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post #151 of 163 Old 09-19-2018, 01:49 AM
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[email protected]ConnecTEDDD and all:
I have a B6:
  1. Not clear to me whether the suggested LG method for calibrating grey scale at 540 nits (resulting Oled light for me is 76), is only for calibration or is also for vision (i.e. 100 should be taken back after calibration phase).
  2. It looks to me that for calibrating colours (to the little extend that B6 allows), rec 2020/P3 should be preferred instead of rec 2020 (better colour space coverage). I understand it also a matter of choice. But what puzzles me is that those two have (slight) different white point, so somehow affecting the Gray scale measure.
    PS: my assumption is that various grey scale patterns (e.g. Masciolla) are based on rec 2020.

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post #152 of 163 Old 09-19-2018, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
[email protected]ConnecTEDDD and all:
I have a B6:
  1. Not clear to me whether the suggested LG method for calibrating grey scale at 540 nits (resulting Oled light for me is 76), is only for calibration or is also for vision (i.e. 100 should be taken back after calibration phase).
  2. It looks to me that for calibrating colours (to the little extend that B6 allows), rec 2020/P3 should be preferred instead of rec 2020 (better colour space coverage). I understand it also a matter of choice. But what puzzles me is that those two have (slight) different white point, so somehow affecting the Gray scale measure.
    PS: my assumption is that various grey scale patterns (e.g. Masciolla) are based on rec 2020.
Hi, when you calibrate for HDR10, you have to use patterns with metadata which will emulate how the LG's internal tone mapping will work when you will watch HDR10 movie content. So the 540nits entry the LG is providing (totally useless) it's not emulating any real movie, since the HDR10 movies have mastering display luminance 1000/1100/4000/10000 nits.

You have to choose between 1000 or 4000 nits (of mastering display peak) metadata patterns, not for 540 nits.

Also the OLED Light and Contrast (and brightness) has to stay to the default position (100/100) and not reduce OLED Light according to LG's instructions, the internal baked PQ tracking and tone mapping is based to these 2 default settings (work like bypass settings for internal mapping to work as expected), once you will reduce OLED Light you will see that your color errors will be increased a lot, when you will take gamut measurements.

Even the percentage numbers of LG 2016/2017 documents are not matching the digital levels of the Dolby's golden reference ST.2048 targets, so there is mismatch of 10bit values represent the percentages. I have checked all digital levels compared to Dolby's Golden Reference values and the percentages don't match the digital values (some are correct, only a few). LG's are 0.1% off.

If you reduce Contrast/OLED from LG, you will reduce the peak output, OLED/Contrast @ 100 provides better color tracking at these default values.

Using LG instructions for HDR calibration it will increase your color errors and provide lower peak output but better Grayscale and gamma tracking, but the color errors are more important from grayscale errors in that case.

After some testing performed using a 65E6 @ HDR mode, lowering the OLED Light, can improve the Grayscale but increase the color errors. To compare what is happening you have to take 5-Point Saturations (or 10-Point)

If you keep the Contrast/OLED @ 100, and calibrated the RGB levels for HDR, then you get an average Grayscale of about 1.6dE2000 and the errors are coming from gamma (brighter) at mid range while the RGB balance is near perfect....you get about 670nits calibrated.

If you run a 5-Point Saturation with targets DCI P3 inside a REC2020 (look CalMAN HDR workflow) then you get about ~2.0dE2000 average.

If you keep the Contrast @ 100 and reduce OLED about 80? (I don't remember the exact value...to get 540nits) and calibrated the RGB levels for HDR, then you get an average Grayscale of about ~1.0dE2000 (or lower)and the errors of gamma are reduced at mid range while the RGB balance is near perfect....you get about 540nits calibrated.

If you run a 5-Point Saturation with targets DCI P3 inside a REC2020 (look CalMAN HDR workflow) then you get about ~4.0dE2000 average.

About mastering display black/white levels the movies are sending to the LG, the E6 (EU) I have checked (before long time) with 50-Point Grayscace runs, sending any metadata (10000 nits or 4000 nits etc) it was not affecting anything the PQ tracking, I have checked about 60-80 different metadata, even different min (black) numbers from 1 nits up to 6.5nits, or every combination of MaxCLL and MaxFALL. (TV's tone mapping is not affected by any MaxCLL and MaxFALL value)

The only metadata was affecting the PQ tracking was the 540nits max display, which was changing a bit the RGB balance and PQ so I don't recommend anyone to calibrate using 540nits mastering peak becasue no movie has that metadata, with 1000nits it will be ok to use.(even if you send custom metadata with 650nits you will have the same output as 1000nits metadata)

2) About CMS in HDR, leave it untouched, only setting the correct colorspace setting is required, which is the normal gamut for 2016 models.

Here is the 5-Point Saturation of DCI-P3 inside a REC.2020:





DCI-P3 is not a consumer colorspace, so you should not aim for that colorspace when you calibrating any consumer device.

