***Official B/C/E/G6P OLED Calibration Thread - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 2010 Old 06-21-2017, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Thanks. So if I'm not planning on messing with the CMS, probably best to just leave color at 50?
Stay at 50, just check if you have Color Clipping using a proper pattern, if you see that you have clipping try to reduce the Contrast, if it's not fixed see about reducing the Color.

Here are some images I designed to showcase what you are checking when are you looking to some basic patterns all of us are using for pre/post calibration verification, with an RGB Cube Space presentation.

Using the Contrast Flashing Bars Pattern, you are checking this area:



Using the Advanced Contrast Flashing Bars Pattern, you are checking additionally the RGBCMY also:



Using the 7-Color Clipping Bars Pattern to prevent clipping of each color channel (WRGBCMY), this sometimes can be fixed be removing some additionally clicks from the contrast control also, you are checking these areas:


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post #1682 of 2010 Old 06-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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Interesting info, thanks! I think I pretty much have everything dialed in nicely. I didn't mess with CMS, but did the basic settings, and then ran through grayscale and gamma. I'm even happy with the shadow detail. Starting with gamma 2.2 and shooting for a 2.3 power law from 10 IRE and up worked well.

Anyone mess with the 2017 models yet? Just wondered if they had the tendency to push green?
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post #1683 of 2010 Old 06-21-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Interesting info, thanks! I think I pretty much have everything dialed in nicely. I didn't mess with CMS, but did the basic settings, and then ran through grayscale and gamma. I'm even happy with the shadow detail. Starting with gamma 2.2 and shooting for a 2.3 power law from 10 IRE and up worked well.

Anyone mess with the 2017 models yet? Just wondered if they had the tendency to push green?
On the latest Home Theater Geek podcast (ep 358), Scott Wilkinson discusses calibrating a 65C7 with calibrator David Abrams.
They loved it, and specifically mentioned that the CMS is much improved:
https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-g...utostart=false


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post #1684 of 2010 Old 06-22-2017, 05:51 AM
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Anyone using the Judd Voss white point in their HCFR calibrations or leaving it at D65?
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post #1685 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 12:21 PM
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I have been lurking but have not seen this addressed. I have a 65E6P that I am considering getting calibrated. My question for those who have done OLEDs for a while is that once calibrated, will a firmware upgrade result in changes that would cause the set to need to be re-calibrated?

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post #1686 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marks-sf View Post
I have been lurking but have not seen this addressed. I have a 65E6P that I am considering getting calibrated. My question for those who have done OLEDs for a while is that once calibrated, will a firmware upgrade result in changes that would cause the set to need to be re-calibrated?

Mark
No firmware updates do not alter your current TV settings.

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post #1687 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD_99 View Post
No firmware updates do not alter your current TV settings.
Rick, thanks for the quick response. I was not perhaps clear. I realize that the settings themselves would not be touched by the upgrade. My concern is that picture processing, tone-mapping or other such "fixes" could alter the calibration.

Thanks,

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post #1688 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marks-sf View Post
Rick, thanks for the quick response. I was not perhaps clear. I realize that the settings themselves would not be touched by the upgrade. My concern is that picture processing, tone-mapping or other such "fixes" could alter the calibration.

Thanks,

Mark
Ahhh sorry for misunderstanding your question. I do my own calibrations using a profiled i1D3 colorimeter and I have not noticed any differences in picture processing, tone mapping etc when going from one TV firmware to another. In fact I just upgraded my C6P firmware to the latest version on LG's web site and everything looks exactly the same to my eyes.

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post #1689 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 02:18 PM
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Anyone happen to have a good i1D3 correction profile for these OLEDs? I've been using my meter in nonrefresh mode up until now. The grayscale looks pretty good, but thinking maybe I could get it a little better with a proper profile.
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post #1690 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 02:47 PM
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@ConnecTEDDD

Can the CMS controls and Tint+Color settings be used sparingly for HDR calibration on the C6?

I used very minor CMS adjustments plus slight changes to Color and Tint for SDR calibration to get color, especially skin tones, in line without any negative impact or artifacts. Wondering if the same can be done for HDR10.

