LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings - Page 106 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3151 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 03:43 AM
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Anyone know why this test pattern by R.Masciola:


doesn't correctly clip at 1000nits on my and all of my friends' B7/C7? The 2000 and 4000nits patterns are clipping correctly but the 1000nits one goes even farther than the 4000nits pattern. I've tested it on FOUR different players, including the TV's internal player and it's always the same result. This is on the technicolor-preset (everything default, Dynamic Contrast off).

Why is this TV treating 1000nits data so weird
We've also tried it on a C8 and C9 and there it clips correctly at the 1000nits mark.

I can't imagine it's just one of those things LG never bothered to fix or implement correctly in the first place. Seems like a pretty big deal if it indeed doesn't tonemap 1000nits movies correctly.
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post #3152 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Anyone know why this test pattern by R.Masciola:

doesn't correctly clip at 1000nits on my and all of my friends' B7/C7? The 2000 and 4000nits patterns are clipping correctly but the 1000nits one goes even farther than the 4000nits pattern. I've tested it on FOUR different players, including the TV's internal player and it's always the same result. This is on the technicolor-preset (everything default, Dynamic Contrast off).

Why is this TV treating 1000nits data so weird
We've also tried it on a C8 and C9 and there it clips correctly at the 1000nits mark.

I can't imagine it's just one of those things LG never bothered to fix or implement correctly in the first place. Seems like a pretty big deal if it indeed doesn't tonemap 1000nits movies correctly.
If the 2017 models are working like 2018/2019, where the internal tone mapping engine is expecting and doing better PQ-EOTF tracking expecting that the panel has 700 nits peak output, then try to calibrate RGB balance and reduce OLED light to have calibrated 700 nits and look the pattern again to see if it will clip @ 1000 nits using that pattern.

Dynamic Contrast has to be @ OFF to disable the dynamic tone mapping.

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post #3153 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If the 2017 models are working like 2018/2019, where the internal tone mapping engine is expecting and doing better PQ-EOTF tracking expecting that the panel has 700 nits peak output, then try to calibrate RGB balance and reduce OLED light to have calibrated 700 nits and look the pattern again to see if it will clip @ 1000 nits using that pattern.

Dynamic Contrast has to be @ OFF to disable the dynamic tone mapping.

Dynamic Contrast is always off.


I'm not sure I can follow your train of thought. For the 1000nits pattern it's flashing bars the 2018 and 2019 do not flash and this is only happening for the 1000nits pattern, not the 2000 or 4000 pattern. On the 2017 models, the 1000nits pattern almost looks like it's 4000nits.
Nevertheless, I tried lowering "OLED Light" on the 1000nits pattern and even at OLED Light @ 20(!) I can still see the bars flashing.
I just don't understand if this is what's supposed to happen and if so, I can't quite understand why.
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post #3154 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Dynamic Contrast is always off.

I'm not sure I can follow your train of thought. For the 1000nits pattern it's flashing bars the 2018 and 2019 do not flash and this is only happening for the 1000nits pattern, not the 2000 or 4000 pattern. On the 2017 models, the 1000nits pattern almost looks like it's 4000nits.
Nevertheless, I tried lowering "OLED Light" on the 1000nits pattern and even at OLED Light @ 20(!) I can still see the bars flashing.
I just don't understand if this is what's supposed to happen and if so, I can't quite understand why.
The 2018/2019 models tone mapping according to the incoming HDR10 metadata is following that approach: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58608526

Just in 2018 models the values are default and you can't change them, while in 2019 models you can send custom parameters.

The idea was from you to see if the 2017 models working like 2018, but as you have checked, confirms that they are not.
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post #3155 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The idea was from you to see if the 2017 models working like 2018, but as you have checked, confirms that they are not.
I see, thanks.


I still don't understand what's happening though. Doesn't this indeed mean 2017 models do not properly tonemap 1000nits movies? Having bars flash way past the 1000nit mark, doesn't that essentially make most 1000nits movies appear "too dim" on 2017 models?
I'm having a hard time believing this is the case and nobody making a big stink about it. Most movies are mastered to 1000nits.
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post #3156 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
I see, thanks.