REC.2020 is the only colorspace you have to aim for HDR10 calibration, because displays can't cover that colorspace completely, we are using lower Saturation level (50%) and lower Stimulus Level (50%) patterns.

REC.2020 is being used as container, most of current UHD movies has been mastered using DCI-P3 primaries with REC.2020 D65 White Point calibrated mastering monitors, so colors beyond that gamut coverage are not being used (currently) to most of the movies.

Because most of the consumer HDR displays are not covering 100% the DCI-P3 primaries (inside REC.2020 container), this is why we are using REC.2020 with 50% Saturation patterns for HDR CMS, because xy of 50% Saturation REC.2020 is undersaturated from 100% Saturation of DCI Primaries (inside REC.2020 container), so it's a target that you can reach when the CMS controls of the display are working as expected.

You can use DCI-P3 Saturation tracking inside a REC.2020 container to evaluate the display tracking of DCI-P3 inside REC.2020 (where previously have calibrated the display with REC.2020 as target colorspace)

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post #153 of 163 Old 10-26-2018, 08:07 AM
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I would like to have your suggestons about how (and if)proceeding with my B6.
I have done HDR calibration from based on 2pts service menu modifying cold (alligned to warm) and modified to have best RGB match at 100 IRE. I also done some little cut for fixing low IRE. Then I have modified used LG Code Values always checking ramps for being sure about unexpected colorations.
You can see Luminance and RGB chart, and the relevant HCFR file.


I see a knee (a excess) in luminance: Should I try to fix it, or what I ahve got is fair enough? Also noted that whites in color checking suffer the same issue.
Same kind of question about RGB. I have found quite impossible to fix at 10 IRE (254 CV operates at 20/25 IRE, if I have got correctly).



Many thanks for any help/suggestions
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post #154 of 163 Old 10-26-2018, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I have done HDR calibration from based on 2pts service menu modifying cold (alligned to warm) and modified to have best RGB match at 100 IRE. I also done some little cut for fixing low IRE.
Because most of content is in low IRE levels you could try to make IRE 0-70 even better and sacrifice IRE 75-100 (>1000 nits) if needed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I see a knee (a excess) in luminance: Should I try to fix it, or what I ahve got is fair enough?
I`m assuming your luminance chart was measured using 1000 nit metadata patterns. I found with my B6 that it follows PQ curve better with 4000 nit metadata. If you are using Masciola`s HDR patterns you find those at 06. Misc Patterns > 09. Different nit levels > 02. 4000 nits and try if you have similar results. I also found that the 20 pt controls don`t have range to correct the luminance error and also greyscale ramp looks ugly after correction. And there is the mismatch of the 20 pt controls and test patterns which makes corrections even harder. You could try lowering OLED from 100 to about 80 but it lowers the peak luminance output too. So maybe better to forget about it
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post #155 of 163 Old 10-26-2018, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northrob View Post
Because most of content is in low IRE levels you could try to make IRE 0-70 even better and sacrifice IRE 75-100 (>1000 nits) if needed.




I`m assuming your luminance chart was measured using 1000 nit metadata patterns. I found with my B6 that it follows PQ curve better with 4000 nit metadata. If you are using Masciola`s HDR patterns you find those at 06. Misc Patterns > 09. Different nit levels > 02. 4000 nits and try if you have similar results. I also found that the 20 pt controls don`t have range to correct the luminance error and also greyscale ramp looks ugly after correction. And there is the mismatch of the 20 pt controls and test patterns which makes corrections even harder. You could try lowering contrast from 100 to about 80 but it lowers the peak luminance output too. So maybe better to forget about it


Is it possible for you to post the settings of the HDR calibration on the B6?

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post #156 of 163 Old 10-26-2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Is it possible for you to post the settings of the HDR calibration on the B6?
I used Service Menu 2 pt + User Menu 20 pt correction. I suspect there is some difference with default RGB values of different SM preset temperatures between TV sets so I doubt my settings are not useable in other sets

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post #157 of 163 Old 01-23-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^
Ted,
I agree, you can locate spikes by doing a more fine grayscale scan but to get around the problem you are taking about, using the normal 21 pt scan, you need to create a custom 21 point scan using the 10 bit code values from LG using the levels editor. This avoids scanning in the unnecessary higher ire levels. I've done so many of these 2017 sets that most of the time, once you do the 2 pt HDR, the 21 point is so close that i'm not really sure that you can actually see the difference with your eye if you tried to make it even better. But as you say, doing a finer scan once you do this can reveal any spikes that you can then address. The 2016 sets are another story.

@jrref , can you elaborate on how you did your 2 pt HDR on the 2017 sets? I've done SDR calibration along with CMS and still trying to figure out a way to calibrate hdr10. I have purchased masciola's hdr10 disc but don't really know what steps to take with it. Thanks.
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post #158 of 163 Old 01-29-2019, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I would like to have your suggestons about how (and if)proceeding with my B6.
I have done HDR calibration from based on 2pts service menu modifying cold (alligned to warm) and modified to have best RGB match at 100 IRE. I also done some little cut for fixing low IRE. Then I have modified used LG Code Values always checking ramps for being sure about unexpected colorations.
You can see Luminance and RGB chart, and the relevant HCFR file.

