Is 2-point required if using 10-point? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
  • 1 Post By bmcn
  • 3 Post By Dominic Chan
  • 1 Post By ConnecTEDDD
  • 1 Post By adsl-ryoga
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 Old 02-27-2017, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,109
Mentioned: 409 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11483 Post(s)
Liked: 6793
Is 2-point required if using 10-point?

I am having a friendly discussion in a separate thread regarding the proper way to set the Advanced Color Temperature settings using CalMAN 2016. Please help me clear up my confusion.

My previous Sony displays have only had the 2-point grayscale adjustments. My current Sony (XBR-X940D) now has a 10-point adjustment as well. To set the white balance, I have been first configuring the 2-point settings, and then advancing to the Multipoint grayscale settings to fine-tune the results.

My friend says that if I use the 10-point adjustments, I can skip the 2-point adjustments altogether. My questions are: is this correct, i.e. are the 2-point adjustments no longer necessary? And second, if I do use the 2-point adjustments, the validity of the final results after adjusting the Multi-point settings as well are not affected, are they?
AustinJerry is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 Old 02-27-2017, 10:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bmcn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,446
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2248 Post(s)
Liked: 3169
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
My questions are: is this correct, i.e. are the 2-point adjustments no longer necessary? And second, if I do use the 2-point adjustments, the validity of the final results after adjusting the Multi-point settings as well are not affected, are they?
Jerry, set 2 pt. first and then work on the 10 pt. Changes to 2 pt. after setting 10 pt. will require another 10 pt. run. Buried in the HCFR thread are a few posts covering this topic. Thanks again for all your help with REW.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-software.html
AustinJerry likes this.

Last edited by bmcn; 02-27-2017 at 10:36 AM.
bmcn is offline  
post #3 of 12 Old 02-27-2017, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,109
Mentioned: 409 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11483 Post(s)
Liked: 6793
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Jerry, set 2 pt. first and then work on the 10 pt. Changes to 2 pt. after setting 10 pt. will require another 10 pt. run. Buried in the HCFR thread are a few posts covering this topic. Thanks again for all your help with REW.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-software.html
Thank you for the kind words.

Testing for understanding. While I am aware that adjusting the 2-point after setting the 10-point will require re-doing the 10-point. But my original question was, can I skip the 2-point altogether, or should the 2-point be used to "rough-in" the while balance before proceeding to the 10-point?
AustinJerry is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 Old 02-27-2017, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 7,322
Mentioned: 142 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5180 Post(s)
Liked: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Testing for understanding. While I am aware that adjusting the 2-point after setting the 10-point will require re-doing the 10-point. But my original question was, can I skip the 2-point altogether, or should the 2-point be used to "rough-in" the while balance before proceeding to the 10-point?
It is advisable to first use 2-pt to get close to where you want, then use 10-pt to fine-tune. If you use 10-pt alone to make large adjustements, you can end up with a bumpy curve without realizing it (i.e, errors at 55, 65, 75 etc).

However, when adjusting the 2-pt, you should run the complete sweep to confirm that there's an overall improvement; i.e., do not monitor only 20/80 (or 30/70) as other points can potentially get worse.
AustinJerry, Rolls-Royce and bmcn like this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-27-2017 at 11:18 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #5 of 12 Old 03-01-2017, 04:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,770
Mentioned: 218 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3467 Post(s)
Liked: 4293
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am having a friendly discussion in a separate thread regarding the proper way to set the Advanced Color Temperature settings using CalMAN 2016. Please help me clear up my confusion.

My previous Sony displays have only had the 2-point grayscale adjustments. My current Sony (XBR-X940D) now has a 10-point adjustment as well. To set the white balance, I have been first configuring the 2-point settings, and then advancing to the Multipoint grayscale settings to fine-tune the results.

My friend says that if I use the 10-point adjustments, I can skip the 2-point adjustments altogether. My questions are: is this correct, i.e. are the 2-point adjustments no longer necessary? And second, if I do use the 2-point adjustments, the validity of the final results after adjusting the Multi-point settings as well are not affected, are they?
Hi,

When you have both available RGB-Balance calibration controls (2-Point + 10-Point) then you will always have better results when you will use both of these controls.

Start with 2-Point RGB-Balance and use 100% White and 30% Gray or 5% Gray (if you have a panel where it's 5% Gray adjustment is producing problems to near black performance...and it's better to leave it untouched...like LG OLED's for example).