I still don't understand what's happening though. Doesn't this indeed mean 2017 models do not properly tonemap 1000nits movies? Having bars flash way past the 1000nit mark, doesn't that essentially make most 1000nits movies appear "too dim" on 2017 models?
I'm having a hard time believing this is the case and nobody making a big stink about it. Most movies are mastered to 1000nits.
Take a full grayscale sweep by comparing 1000 vs. 4000 mastering peak metadata patterns and you will find out more how the TV is tracking the PQ-EOTF.

There a lot of stuff where they are not perfect when its coming to HDR with several models of all years.

If you see that using 4000 nits patterns, your TV is tracking better the PQ at higher nits (compared to 1000 nit patterns) then use HD Fury and force/send 4000 nit mastering metadata when you will watch a 1000 nit movie and this will reduce the problem you have and your picture will look better.
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post #3157 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
this will reduce the problem you have
Okay but I've tried it on a total of FIVE 2017 models (B7 and C7) from friends and they all have this problem. Friends with C8 and C9 and they do not have that issue.
I'm trying to understand if this is an issue or I'm interpreting the pattern wrong. It seems weird to me an issue like this (2017 models tonemapping 1000nits movies to 4000nits!) hasn't been noticed by anyone in all this time. I find that hard to believe.
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post #3158 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Take a full grayscale sweep by comparing 1000 vs. 4000 mastering peak metadata patterns and you will find out more how the TV is tracking the PQ-EOTF.

There a lot of stuff where they are not perfect when its coming to HDR with several models of all years.

If you see that using 4000 nits patterns, your TV is tracking better the PQ at higher nits (compared to 1000 nit patterns) then use HD Fury and force/send 4000 nit mastering metadata when you will watch a 1000 nit movie and this will reduce the problem you have and your picture will look better.
This is something I have noted with my B7 and HDFury. When i force 4000nits mastering metadata HDR content looks like DV content. Tested this with Arrivals and Mad Max Fury. But what I noticed with 1000 nits is that content is way too bright compared to DV.

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post #3159 of 3181 Old 11-09-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Okay but I've tried it on a total of FIVE 2017 models (B7 and C7) from friends and they all have this problem. Friends with C8 and C9 and they do not have that issue.
I'm trying to understand if this is an issue or I'm interpreting the pattern wrong. It seems weird to me an issue like this (2017 models tonemapping 1000nits movies to 4000nits!) hasn't been noticed by anyone in all this time. I find that hard to believe.
I'm not talking that only 'you' have this problem, just its 'you' who report that behavior, so all users with the same FW as you have tested, they may all have the same same issue.

Just it happens, the most of the users to not perform such more detailed testing, for that reason it may haven't reported again that issue by other users.

I don't think that LG is still supporting these models via FW updates, for that reason I suggested to take these measurements first and then by forcing an HDFury to send a fixed HDR10 metadata for your TV.

Test some other peak output also, for example send 540 nit mastering display.

Seems that 2017 LG's had 3 fixed PQ-EOTF strategies, as the 2017 PDF calibration notes say. (540/1000/4000), so in theory the 540 nit mastering display peak it may have tone mapping starting from higher, if you measure 3 times the HDR10 grayscale with 540/1000/4000 patterns you will find out.
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post #3160 of 3181 Old 11-10-2019, 08:20 PM
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Long tim lurker....I have a 55C7 which I love. Joined the forum looking for this specific info but with over 3000+ pages it was impossible. Gigantic sports fan that watches via Roku Ultra on a 1G stream. I use HDR. Can everyone advise me on what calibration settings are best for sport (football) via HDR? #AlwaysLookingToImprove
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post #3161 of 3181 Old 11-11-2019, 11:45 PM
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Have a look here:

LG 2017 OLEDs - Calibrated Settings for Xbox One X - PS4 Pro / webOS (SDR/HDR/DV)

All gaming HDR docs were slightly updated to v7.3.1 just adding a description note in their titles for better understanding, especially for newcomers.

Both Options 1a and 1b remain the best HDR presets/config for gaming, therefore both are now tagged as "Recommended" , with the following short descriptions:

  • Option 1a - (Much brighter/A bit less Accurate);
  • Option 1b - (A bit more Accurate/Noticeably dimmer).