I see a knee (a excess) in luminance: Should I try to fix it, or what I ahve got is fair enough? Also noted that whites in color checking suffer the same issue.
Same kind of question about RGB. I have found quite impossible to fix at 10 IRE (254 CV operates at 20/25 IRE, if I have got correctly).
The PQ tracking is something the TV is responsible internally, you can't really fix such high Luminance errors, because large adjustments will introduce many issues with real content, so its better idea to have a 'less-digital-processed-look and issue-free look' and apply only RGB balance errors adjustments, there specific working range per control where they will not introduce issues with real content. Some controls have +-1, others +-2, others +-6 etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by northrob View Post
I`m assuming your luminance chart was measured using 1000 nit metadata patterns. I found with my B6 that it follows PQ curve better with 4000 nit metadata. If you are using Masciola`s HDR patterns you find those at 06. Misc Patterns > 09. Different nit levels > 02. 4000 nits and try if you have similar results. I also found that the 20 pt controls don`t have range to correct the luminance error and also greyscale ramp looks ugly after correction. And there is the mismatch of the 20 pt controls and test patterns which makes corrections even harder. You could try lowering OLED from 100 to about 80 but it lowers the peak luminance output too. So maybe better to forget about it
I have send about 100 custom metadata to 2016 OLED, and the output was exact the same using any possible combination and measuring with 50-Point Grayscale. Seems that they are not affected by any mastering black/white level or maxCLL/MaxFALL values. They only change the tracking if you send 540 nit metadata (it will change the RGB balance slightly, but there no movie which are using that metadata (basically there only one movies with 540nit metadata, the Stagecoach: The Texas Jack Story 4K), but there no point to use 540 nit patterns since later you will never watch 540 nit metadata movie, so calibrating with 4000/1000 patterns (trying to fix RGB balance errors only) its the only option.

When you reduce OLED Light, you can improve PQ tracking but this will add errors to your color gamut, so its not recommended, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56831672

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post #159 of 163 Old 01-29-2019, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I have send about 100 custom metadata to 2016 OLED, and the output was exact the same using any possible combination and measuring with 50-Point Grayscale. Seems that they are not affected by any mastering black/white level or maxCLL/MaxFALL values.
I know you have stated that earlier but my finding with two different metadata indicates otherwise. Any idea how that can be? Newer software with my B6 perhaps?
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post #160 of 163 Old 01-29-2019, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northrob View Post
I know you have stated that earlier but my finding with two different metadata indicates otherwise. Any idea how that can be? Newer software with my B6 perhaps?
I have checked E6 with older firmware, not current. When I will re-check with current firmware I will update.

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post #161 of 163 Old 04-04-2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Stuff are different with HDR from SDR.

In SDR we use Gamma curve as transfer function (where you can set it to 2.2/2.4/BT1886 or whatever value you like....having in calculation the display Black/Peak White level to generate each digital level luminance levels (so we check with Brightness/Contrast to setup the near black and prevent clipping of near and above 100% reference white), but in HDR the PQ Curve transfer function has fixed numbers from 0-10.000nits

There no contrast/brightness calibration for HDR, you leave the mode default values because based to these values the internal tone/gamut mapping is based.

So any pattern for contrast or brightness is only useful for evaluation purpose not for 'adjusting something' purpose.
Thanks for this Tedd, i just read this. I am beginning my HDR calibration. This post is super useful.

I read that i SHOULD NOT adjust the default OLED, contrast & brightness values that is in each HDR picture mode. Is that correct? I'm confused as I was a firm believer that we needed different settings and brightness of the screen for different viewing environments.....

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post #162 of 163 Old 06-05-2019, 07:57 AM
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I was wondering if there is any specific guidance for calibrating with ChromaPure v3 and a Lumagen Radiance Pro?

I was attempting to calibrate my LG 55B7A OLED this past weekend, and the SDR 1D LUT & 3D LUT worked fine.

However, I had issues with the results of the HDR 1D LUT & 3D LUT calibration. I even tried only a 1D LUT for HDR, and that did not work either. Upon searching, I found this thread, and subsequently learned a lot about the intricacies of calibrating (or leaving things alone) these displays.

Thank you for any insight.

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post #163 of 163 Old 07-05-2019, 02:31 AM
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Tried to calibrate HDR10/DV on my LG C8. Have to say:

After 2pt-whitebalance the Cinema-Mode (DV) and Technicolor-Mode (HDR10) are pretty good. Touching 20pt-Calibration is dangerous if you dont know what you are doing. I messed up my picture by trying too hard to get beautiful charts. Using CMS was not really needed, i didnt see any difference between default and calibrated CMS-values.
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