***Official B/C/E/G6P OLED Calibration Thread - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I don't believe anything I read from any source (they are all rumors), I believe my own eyes only and my own verification, this is why I have opinion only to stuff I have tested.
I suggest that owners draw their own conclusion.

The following methodology can be used for verification:
  1. Calibration with Luminance controls.
  2. Put adjustment into a spreadsheet and normalize.
  3. Apply the normalized settings to another input.
  4. Check for differences of artifacts.
  5. Measure and check for differences.
No difference found here.

It is possible that I was testing a different LG model and firmware.
I was continuously upgrading the firmware on my B6.
What display and firmware do you own or have tested?

RTings does not use Luminance controls but uses the broken CMS controls

- Rich

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post #1712 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 07:52 AM
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@RichB

What gamma did Chad B target for you?

When I do a touch up in a few weeks I'm thinking of finally trying a Power Law curve with a preset black level (which is the preset value he uses in his CalMAN workflow) but trying to decide if I want to target 2.35 or 2.4

Right now I'm using a straight 2.3 and love it, but wouldn't mind getting a little bit more pop by raising the mid and high end with a power law curve.

Thanks

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post #1713 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I suggest that owners draw their own conclusion.
Calibration have to include both measurement and final result verification with real content. You can have the best measurements using any kind of adjustment of the available controls but problematic image at the end.

Makes no sense to continue talking about what you see and what I see. No need to agree who is right and who is wrong, everyone can do whatever it's better for his setup and for his eyes when he validate.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #1714 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
@RichB

What gamma did Chad B target for you?

When I do a touch up in a few weeks I'm thinking of finally trying a Power Law curve with a preset black level (which is the preset value he uses in his CalMAN workflow) but trying to decide if I want to target 2.35 or 2.4

Right now I'm using a straight 2.3 and love it, but wouldn't mind getting a little bit more pop by dropping the mid and high end with a power law curve.

Thanks

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
He followed the recommendation from this thread:

Quote:
9. My personal opinion is that the OLEDs do not look natural calibrated to BT1886 (which in this case should be a straight 2.4) gamma. That tends to look too contrasty and lack shadow detail. On the other hand, a straight 2.2 power law gamma can lack depth. CalMAN gives the option of calibrating to a sliding power law gamma, and using this option with a starting point of 2.3-2.35 and specifying a fake black level of .001 to .002 fL depending on the environment and light output produces a very natural and realistic image on these sets.
The display is set to 2.2 and Calman is set with custom power law gamma target or 2.35 with a fake black level.
You can try different black levels which basically pushes the gamma closer to 2.2 coming out of black.

- Rich

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post #1715 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
He followed the recommendation from this thread:


The display is set to 2.2 and Calman is set with custom power law gamma target or 2.35 with a fake black level.
You can try different black levels which basically pushes the gamma closer to 2.2 coming out of black.

- Rich
Thanks. I had read that point but was mistaking when he said "starting point of 2.35" as meaning 5 IRE should start at 2.35 but I am on the same page now.

I'm going to compare some low lit scenes this time around. I chose 2.3 straight as it helped eliminate near black noise at the expense of crushing 0.5% black. Will try a power that starts black at around 2.2/2.25 and compare with what I've been used to on flat 2.3 and go from there.

Thanks again!

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post #1716 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I suggest that owners draw their own conclusion.

The following methodology can be used for verification:
  1. Calibration with Luminance controls.
  2. Put adjustment into a spreadsheet and normalize.
  3. Apply the normalized settings to another input.
  4. Check for differences of artifacts.
  5. Measure and check for differences.
No difference found here.

It is possible that I was testing a different LG model and firmware.
I was continuously upgrading the firmware on my B6.
What display and firmware do you own or have tested?

RTings does not use Luminance controls but uses the broken CMS controls

- Rich
I'm not sure what kind of artifacts the luminance controls can lead to, but I haven't noticed any. They're a huge convenience for me. I'd rather not have to go back through the 20-pt and adjust RGB just to get where I'm already at with luminance.

The only artifacts I really see are near-black noise and some gradient banding, but this is usually with lower-quality content, and that was happening with OOTB settings.
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post #1717 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
I'm not sure what kind of artifacts the luminance controls can lead to, but I haven't noticed any. They're a huge convenience for me. I'd rather not have to go back through the 20-pt and adjust RGB just to get where I'm already at with luminance.

The only artifacts I really see are near-black noise and some gradient banding, but this is usually with lower-quality content, and that was happening with OOTB settings.
Agreed. My experience and at least one professional are with you on this: you can use the luminance controls without issue (with the latest firmware anyway).
They are a great time-saver.

- Rich

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post #1718 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I looked at real content and now on the C7 I see no artifacts.