The description for:

  • Option 2 - (Brightest/Less Accurate/A bit higher Input Lag). The "Less Accurate" is more pronounced here due to forced Wide Gamut and severe highlight clipping. Overall it's not worth the recommendation, but it's still there for people who wants the maxiumum HDR brightness no matter what, while keeping input lag as low as possible (even if a bit higher than HDR Game presets).

You can pick your sweetest poison, and enjoy this (still) amazing TV.
Personally I directly compared HDR Game (on a 65C7) using Option 1a to calibrated HDR Game on a 65C9 using DTM and final results were very comparable.

Have fun
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post #3162 of 3181 Old 11-12-2019, 01:48 PM
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@ConnecTEDDD I’m doing the SDR pre-calibration procedure on my B7 using your test patterns played back by an Oppo 203 player. I reset ISF Expert (Dark) to defaults to start.

Using names from [this menu](https://www.displaycalibrations.com/...play_Setup.png), for Brightness Flashing Bars I stop seeing 16 flashing at brightness 52 from my seating position, but I do see it flashing up close. At 51 I don’t see it flashing up close. Which is a better choice? Also, are nearly all of Advanced Brightness Flashing Bars supposed to be dark? Do I need to do cmeter-based verification of the black level?

For Contrast Flashing Bars, I had to lift contrast from 85 to 99 before 235 stopped flashing. However, when I go to Advanced Black & White Flashing Bars after lifting the white point, I can’t see dark bars below 18 because my eyes have adjusted to the white on the lower half of the image. Is this normal?

Does Gamma need to be set before setting the black and white points? I don’t perceive a big difference between 2.2 and BT.1886, the default for ISF Expert (Dark).

Finally, for the Advanced Sharpness pattern, the default H and V Sharpness is 10. I don’t notice changes until I move sharpness to 30, when some of the black lines get darker, and I can notice halo-ing at max sharpness. Should I leave these alone at 10? I think there may be some scaling artifacts from the 1920->3840 conversion that the player does.
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post #3163 of 3181 Old 11-16-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by vmladenov View Post
@ConnecTEDDD I’m doing the SDR pre-calibration procedure on my B7 using your test patterns played back by an Oppo 203 player. I reset ISF Expert (Dark) to defaults to start.

Using names from [this menu](https://www.displaycalibrations.com/...play_Setup.png), for Brightness Flashing Bars I stop seeing 16 flashing at brightness 52 from my seating position, but I do see it flashing up close. At 51 I don’t see it flashing up close. Which is a better choice? Also, are nearly all of Advanced Brightness Flashing Bars supposed to be dark? Do I need to do cmeter-based verification of the black level?

For Contrast Flashing Bars, I had to lift contrast from 85 to 99 before 235 stopped flashing. However, when I go to Advanced Black & White Flashing Bars after lifting the white point, I can’t see dark bars below 18 because my eyes have adjusted to the white on the lower half of the image. Is this normal?

Does Gamma need to be set before setting the black and white points? I don’t perceive a big difference between 2.2 and BT.1886, the default for ISF Expert (Dark).

Finally, for the Advanced Sharpness pattern, the default H and V Sharpness is 10. I don’t notice changes until I move sharpness to 30, when some of the black lines get darker, and I can notice halo-ing at max sharpness. Should I leave these alone at 10? I think there may be some scaling artifacts from the 1920->3840 conversion that the player does.
Hi, I have replied to all your questions but since for each question I posted a long but very detailed reply, I decided to reply to my disk thread, so the info will be useful for other users also: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58824132
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post #3164 of 3181 Old 11-16-2019, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmladenov View Post
Finally, for the Advanced Sharpness pattern, the default H and V Sharpness is 10. I don’t notice changes until I move sharpness to 30, when some of the black lines get darker, and I can notice halo-ing at max sharpness. Should I leave these alone at 10? I think there may be some scaling artifacts from the 1920->3840 conversion that the player does.
I agree with Ted. Do not leave it at 10, the default is processed.

Change it to 0. It is well documented that "0" is the setting which does not do anything. You can use free 4k-resolution test patterns to verify this.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Dynamic Contrast is always off.