After multi-passes of these 2 points....move to 20-Point for micro adjustments. The reason why you will have better results are a lot...you will save a lot of time of additional adjusting because when you do 2-Point first, the 20-point will require less adjustment from step to step....also it's always better to use as less adjustments of calibration controls as possible because consumer TV electronics are not working so great and there a lot of time where large adjustments are producing problems to the image (beyond post-calibration measurements...not visible there...since you measure only a few points), your image will look less processed when you use less calibration controls changes. Display companies they are not paying much attention to provide excellent calibration controls because this will increase it's manufacturing cost, since the reality is that only a small percentage of people are calibrating their sets...most of them are just using the factory default settings.

Additionally, to provide even better final result, use similar adjustment method of the settings value from step to step between the points...I mean don't have large and very different values between close points...for example 50% Gray -10R 0G 5B and 55% +10 R 0G 5B....try to fix each error based to the same adjustment logic of nearby steps, to keep the correction values linear from step to step...you can use an excel to write down what values you have set to all points to have a global overview of your settings...and do full pass of all grayscale steps.....check the RGB/Gamma charts...and make the adjustments you believe that will minimize the errors after the end of each grayscale measurement run.

Also sometimes when you do 10/20-Point Grayscale internal display adjustments, to some displays when you change the brightness/contrast setting from it's default settings, this creates a unalign of the calibration controls to the areas they are affecting...for example you can display a 55% pattern, to change RGB balance and your changes to interact to 52% or to 58% Gray etc....not so much to 55% you are displaying/tweaking.

Think a scenario that you are hiring to your living room 5 different pro calibrators to calibrate your display, all of them will use only your meters to calibrate, not their own meters, after the end of each calibrator session, if you write down the menu settings each calibrator used, if you compare at the end these 5 menu setting lists you will see that they are not matching, each one calibrator used different method to calibrate your display.

The same time that the 5 post-calibration reports can be so similar... the image will be slight different... if you swap these 5 memories you will see differences...

This is happening because each calibrator used other method to provide you low dE numbers, If you load some Color Reproduction Patterns, probably you will notice differences in color ramps, clipping bars, color steps etc..

The best of these 5 calibrations settings is the one that the calibrator used with the best way the combination of your internal display controls.

Each available internal calibration control settings that a display has are not always working as expected...Some controls are introducing image anomalies, others have safe working range (for example they are not introducing problems if you use them only at +-2 value of adjustments only), other display controls must not using them, because they are breaking the display color management system or producing non-linearity to display performance, banding, strange artifacts etc.

A calibrator because he sees that kind of problems daily, knows better what to do to provide beyond the dE numbers a better final result visually also, this is something you gain from experience (can't read book/forums/tutorials), you need multiple experience with various displays/tests to gain that experience.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #6 of 12 Old 03-01-2017, 05:34 AM
Senior Member
 
HammerJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

When you have both available RGB-Balance calibration controls (2-Point + 10-Point) then you will always have better results when you will use both of these controls.

Start with 2-Point RGB-Balance and use 100% White and 30% Gray or 5% Gray (if you have a panel where it's 5% Gray adjustment is producing problems to near black performance...and it's better to leave it untouched...like LG OLED's for example)..
Quick question Ted, doing a 2pt balance with 100% white and 10%Gray, is it okay to use this combination?

I am thinking about it because my set has blue color displacement and the 20% grey uses the 10% blue on my set in the 10pt caibration.
HammerJoe is offline  
post #7 of 12 Old 03-01-2017, 05:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,770
Mentioned: 218 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3467 Post(s)
Liked: 4293
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerJoe View Post
Quick question Ted, doing a 2pt balance with 100% white and 10%Gray, is it okay to use this combination?

I am thinking about it because my set has blue color displacement and the 20% grey uses the 10% blue on my set in the 10pt caibration.
Yes, if this provide better results and less problems to your setup then it's OK.
HammerJoe likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #8 of 12 Old 01-18-2019, 06:31 AM
Member
 
adsl-ryoga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

When you have both available RGB-Balance calibration controls (2-Point + 10-Point) then you will always have better results when you will use both of these controls.

Start with 2-Point RGB-Balance and use 100% White and 30% Gray or 5% Gray (if you have a panel where it's 5% Gray adjustment is producing problems to near black performance...and it's better to leave it untouched...like LG OLED's for example).