To believe this is an issue is to believe that LG does something more that add the Luminance value to R, G, and B.
If you have evidence with measurements or images, then provide them.
This rumor began in the UK (with unknown conditions) was made in the UK and now everyone is afraid of them.

Chad knows what he is doing and he has calibrated a lot of OLEDs (including my B6) with Luminance controls.
Believe what you will but I put more time than most into testing the Luminance controls and found no evidence with test patterns, measurements, or content that the luminance controls introduce artifacts. None.

Luminance controls are very different from CMS adjustments. CMS controls with normal color setting cannot be used on the B6. With Extended color at 43, they can be used in a limited manner.

I wanted better color tracking so I upgraded to a C7.

- Rich
Early on, there were issues with the luminance controls on the 2016s. LG fixed that with a firmware update.
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post #1719 of 2010 Old 06-24-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks. I had read that point but was mistaking when he said "starting point of 2.35" as meaning 5 IRE should start at 2.35 but I am on the same page now.

I'm going to compare some low lit scenes this time around. I chose 2.3 straight as it helped eliminate near black noise at the expense of crushing 0.5% black. Will try a power that starts black at around 2.2/2.25 and compare with what I've been used to on flat 2.3 and go from there.

Thanks again!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
I think in a dark room, gamma 2.3-2.4 looks really good on these TVs. The default 2.4 was pretty good on my set OOTB, but it comes out of black too slowly and things were getting crushed. I could raise the 5 IRE luminance, but I'd rather lower things than boost them. Starting with gamma 2.2 gave me much less crush right off the bat. I didn't touch luminance at all at 5 IRE. For everything else, I used an excel sheet to calc a 2.35 power law. For whatever reason, HCFR always measures a slightly lower gamma than what I'm aiming for, but it's close enough. Anyway, here's what I ended up with. I think I'm happy.

Contrast is 85, brightness 51
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post #1720 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 05:30 AM
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Cms and luminance controls are still broken on UK sets . Minor adjustments may look fine on a still image but with a moving picture there is visible added noise and false contouring.
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post #1721 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Cms and luminance controls are still broken on UK sets . Minor adjustments may look fine on a still image but with a moving picture there is visible added noise and false contouring.
Any difference between boosting and cutting luminance? I thought I saw some issues when I raised luminance levels, but lowering them seemed OK.
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post #1722 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 01:23 PM
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@ConnecTEDDD

Any word if there will ever be a DV Golden Reference file available for the 2016 LG OLED's for calibration purposes?
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post #1723 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
@ConnecTEDDD

Any word if there will ever be a DV Golden Reference file available for the 2016 LG OLED's for calibration purposes?
I don't think they will be even released because it will require to adjust using the LG's HDR CMS controls which are broken, so makes no sense to have DV Golden Reference when the calibration controls are not working as expected.

CalMAN 2017 final release will include the capability for all 2017 LG OLED models to measure some required color patches and create special file for Dolby Vision Tone Mapping which you will load it using a USB Stick to one of LG's USB port which will help the Dolby Vision's Display Mapping Engine which is embedded to the display SoC to do the proper tone mapping.

The only hope is to be available something similar for LG 2016 models also.

BTW I was thinking about the same feature @ June 2016 here: ''I believe that that secret/unknown mapping of each display that has been calculated from each display model from the factory based to the display's performance (uncalibrated status) at it's HDR mode, any usage of calibration controls to calibrate the HDR mode will produce poorer color performance, since the display don't know if you have calibrated or not...what clipping point you used... To make things more calibration-friendly, my idea that may work better for the companies is to introduce a menu to each model where the user will enter the measured (calibrated) primaries (xyY) and Peak/Black level output, to help the display make better internal mapping. Also to add the option to disable the internal mapping, to be easier for external 3D LUT devices combined with calibration software to do the whole job''

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 06-25-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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post #1724 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I don't think they will be even released because it will require to adjust using the LG's HDR CMS controls which are broken, so makes no sense to have DV Golden Reference when the calibration controls are not working as expected.

CalMAN 2017 final release will include the capability for all 2017 LG OLED models to measure some required color patches and create special file for Dolby Vision Tone Mapping which you will load it using a USB Stick to one of LG's USB port which will help the Dolby Vision's Display Mapping Engine which is embedded to the display SoC to do the proper tone mapping.

The only hope is to be available something similar for LG 2016 models also.
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

I think at this point, with how lucky I am that my C6 has absolutely no banding or vignetting even down to 2%, I'll wait for 2018 or 2019 at the earliest to look at upgrading. Hopefully by then there will be more DV UHD Blu-ray titles as well... I absolutely loved Despicable Me DV despite having no say in calibrating the picture.

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post #1725 of 2010 Old 06-25-2017, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I don't think they will be even released because it will require to adjust using the LG's HDR CMS controls which are broken, so makes no sense to have DV Golden Reference when the calibration controls are not working as expected.