I'm not sure I can follow your train of thought. For the 1000nits pattern it's flashing bars the 2018 and 2019 do not flash and this is only happening for the 1000nits pattern, not the 2000 or 4000 pattern. On the 2017 models, the 1000nits pattern almost looks like it's 4000nits.
Nevertheless, I tried lowering "OLED Light" on the 1000nits pattern and even at OLED Light @ 20(!) I can still see the bars flashing.
I just don't understand if this is what's supposed to happen and if so, I can't quite understand why.


Hi guys,

It was my understanding that in the 2017 LG OLED models that the Dynamic Contrast setting was the (inappropriately named) control for the internal tone mapping on the sets.

If that is accurate then with that setting of ‘Off’, then the internal tone mapping is disabled?

Thanks for any guidance.

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post #3166 of 3181 Old 11-16-2019, 11:06 AM
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Tone mapping can never be turned off.

You might be thinking of "dynamic tone mapping", which is a small tweak whereby the TV analyses the incoming HDR10 picture instead of just trusting the metadata. I don't have a 2017 model but I'm sure the answer to that question has already been discussed a thousand times on this thread, do a search :-)

But the TV always does tone mapping of some sort.
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post #3167 of 3181 Old 11-16-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Okay but I've tried it on a total of FIVE 2017 models (B7 and C7) from friends and they all have this problem. Friends with C8 and C9 and they do not have that issue.
I'm trying to understand if this is an issue or I'm interpreting the pattern wrong. It seems weird to me an issue like this (2017 models tonemapping 1000nits movies to 4000nits!) hasn't been noticed by anyone in all this time. I find that hard to believe.
I spent some time evaluating this yesterday. I find the problem of the C7 not following the right clipping only when using Ryan's disc or patterns. When using the Spears and Munsil UHD disc it clips correctly depending on the pattern metadata. 600/1000/2000/4000/10000nits. On Ryan's disc no matter which pattern i use the Oppo always report 1000nits, whereas on the S&M disc Oppo reports the right metadata depending on the nits chosen. Will investigate more soon but it appears to be something in the mastering of Ryans disc that trips up the C7.

All with Dynamic Tone Mapping off

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post #3168 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post
I spent some time evaluating this yesterday. I find the problem of the C7 not following the right clipping only when using Ryan's disc or patterns. When using the Spears and Munsil UHD disc it clips correctly depending on the pattern metadata. 600/1000/2000/4000/10000nits. On Ryan's disc no matter which pattern i use the Oppo always report 1000nits, whereas on the S&M disc Oppo reports the right metadata depending on the nits chosen. Will investigate more soon but it appears to be something in the mastering of Ryans disc that trips up the C7.
I ruled R.Masciola's patterns out as an error since it shows up correctly on C8 and C9 for 1000, 2000, and 4000. On the C7s I tested 2000 and 4000 worked and only 1000 behaved wonky. It's weird you're having issues with all patterns. Have you tried to copy the mp4/m2ts files to a USB drive and play them directly on the TV?
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post #3169 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 08:59 AM
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Hey guys, report the exact file name of Ryan's pattern and which one from S&M UHD disk are you testing.

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post #3170 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hey guys, report the exact file name of Ryan's pattern and which one from S&M UHD disk are you testing.
For R.Masciola:

11. HDR Clipping Grayscale 1,000 nit_HDR10.mp4 (under 06. Miscellaneous Patterns > 15. HDR Clipping Test Patterns):
clips at 1000 on C8 and C9 / clips at 4000 on C7

12. HDR Clipping Grayscale 2,000 nit_HDR10.mp4
clips at 2000 on C7, C8, C9

14. HDR Clipping Grayscale 4,000 nit_HDR10.mp4
clips at 4000 on C7, C8, C9


11. HDR Clipping Grayscale 1,000 nit_HDR10.mp4 (reencoded to 800nits as Max Mastering Display Luminance and MaxCLL)
clips at 800 on C7, C8, C9

11. HDR Clipping Grayscale 1,000 nit_HDR10.mp4 (reencoded to 1200nits)
clips at 1200 on C7, C8, C9

11. HDR Clipping Grayscale 1,000 nit_HDR10.mp4 (reencoded to 801nits)
clips at 800 on C8 and C9 / clips at 4000 on C7

11. HDR Clipping Grayscale 1,000 nit_HDR10.mp4 (reencoded to 1199nits)
clips at 1200 on C8 and C9 / clips at 4000 on C7


C7 on the latest firmware (05.80.35). Default technicolor profile, Dynamic Contrast Off. Internal USB player as well as HDMI-fed sources.