After multi-passes of these 2 points....move to 20-Point for micro adjustments. The reason why you will have better results are a lot...you will save a lot of time of additional adjusting because when you do 2-Point first, the 20-point will require less adjustment from step to step....also it's always better to use as less adjustments of calibration controls as possible because consumer TV electronics are not working so great and there a lot of time where large adjustments are producing problems to the image (beyond post-calibration measurements...not visible there...since you measure only a few points), your image will look less processed when you use less calibration controls changes. Display companies they are not paying much attention to provide excellent calibration controls because this will increase it's manufacturing cost, since the reality is that only a small percentage of people are calibrating their sets...most of them are just using the factory default settings.

Additionally, to provide even better final result, use similar adjustment method of the settings value from step to step between the points...I mean don't have large and very different values between close points...for example 50% Gray -10R 0G 5B and 55% +10 R 0G 5B....try to fix each error based to the same adjustment logic of nearby steps, to keep the correction values linear from step to step...you can use an excel to write down what values you have set to all points to have a global overview of your settings...and do full pass of all grayscale steps.....check the RGB/Gamma charts...and make the adjustments you believe that will minimize the errors after the end of each grayscale measurement run.

Also sometimes when you do 10/20-Point Grayscale internal display adjustments, to some displays when you change the brightness/contrast setting from it's default settings, this creates a unalign of the calibration controls to the areas they are affecting...for example you can display a 55% pattern, to change RGB balance and your changes to interact to 52% or to 58% Gray etc....not so much to 55% you are displaying/tweaking.

Think a scenario that you are hiring to your living room 5 different pro calibrators to calibrate your display, all of them will use only your meters to calibrate, not their own meters, after the end of each calibrator session, if you write down the menu settings each calibrator used, if you compare at the end these 5 menu setting lists you will see that they are not matching, each one calibrator used different method to calibrate your display.

The same time that the 5 post-calibration reports can be so similar... the image will be slight different... if you swap these 5 memories you will see differences...

This is happening because each calibrator used other method to provide you low dE numbers, If you load some Color Reproduction Patterns, probably you will notice differences in color ramps, clipping bars, color steps etc..

The best of these 5 calibrations settings is the one that the calibrator used with the best way the combination of your internal display controls.

Each available internal calibration control settings that a display has are not always working as expected...Some controls are introducing image anomalies, others have safe working range (for example they are not introducing problems if you use them only at +-2 value of adjustments only), other display controls must not using them, because they are breaking the display color management system or producing non-linearity to display performance, banding, strange artifacts etc.

A calibrator because he sees that kind of problems daily, knows better what to do to provide beyond the dE numbers a better final result visually also, this is something you gain from experience (can't read book/forums/tutorials), you need multiple experience with various displays/tests to gain that experience.
First off: I really like your posts, very detailed and informative!

As I mentioned in the other Thread about the A9F calibration, I let a professional do a picture calibration on my TV. The whole experience was so exciting that only after the calibrator had already left I started to notice some posterization artifacts creeping into some of my favorite movies. We did the 2-point RGB balance first and then went on to fine-tune with the 20-point RGB settings to get better results in Calman. But in the pursuit of a perfect chart, the 20-point RGB adjustments were a little too excessive for my panel and ultimately led to the artifacts. Once I dialed down only the 20-point corrections one by one, I saw the artifacts vanish.

It was very interesting to finally see for myself the results of aiming for the best values on a chart versus the artifacts that can occur when overdoing the corrections.

I will have the professional calibrator come over once more and give it another shot, but this time aiming for more subtle corrections. I think my biggest problem is my goal to calibrate the picture on the basis of an output that is brighter than 100-120 nits. People might roll their eyes on this, but even in a dark viewing environment, I'm aiming for the maximum brightness the panel is capable of, so calibration in my case might not work as I would like it to.

Anyway, no matter the results, to me witnessing the whole process of calibrating a panel is enjoyable in its own right and worth the investment
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
adsl-ryoga is offline  
post #9 of 12 Old 03-12-2019, 04:43 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to hatorisyuri
Red face TCL P6US 10 pt White Balance

Hi!

Hope this thread is still active.

I need advice or assistance on how to setup 10 pt. white balance on a TCL P6US. I currently have set the 2 pt. balance but I am still looking for a better setting.

Any suggestion?


Thank you so much.
hatorisyuri is offline  
post #10 of 12 Old 03-12-2019, 04:46 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to hatorisyuri
Quote:
Originally Posted by adsl-ryoga View Post
First off: I really like your posts, very detailed and informative!