CalMAN 2017 final release will include the capability for all 2017 LG OLED models to measure some required color patches and create special file for Dolby Vision Tone Mapping which you will load it using a USB Stick to one of LG's USB port which will help the Dolby Vision's Display Mapping Engine which is embedded to the display SoC to do the proper tone mapping.

The only hope is to be available something similar for LG 2016 models also.

BTW I was thinking about the same feature @ June 2016 here: ''I believe that that secret/unknown mapping of each display that has been calculated from each display model from the factory based to the display's performance (uncalibrated status) at it's HDR mode, any usage of calibration controls to calibrate the HDR mode will produce poorer color performance, since the display don't know if you have calibrated or not...what clipping point you used... To make things more calibration-friendly, my idea that may work better for the companies is to introduce a menu to each model where the user will enter the measured (calibrated) primaries (xyY) and Peak/Black level output, to help the display make better internal mapping. Also to add the option to disable the internal mapping, to be easier for external 3D LUT devices combined with calibration software to do the whole job''

It's kind of a sad joke that CMS controls don't work on a TV that goes for thousands of dollars.
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post #1726 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 01:52 AM
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It's kind of a sad joke that CMS controls don't work on a TV that goes for thousands of dollars.
BTW Sony OLED don't have Full CMS controls (Hue/Saturation/Luminance), only Color and Tint.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
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post #1727 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
BTW Sony OLED don't have Full CMS controls (Hue/Saturation/Luminance), only Color and Tint.
I wouldn't expect them to throw in controls like that on a $5000 TV, lol
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post #1728 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
BTW Sony OLED don't have Full CMS controls (Hue/Saturation/Luminance), only Color and Tint.
Ted, could the CMS controls be fixed via a firmware update or is the CMS issue baked into the set's SOC?

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post #1729 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 06:32 AM
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Ted, could the CMS controls be fixed via a firmware update or is the CMS issue baked into the set's SOC?
A lot of years are problematic for all LG's TV's, it's not something new in one way or another, it's by design. (I wish to be working like Samsung's)

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post #1730 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 08:58 AM
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The CMS seemed to take a dive for the worse when HDR and Bt.2020 was introduced. They haven't been perfect but I remember (ymmv) they used to work OK in 2014/2015. At least it's improved in 2017 and will surely get better moving forward. That said, I do wish all the manufacturers could introduce cms controls at say 4 different stimulus levels to combat the skewing of colors on the LG panels. (the W pixel probably has something to do with this?)
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post #1731 of 2010 Old 06-26-2017, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazman2000 View Post
Cms and luminance controls are still broken on UK sets . Minor adjustments may look fine on a still image but with a moving picture there is visible added noise and false contouring.
Any difference between boosting and cutting luminance? I thought I saw some issues when I raised luminance levels, but lowering them seemed OK.
Luminance is the biggest culprit
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post #1732 of 2010 Old 06-27-2017, 01:31 AM
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Using HCFR I have calibrated gamma by dialling in RGB then using luminance control to achieve desired gamma and just used RGB alone to achieve gamma, both pictures look the same to me. Had to reduce RGB/ luminance quite a bit across the range to raise the gamma from 2.2 @5IRE to [email protected] TV set @2.2
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post #1733 of 2010 Old 06-27-2017, 02:57 AM
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Using HCFR I have calibrated gamma by dialling in RGB then using luminance control to achieve desired gamma and just used RGB alone to achieve gamma, both pictures look the same to me. Had to reduce RGB/ luminance quite a bit across the range to raise the gamma from 2.2 @5IRE to [email protected] TV set @2.2
I tweaked RGB for grayscale, and then used luminances for gamma. I read somewhere (I think Chad B. said it) that it wasn't recommended to use luminance on the 2015 models, but it was OK for 2016. I haven't noticed any issues beyond what was there to begin with.

I also started with 2.2 and raised gamma from 10-100 (to around 2.35). It seemed my set needed the most luminance reductions in the 20-60 range. The worst was 40 IRE which needed -27. As for grayscale, the pattern seemed to be: add R and B, and reduce G throughout most of the range.
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post #1734 of 2010 Old 06-27-2017, 04:10 AM
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Here in EU it is not OK to use the luminance-controls for tweaking gamma. We can use RGB only, otherwise you´ll get errors that are visible most of the time.
And the D-Nice "tweak" with extended gamut and color at 43 to make the CMS usable also does not work. The CMS is broken on the 2016 sets here in europe. Dont know why but the firmware should be the same on these models worldwide.... I can get perfect colors only with my eecolor for SDR
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post #1735 of 2010 Old 06-27-2017, 01:29 PM
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Using HCFR I have calibrated gamma by dialling in RGB then using luminance control to achieve desired gamma and just used RGB alone to achieve gamma, both pictures look the same to me. Had to reduce RGB/ luminance quite a bit across the range to raise the gamma from 2.2 @5IRE to [email protected] TV set @2.2
I tweaked RGB for grayscale, and then used luminances for gamma. I read somewhere (I think Chad B. said it) that it wasn't recommended to use luminance on the 2015 models, but it was OK for 2016. I haven't noticed any issues beyond what was there to begin with.