Unfortunately, I don't have the Spears & Munsil UHD. I think a friend does though, I'll have to ask to borrow it.
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post #3171 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 09:53 AM
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For R.Masciola:
What REV_0xx?

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post #3172 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by connecteddd View Post
what rev_0xx?

REV_025 (should be the latest one)
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post #3173 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 08:15 PM
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I ruled R.Masciola's patterns out as an error since it shows up correctly on C8 and C9 for 1000, 2000, and 4000. On the C7s I tested 2000 and 4000 worked and only 1000 behaved wonky. It's weird you're having issues with all patterns. Have you tried to copy the mp4/m2ts files to a USB drive and play them directly on the TV?
Will test all this in detail and report when I hv the time this week. I stopped checking when I found the behaviour I observed using the S&M UHD Benchmark disc (contrast pattern).
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post #3174 of 3181 Old 11-18-2019, 08:26 PM
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Hey guys, report the exact file name of Ryan's pattern and which one from S&M UHD disk are you testing.
Ted,

I used the contrast pattern on the S&M UHD Benchmark disc and changed the peak from 600/1000/2000/4000/10000 by using the down arrow button. That changes the pattern to match the metadata.

I also used Ryan's disc (so must be very old version) and not patterns of checking the clipping of the various levels. I did find that it seemed to clip at ~4000 on his disc, for all the versions he had on the contrast pattern.

I did not test the patterns thru the USB and all was done from the Oppo 203 and with discs only.

I will try to get and post more info when I get the chance.
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post #3175 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 02:47 AM
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Ted,

I used the contrast pattern on the S&M UHD Benchmark disc and changed the peak from 600/1000/2000/4000/10000 by using the down arrow button. That changes the pattern to match the metadata.
Do you mean this one?



This has REC.2020 Primaries and 1000 nit mastering display peak with 0.0001 nit black (1000 nits maxCLL & 400 nits maxFALL)

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post #3176 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 03:04 AM
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Do you mean this one?



This has REC.2020 Primaries and 1000 nit mastering display peak with 0.0001 nit black (1000 nits maxCLL & 400 nits maxFALL)
Ted,

This is the 1000nits pattern. The same kind of pattern exists for 600nits/2000nits/4000nits/10000nits on the disc.

The pattern shifts accordingly to resolve the highest level ie if 10000nits is selected then the highest level will be 940 in the pattern.

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post #3177 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post
Ted,

This is the 1000nits pattern. The same kind of pattern exists for 600nits/2000nits/4000nits/10000nits on the disc.

The pattern shifts accordingly to resolve the highest level ie if 10000nits is selected then the highest level will be 940 in the pattern.
Are we talking for the exact same as design pattern or you are talking for that one:


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post #3178 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 03:41 AM
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It's the 1st pattern Ted.

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post #3179 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post
It's the 1st pattern Ted.


I found this one, REC.2020 Primaries and 10000 nit mastering display peak with 0.0001 nit black (10000 nits maxCLL & 400 nits maxFALL).

Flashing bars are not having the same values with previous pattern.

Do you mean that you have checked the pattern with 10000 nits flashing bars but with 1000 nit mastering display metadata?

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post #3180 of 3181 Old 11-19-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


I found this one, REC.2020 Primaries and 10000 nit mastering display peak with 0.0001 nit black (10000 nits maxCLL & 400 nits maxFALL).

Flashing bars are not having the same values with previous pattern.

Do you mean that you have checked the pattern with 10000 nits flashing bars but with 1000 nit mastering display metadata?
Ted,

With Dynamic Contrast Off, when I select this pattern on the C7, I am resolving the flashing till level 936 or so (hard to see the flashing past this point). The Max Luminance that the Oppo shows is 10000nits and 0.0001nit for Min Luminance.

Same thing happens when I select the 1000 nits pattern, then the flashing pattern resolves till about 719 or so and the Oppo shows Max Luminance of 1000nits.

I believe its working as it should at least for the S&M disc.

Its not behaving the same for Ryan's disc though
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