As I mentioned in the other Thread about the A9F calibration, I let a professional do a picture calibration on my TV. The whole experience was so exciting that only after the calibrator had already left I started to notice some posterization artifacts creeping into some of my favorite movies. We did the 2-point RGB balance first and then went on to fine-tune with the 20-point RGB settings to get better results in Calman. But in the pursuit of a perfect chart, the 20-point RGB adjustments were a little too excessive for my panel and ultimately led to the artifacts. Once I dialed down only the 20-point corrections one by one, I saw the artifacts vanish.

It was very interesting to finally see for myself the results of aiming for the best values on a chart versus the artifacts that can occur when overdoing the corrections.

I will have the professional calibrator come over once more and give it another shot, but this time aiming for more subtle corrections. I think my biggest problem is my goal to calibrate the picture on the basis of an output that is brighter than 100-120 nits. People might roll their eyes on this, but even in a dark viewing environment, I'm aiming for the maximum brightness the panel is capable of, so calibration in my case might not work as I would like it to.

Anyway, no matter the results, to me witnessing the whole process of calibrating a panel is enjoyable in its own right and worth the investment
Hi!

Any advice on how to set 2 pt. and 10 pt. balance on a TCL P6US? Your suggestion is highly appreciated!

hatorisyuri is offline  
post #11 of 12 Old 03-13-2019, 07:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
randal_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Not all displays allow you to go from a 2 point to a 10 point calibration. There are some displays that ignore the 2 point when doing a 10 point. As some suggest, do the 2 to the 10. To see if you display is as the one that ignores previous calibrations do just the 10 point and see what the results are.



Experience is the best teacher.
randal_r is offline  
post #12 of 12 Old 03-14-2019, 08:41 AM
Senior Member
 
keyoctave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

When you have both available RGB-Balance calibration controls (2-Point + 10-Point) then you will always have better results when you will use both of these controls.

Start with 2-Point RGB-Balance and use 100% White and 30% Gray or 5% Gray (if you have a panel where it's 5% Gray adjustment is producing problems to near black performance...and it's better to leave it untouched...like LG OLED's for example).

After multi-passes of these 2 points....move to 20-Point for micro adjustments. The reason why you will have better results are a lot...you will save a lot of time of additional adjusting because when you do 2-Point first, the 20-point will require less adjustment from step to step....also it's always better to use as less adjustments of calibration controls as possible because consumer TV electronics are not working so great and there a lot of time where large adjustments are producing problems to the image (beyond post-calibration measurements...not visible there...since you measure only a few points), your image will look less processed when you use less calibration controls changes. Display companies they are not paying much attention to provide excellent calibration controls because this will increase it's manufacturing cost, since the reality is that only a small percentage of people are calibrating their sets...most of them are just using the factory default settings.

Additionally, to provide even better final result, use similar adjustment method of the settings value from step to step between the points...I mean don't have large and very different values between close points...for example 50% Gray -10R 0G 5B and 55% +10 R 0G 5B....try to fix each error based to the same adjustment logic of nearby steps, to keep the correction values linear from step to step...you can use an excel to write down what values you have set to all points to have a global overview of your settings...and do full pass of all grayscale steps.....check the RGB/Gamma charts...and make the adjustments you believe that will minimize the errors after the end of each grayscale measurement run.

Also sometimes when you do 10/20-Point Grayscale internal display adjustments, to some displays when you change the brightness/contrast setting from it's default settings, this creates a unalign of the calibration controls to the areas they are affecting...for example you can display a 55% pattern, to change RGB balance and your changes to interact to 52% or to 58% Gray etc....not so much to 55% you are displaying/tweaking............

You know Ted, what you described is also pertinent to adjusting an audio equalizer. I have used many 10,15 and 30 band eq’s in both home and stage settings. I never looked at adjusting the RGB balance controls with that in mind. To bad they don’t use a ‘parametric’ adjustment to the individual 10/20 pt RGB controls so you could zero in on an offending value. Though the 2pt control is kinda like that, allowing user set points but set wide apart, kinda like bass and treble controls.

LG 55”C8 OLED Oppo BDP-103 Sony X800m2
Denon X3300W 5.2.2 PSB/M&K speakers
Samsung 55HU8550/SEK-3500U
Sonos 5.1 Playbase/sub/surrounds
CalMAN Home Enthusiast/i1display pro oem/i1 pro 2/Videoforge HDMI-2 TPG
keyoctave is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off