I also started with 2.2 and raised gamma from 10-100 (to around 2.35). It seemed my set needed the most luminance reductions in the 20-60 range. The worst was 40 IRE which needed -27. As for grayscale, the pattern seemed to be: add R and B, and reduce G throughout most of the range.

My greatest luminance reductions were @ 25-70 between -27 & -32. And that's with reducing green at low point -12.
I had a dabble with the CMS but it screwed my grayscale and gamma so reset it which worryingly didn't reset my calibration to how it was before touching the CMS??
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post #1736 of 2010 Old 06-28-2017, 12:22 PM
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Guys, I've been setting gamma to a 2.35 power law (except at 5 IRE). What's the recommended gamma at that IRE level? With the 2.2 preset and grayscale done, I get about 2.2 at 5 IRE with no luminance adjustments. Thinking maybe that's a little bright. Should I shoot for something higher like 2.25 or 2.3?
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post #1737 of 2010 Old 06-28-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Guys, I've been setting gamma to a 2.35 power law (except at 5 IRE). What's the recommended gamma at that IRE level? With the 2.2 preset and grayscale done, I get about 2.2 at 5 IRE with no luminance adjustments. Thinking maybe that's a little bright. Should I shoot for something higher like 2.25 or 2.3?
Preference at that point.

I'd suggest watching a near dark scene that carries some noise (the opening jail cell scenes of Suicide Squad has a lot of new black noise) and see which luminance setting you like best.

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post #1738 of 2010 Old 06-28-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Preference at that point.

I'd suggest watching a near dark scene that carries some noise (the opening jail cell scenes of Suicide Squad has a lot of new black noise) and see which luminance setting you like best.

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Thanks. I'll play with it. Should only need some
minor tweaking. I still see some occasional near black noise, so I could probably make 5 IRE just a little darker. I can barely see a 1% window right now, so may try dropping luminance just a few clicks a make sure I can still see 1%. I'm crushing 0.5% but making that visible seems like a lost cause. If I force it, perfect black is lost and it mainly just reveals near black issues anyway.

**EDIT**

Fooled around some more tonight and got a pretty good cal with gamma at 2.35 from 10 IRE and up. If I don't touch 5 IRE luminance, it naturally falls at 2.22. I observed that I could lower the luminance a little and still see a 1% window in the dark. Since 10 IRE is at -6 luminance, I decided to set 5 IRE to -3. I'll see how it goes, but have a feeling this will work nicely. It's a very fine line between bringing out more shadow detail while not enhancing near-black noise and artifacts.

Last edited by Overrid3; 06-28-2017 at 07:40 PM.
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post #1739 of 2010 Old 06-28-2017, 04:41 PM
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Any tips for color calibrations?

I used a calibration test video & it had the standard white, yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red & blue color strips with small little boxes underneath those color strips.

The instructions say that you are supposed to use a blue color filter (which I have) so that the small boxes match up to the color of the color strips.
The thing is the white, cyan, magenta & blue all show up as blue when using the strip & are easy to calibrate. But the other colors are a dark black-ish color when viewed with the filter. It seems impossible to match them as they are too dark to see. How am I supposed to calibrate them?

On my B6, I basically lowered the luminance of the blue/cyan/magenta a few ticks down so the bars look as close to one solid color.
Saturation & tint didn't seem to make as much changes as luminance did.
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post #1740 of 2010 Old 06-28-2017, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wtfer View Post
Any tips for color calibrations?

I used a calibration test video & it had the standard white, yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red & blue color strips with small little boxes underneath those color strips.

The instructions say that you are supposed to use a blue color filter (which I have) so that the small boxes match up to the color of the color strips.
The thing is the white, cyan, magenta & blue all show up as blue when using the strip & are easy to calibrate. But the other colors are a dark black-ish color when viewed with the filter. It seems impossible to match them as they are too dark to see. How am I supposed to calibrate them?

On my B6, I basically lowered the luminance of the blue/cyan/magenta a few ticks down so the bars look as close to one solid color.
Saturation & tint didn't seem to make as much changes as luminance did.
People have said that the blue filter method doesn't work on these OLEDs. You could probably use the CMS controls, but that's not advisable, either, from what I've read. Supposedly, the CMS system is broken. I just left my color set to 50 since I'd probably make things worse by messing with it. FWIW, I think the calibrator Chad B. wrote somewhere that he's set color to 48 and tint to +2 Green.
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