Thanks

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post #1691 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 03:12 PM
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Found this matrix correction. Looks like it was done on a C6, which is what I have. May give it a try.
Attached Files
File Type: zip LG C6 (i1 Pro 2 + I1D3 Rev B).zip (549 Bytes, 17 views)
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post #1692 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
@ConnecTEDDD

Can the CMS controls and Tint+Color settings be used sparingly for HDR calibration on the C6?

I used very minor CMS adjustments plus slight changes to Color and Tint for SDR calibration to get color, especially skin tones, in line without any negative impact or artifacts. Wondering if the same can be done for HDR10.

Thanks

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In HDR10 the adjustments are very different and they affect more than SDR, not useful any change in HDR mode.

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post #1693 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
In HDR10 the adjustments are very different and they affect more than SDR, not useful any change in HDR mode.
But the Color and Tint controls are OK to adjust, right?

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post #1694 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
But the Color and Tint controls are OK to adjust, right?

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They are broken, try to use them and validate with measurements and real-content to experience the issues.

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post #1695 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
They are broken, try to use them and validate with measurements and real-content to experience the issues.
So WB adjustments for HDR are the only thing worth focusing on?

In your opinion is there much noticeable difference to even be accomplished by adjusting the HDR WB? Last time I tried it using Masciolas patterns and CalMAN, I found I could make very little changes without introducing noticeable color tint into the the grayscale ramp...

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post #1696 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 05:43 PM
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So WB adjustments for HDR are the only thing worth focusing on?

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Yes, they work but get ready to experience some issues with HDR RGB Balance due to un-alighment of adjusting controls points and the artifacts which can introduced with wrong adjustment, looking only the dE charts is not enough, each adjusting point has specific +- adjusting range which will not introduce problems, always check with real content.

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post #1697 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, they work but get ready to experience some issues with HDR RGB Balance due to un-alighment of adjusting controls points and the artifacts which can introduced with wrong adjustment, looking only the dE charts is not enough, each adjusting point has specific +- adjusting range which will not introduce problems, always check with real content.
I added this to my post:

"In your opinion is there much noticeable difference to even be accomplished by adjusting the HDR WB? Last time I tried it using Masciolas patterns and CalMAN, I found I could make very little changes without introducing noticeable color tint into the the grayscale ramp..."

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post #1698 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
I added this to my post:

"In your opinion is there much noticeable difference to even be accomplished by adjusting the HDR WB? Last time I tried it using Masciolas patterns and CalMAN, I found I could make very little changes without introducing noticeable color tint into the the grayscale ramp..."

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Try only to fix RGB Balance errors, not luminance errors trying to follow the PQ HDR EOTF curve.

There is unaligh so when you try to fix specific pattern and adjust control which slighly affect that pattern then errors will be introduced.

The first step has to remain untouched and the second only +-1 max, the other have larger range but I don't remenber exactly because I don't own LG OLED, but when I calibrated there zero problems with real content, it took from me more time to verify various content from time to measure and do adjustments. You have to sacrifise a low dE to prevent error in real content.

Below is the post-calibration of a 65E6 in HDR10 mode which is not producing any problem visually:




Looking only the good dE charts is not enough, it requires to check various movies/scenes to check if the calibration settings are not introducing problem to picture.

A good approach to do this, is the following method I performed....For example, to compare and locate if the calibration adjustments are not introducing problems, lets say that you have used HDR Dark mode to calibrate RGB Balance.....copy the basic settings (OLED Light/Contrast/Brightness/Color/Sharpness/ColorSpace etc....) and all other enhancements disabled to HDR Bright.

So the only difference between HDR Dark vs. HDR Bright modes, it will be only the adjustments of White Balance the HDR Dark has. Bring the LG preset mode selection screen where with arrow key up -> ok -> arrow key down -> ok....you swap between these 2 modes.....Pause movie stills with various colors/shades and swap between these 2 memories to check that all are fine....with gradation and other artifacts.

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post #1699 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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Thanks @ConnecTEDDD !

