level you will have while you adjusting RGB-Gains and OLED-Light.

After they you start the cube measurements and then you upload the 3D LUT correction file to eeColor 3D LUT Box. After that you take post-verification measurements.

It requires basic calibration skills.

I have posted some results from 3D LUT in a LG OLED here, and Pioneer KURO there; using LightSpace with eeColor 3D LUT Box.

Moving to 3D LUT, it will save you some thousand new hours of trying different patterns and different values of internal calibration controls to minimize your color errors.

For 4K Input you need Lumagen PRO (which cost mimimum about $5000) and a calibration software to use it (+$400) while eeColor 3D LUT Box can work with free open source like DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS (get low cost Google's ChromaCast for thousand color patch generation), so this keeps the total cost very low, to enter to 3D LUT display characterization world....while it's working with CalMAN Enthousiast/LightSpace HTL as minimum also.

So for SDR if you have Lumagen PRO (17-Point Cube + 21-Point Grayscale....4934 color points) or eeColor (65-Point Cube....274625 Color Points) it's obviously that you can have more points to specific areas where you display is more problematic and generally use more points (+5000 real measurements) with eeColor, so for SDR is the king of correction.

I have posted the difference in post-calibration verification between 17-Point Cube (4913 color patch measurements) and 21-Point Cube (9261 color patch measurements) here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post51515377

Even if you get Lumagen PRO, you can do only SDR with 3D LUT box with any consumer display, not HDR 4K 3D LUT.

Even if you spend at least $5000 for a Lumagen PRO, you can't do 3D LUT for HDR with consumer displays, because you can't have active 2 tone/gamut tone mappings. (one if the internal display and one from the 3D LUT Box). So even if there will be released an HDR 3D LUT box with $1 price, you cant do HDR with current consumer TV's.

If you calibrate HDR with internal controls and have calibrated 750nits it doesn't mean that gamut mapping starts at 750 nits and above, it's unknown what each model / with each firmware is doing, to LG's it's starting lower. (the idea to use the 3D LUT box only to fix below 750nits will not work)

If you trick the UHD Player that you have a connected 4K HDR display (with HD Linker) so to force it output 4K HDR REC.2020 but remove the metadata from the signal so the TV will not enter to HDR mode...but receive full 2160p ST.2084 REC2020 10bit (so it will not activate any internal tone/gamut mapping) then the LG calibrated peak output is only 450nits, which is not enough for HDR effect. If you do this trick, then yes, you can use create 3D LUT for ST.2048 REC.2020..but for 450nits only.

In an ideal consumer world for HDR, we need to have an option to disable any internal gamut/tone mapping (something broadcasting HDR monitors are doing...since they don't do any mapping internally.)..and use 3D LUT capable devices (like Lumagen PRO) to do all the stuff with a proper software like LightSpace, so the TV to be able to output the same peak output (750nits) with or without HDR signal.

FSI's Monitors CEO, has found a service menu setting in LG 2017 C7 model which it can enable the full display peak output (750-800 nits) without requiring HDR metadata over the HDMI connection and without triggering a ST2084 EOTF. If this work then you will be able to use Lumagen PRO to create a 3D LUT 2160p with HDR for LG 2017 OLED and once more info will be available, it will be tested for LG 2016 models also, here Steve Shaw posted about this: http://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/i...-hdr-tvs.8625/
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A
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post #1318 of 2005 Old 04-04-2017, 02:21 AM
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Also yes... 349 for international delivery, but with WHAT? because if they send it with DHL/Fedex/EMS then when it comes to spain, they will make me pay 21% more than that price just on customs!, cause those methods always cost that much xD
It's posted using USPS so it's handled by national post offices to each country. If you need more details about import taxes/shipping etc, send msg here: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A
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post #1319 of 2005 Old 04-04-2017, 02:26 AM
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Well, until next year i have no more money left to spent so... Anyway, knowing myself i know i'm gonna spent hours and hours and hours touching that 20 point balance until i reach the best DeltaE2000 values i can manually, probably if it arrives by tomorrow or friday i'll be the entire night calibrating the TV for sure
A good read about hunting dE is there: http://www.lightillusion.com/delta-e.html

Having 0.1dE average in 21-Point Grayscale doesn't guarantee that the skintones will be look correct, they can have large errors, other colors also.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A
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post #1320 of 2005 Old 04-04-2017, 02:36 AM
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I was reading about one of the 2017 models and they were writing about how gamut naming has been changed to reflect what it is actually doing. On the 2017s, Normal is changed to Automatic.

O.K. Kewl.

So why was the default setting "Wide" ????

Not that it matters but does this make any sense to anyone else?

Did they just presume that the majority of content would be Wide?????
In a blind test using random people of all ages, more people will like more the Wide setting than the Normal, because when the TV's are available at stores, the customers will select the more colorful and most impressive, this is how industry works, the manufacturers want more sales, this is why Wide is the default, because it's more impressive to people not familiar with that calibration stuff.

Normal will provide a slight oversaturated REC.709 coverage while Wide will provide the largest possible (native) so it will oversaturate a lot the colors if you watching HD/Full HD content (blu-ray/sat/cable etc..) which use REC.709.

Here is the CIE Chart of LG 65E6, Wide Gamut @ SDR:



Here is the CIE Chart of Normal Gamut @ SDR:



LG has put the Wide option @ SDR mode for a reason, since these displays are not only a great choice for consumer market but there also selling to professional market.

There post-production studios which have started to replace their older plasma or grade 1 LCD with these LG's (for client view mainly), so they use Wide option there; for SDR @ ISF mode to calibrate for DCI-P3 or use 3D LUT display characterization to provide the best possible color accuracy; bypassing LG's poor parametric CMS controls.

For HDR mode, about Normal vs. Wide, both will provide the same (native primaries) gamut coverage, the largest these TV's can display, but the problem is that in Wide it's boosting the lower saturation levels (make them more saturated), so for HDR the Normal is the only correct setting.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration S/W: LightSpace ZRO / HCFR
S/W: ColourSpace INF, LightSpace XTP, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, ChromaPure
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box P/G: Murideo Six-G, DVDO AVLab TPG
Meter: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A
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