One final question, this time dealing with SDR WB:

Since the LG has luminance controls that can be adjusted for SDR WB, is it best to tailor the desired target gamma by adjusting with RGB and only using luminance sparingly (so huge value ranges for the RGB controls but very little use of the luminance control)?
Or is it better to use RGB to only fix balance errors and then use the luminance controls to hit the desired gamma curve (so less value changes for RGB but large use of the luminance controls)?

Thanks!

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post #1700 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks @ConnecTEDDD !

One final question, this time dealing with SDR WB:

Since the LG has luminance controls that can be adjusted for SDR WB, is it best to tailor the desired target gamma by adjusting with RGB and only using luminance sparingly (so huge value ranges for the RGB controls but very little use of the luminance control)?
Or is it better to use RGB to only fix balance errors and then use the luminance controls to hit the desired gamma curve (so less value changes for RGB but large use of the luminance controls)?

Thanks!

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Using Lumiance adjustments were introducing some issues in real content also so I decided to not use them...and using only 2-Point and then 20-Point RGB Balance controls only in SDR mode.

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post #1701 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Using Lumiance adjustments were introducing some issues in real content also so I decided to not use them...and using only 2-Point and then 20-Point RGB Balance controls only in SDR mode.
Perfect. That's what I did for SDR, just double checking.

Thanks!

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post #1702 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Found this matrix correction. Looks like it was done on a C6, which is what I have. May give it a try.
I tried this matrix correction, and I think it looks good. It's not a major difference from using nonrefresh with no correction at all. Grayscale ramps looked a little red in parts before, and this seems to have helped. I also ended up going a bit lower with gamma. I left 5 IRE alone at 2.2, and was shooting for 2.35 for everything else.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Using Lumiance adjustments were introducing some issues in real content also so I decided to not use them...and using only 2-Point and then 20-Point RGB Balance controls only in SDR mode.
I thought using luminance for grayscale was OK? I haven't noticed any issues, but I lowered most of them instead of raising.
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post #1703 of 2010 Old 06-23-2017, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks @ConnecTEDDD !

One final question, this time dealing with SDR WB:

Since the LG has luminance controls that can be adjusted for SDR WB, is it best to tailor the desired target gamma by adjusting with RGB and only using luminance sparingly (so huge value ranges for the RGB controls but very little use of the luminance control)?
Or is it better to use RGB to only fix balance errors and then use the luminance controls to hit the desired gamma curve (so less value changes for RGB but large use of the luminance controls)?

Thanks!

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Urban legend. ChadB used luminance controls to adjust the gamma first and fine-tuned with RGB. There is no problem at all with using them. LG is capable of simple integer math.

To prove it, I put all ChadB's ISF Dark values into a spreadsheet and normalized them to the RBG values with luminance 0. Then, the values were applied to Cinema mode. I could then toggle between the two modes. There was no difference and no artifacts.

- Rich
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post #1704 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Urban legend. ChadB used luminance controls to adjust the gamma first and fine-tuned with RGB. There is no problem at all with using them. LG is capable of simple integer math.

To prove it, I put all ChadB's ISF Dark values into a spreadsheet and normalized them to the RBG values with luminance 0. Then, the values were applied to Cinema mode. I could then toggle between the two modes. There was no difference and no artifacts.

- Rich
They are adding processing issues here, visible in real content with motion not only still pictures, once you noticed after some time then your eyes will be easily detect it again.

LG generally has proven that they don't know how to design calibration controls system, it's not only for 2016 models it's for the last decade models.

Not all people are able to understand some stuff, it needs experience that you are getting from years looking and calibrating many different displays/models.

For example, the issue with mid-low end luminance levels tracking is something that 0.1% of the LG users have noticed without taking measurements: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post51385729

Each region or each production date model of the same display model may have differences internally to panel/modules used; so to some models the issues can be more noticed while to others may have improved.

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post #1705 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
I thought using luminance for grayscale was OK? I haven't noticed any issues, but I lowered most of them instead of raising.


Hi, the dE calculation you have selected in HCFR is not counting the Luminance errors to the calculation.

Go to HCFR Preferences -> Advanced -> change the Grayscale handling to ''Absolute Y w/gamma'', to include to the dE calculation the gamma errors also.

Now you are using the default setting (Absolute Y w/o gamma) which report to you only RGB balance errors.

Look at each % Grey data the meter reports, there is a Y (which shows to you the measured luminance) and the Y target (which show the target luminance), and re-adjust your settings to fix gamma errors also.

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post #1706 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
They are adding processing issues here, visible in real content with motion not only still pictures, once you noticed after some time then your eyes will be easily detect it again.

LG generally has proven that they don't know how to design calibration controls system, it's not only for 2016 models it's for the last decade models.

Not all people are able to understand some stuff, it needs experience that you are getting from years looking and calibrating many different displays/models.

For example, the issue with mid-low end luminance levels tracking is something that 0.1% of the LG users have noticed without taking measurements: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post51385729

Each region or each production date model of the same display model may have differences internally to panel/modules used; so to some models the issues can be more noticed while to others may have improved.

I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing here. Do you have measurements of the same adjustments, one using the LG luminance controls and another with the same adjustments without. I ran some measurements with and without controls and did not find and change.


Attached is the @chadb calibration of ISF Dark Room on my B6. He used Luminance controls
Later I normalized them and moved the normalized settings to Cinema mode. Both were measured with Calman and there was no significant difference. The CMS controls were not used.


However, per @D-Nice the CMS can be used if you lower the color to 43 and color set to Extended.


- Rich
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post #1707 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing here. Do you have measurements of the same adjustments, one using the LG luminance controls and another with the same adjustments without. I ran some measurements with and without controls and did not find and change.
The thing you don't understand is that problems appear with real content, not with measurements, measurements can be awesome and below 0.2dE2000 average. Internal processing is degrading the signal and adding anomalies. Once you will start noticing then it will be easier to notice them more frequently.

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post #1708 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The thing you don't understand is that problems appear with real content, not with measurements, measurements can be awesome and below 0.2dE2000 average. Internal processing is degrading the signal and adding anomalies. Once you will start noticing then it will be easier to notice them more frequently.
I looked at real content and now on the C7 I see no artifacts.

To believe this is an issue is to believe that LG does something more that add the Luminance value to R, G, and B.
If you have evidence with measurements or images, then provide them.
This rumor began in the UK (with unknown conditions) was made in the UK and now everyone is afraid of them.

Chad knows what he is doing and he has calibrated a lot of OLEDs (including my B6) with Luminance controls.
Believe what you will but I put more time than most into testing the Luminance controls and found no evidence with test patterns, measurements, or content that the luminance controls introduce artifacts. None.

Luminance controls are very different from CMS adjustments. CMS controls with normal color setting cannot be used on the B6. With Extended color at 43, they can be used in a limited manner.

I wanted better color tracking so I upgraded to a C7.

- Rich

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post #1709 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobbydazler View Post
Anyone using the Judd Voss white point in their HCFR calibrations or leaving it at D65?
On my B6, I've not had very much luck with either CIE 32 or for that matter Judd Voss which I think is aimed for the Sony RGB OLEDs (not the new crop of Sony's based on the LG panel)

From my understanding of the matter, LG's WRGB oleds breaks the scheme for traditional white points and what we need is an alternate white point. One approach is to calibrate another display that calibrates correctly, then perceptually match to your LG OLED, measure the new white point off of the LG OLED and use it. Although the human eye is remarkably good at seeing differences in colors (grayscale in this context), it does lead to a lot of subjectivity that didn't really work out for me. Here's a link to perceptual matching if you want to give it a try. http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

For the time being, on my B6, I've use Warm 1 and -3 blue for high 2 point. That gets me closer than any of the instrument measurements. I think I will pursue alternate white points over in the calibration section. You might want to take a look later to see what the responses are.
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post #1710 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:35 AM
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This rumor began in the UK (with unknown conditions) was made in the UK and now everyone is afraid of them.
I don't believe anything I read from any source (they are all rumors), I believe my own eyes only and my own verification, this is why I have opinion only to stuff I have tested.

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