LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 3274 Old 01-06-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Why don't you roll back to an older firmware release?

I don't have the procedure in front of me but I've read the 7 series can still use an alternate method of firmware flashing which allows you to roll back to older versions.
LG doesn't provide a download of older firmware and it's not even clear when they silently did this change. I'd probably also need to find the one that matches my exact model number. Plus, I'd miss out on some of the actual bugfixes.

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My C7 is not using the latest official LG firmware So I am unable to test this to confirm your findings I'm afraid.
Have you not updated your firmware in over a year? I'm sure it came out some time after the 2018 series' release.

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Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post
What meters and software were used?
It's in the post right above the table: i1Display Pro. As for software, I used HCFR to read the sensor's light output. It's not like it reads a different value than CalMAN.
And while the colorimeter might not be as accurate as some more expensive ones, multiple measurements during a session or even on different days yielded consistent results.
Plus, when display something like the 5% pattern and then lower the MaxCLL with HDFury on the fly, you can see how the pattern's brightness significantly changes.


Guys, just imagine if SDR gamma/luminance tracking was THIS BAD on a modern TV. Especially at that price point. Everyone would make fun of it and the reviews would be terrible.
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post #3242 of 3274 Old 01-06-2020, 10:30 AM
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Have you not updated your firmware in over a year? I'm sure it came out some time after the 2018 series' release.
I’m not using a consumer release firmware.

It may be worth checking out the Russian WebOS forums. They used to keep a back catalogue of previous firmware release, I’m not sure if they still do.
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post #3243 of 3274 Old 01-10-2020, 04:59 AM
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I'm a bit surprised this isn't bothering anyone else. I expected kind of a small uproar, or a the very least, some interest in the issue.
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post #3244 of 3274 Old 01-10-2020, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
I'm a bit surprised this isn't bothering anyone else. I expected kind of a small uproar, or a the very least, some interest in the issue.



Most people have dynamic tone mapping enabled.
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post #3245 of 3274 Old 01-10-2020, 01:51 PM
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Most people have dynamic tone mapping enabled.
Yes, I get it. The post was way too long for most people to actually read it. I could've made it more concise.

DTM does not fix the issue, it has the exact same issues.

The table pretty much shows what Dynamic Tone Mapping does, since it does what the TV would do with static MaxCLL data but for a scene-by-scene based MaxCLL - the end result will be the same.
For example, if a scene has some highlights in the 600nits area, with DTM enabled the tracking of the PQ-EOTF would look similar to the 600nits-row in the table. This also explains why DTM will sometimes boost shadows way too much on 2017 models, as Vincent Teoh demonstrated here. DTM bottoms out at the 501-mark (as I've mentioned in my previous post) and you can see how it's almost three times brighter in shadows as it should be.

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post #3246 of 3274 Old 01-10-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Yes, I get it. The post was way too long for most people to actually read it. I could've made it more concise.



DTM does not fix the issue, it has the exact same issues.



The table pretty much shows what Dynamic Tone Mapping does, since it does what the TV would do with static MaxCLL data but for a scene-by-scene based MaxCLL - the end result will be the same.

For example, if a scene has some highlights in the 600nits area, with DTM enabled the tracking of the PQ-EOTF would look similar to the 600nits-row in the table. This also explains why DTM will sometimes boost shadows way too much on 2017 models, as Vincent Teoh demonstrated here. DTM bottoms out at the 501-mark (as I've mentioned in my previous post) and you can see how it's almost three times brighter in shadows as it should be.


The B7/C7/E7/G7 all use the same M16P chipset, There was some major HDR related upgrades in the 2018 O18 aka Alpha 9 chipset. There was also LG display upgrades in the 2018 panel, That solved some saturation related issues on the 2017 TVs.

If I personally had a 2017 OLED, I would try to watch the Dolby Vision version of content if I could. I’m not trying to defend LG or anything, But a lot of the HDR10 deficiencies in the 2017 TVs that reviewers pointed out, were fixed in the 2018’s because of the new chip capabilities and LGD panel changes.
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post #3247 of 3274 Old 01-11-2020, 02:23 AM
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But a lot of the HDR10 deficiencies in the 2017 TVs that reviewers pointed out
Yes, and LG made 2017s worse with an update after the 2018s came out. All the issues of DTM are now also present for movies with MaxCLL data - which are most movies these days.

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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
If I personally had a 2017 OLED, I would try to watch the Dolby Vision version of content if I could.
I can't really test this due to technical limitations (and lack of deep knowledge about DoVi) but I have an (unfounded) suspicion DoVi content is also not handled properly.
As far as I know DoVi does supply a sort of tonemapping curve for every scene/frame, so in theory it should be isolated from this issue. But there have been lots of instances when I watched Netflix and movies had such boosted shadows (almost like raised black levels) in some scenes that were gone as soon as the camera cut to another angle with different lighting/highlights or just a different scene altogether. At first I thought this was just very poor grading. But after it kept happening in other DoVi content, I plugged in the FireTV from my bedroom (4K Netflix without DoVi/HDR10) and the same scenes had much better blacks. Same thing with overly bright highlights in darker scenes (just like in the table for e.g. the ~1000nits area), sunlight from windows or just some random desk lamp would sort of blind you and make it harder to see the rest of the somewhat dim frame ("Ozark" comes to mind which, again, looked much much better without DoVi/HDR).
This was all after the "raised blacks Dolby Vision"-update too.

Essentially, this TV was sold to us as having near-perfect PQ-EOTF tracking before roll-off begins (the dim 4000nits aside) and this was what basically all reviews agreed upon and what I had when I bought this TV. Now, through LG's shoddy software and their update policy, that near-perfect PQ-EOTF tracking is no longer there and is probably the worst in the entire market. And nobody cares. For all of their great new features the C9 and CX have, this actually makes me not wanting to upgrade, especially to another expensive LG TV. Other manufacturers aren't better with their update policies but at least they don't seem to absolutely ruin their TVs with updates (afaik the dim HDR gaming mode was also through a software update they never fixed/improved again).
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post #3248 of 3274 Old 01-12-2020, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
I'm a bit surprised this isn't bothering anyone else. I expected kind of a small uproar, or a the very least, some interest in the issue.
Have you tried testing the Standard picture mode? It might be the most accurate now (with clipping).

I always found it odd when at times Standard mode would be dimmer than Technicolor with DTM on, but the boosted light level from your tests would explain it...
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post #3249 of 3274 Old 01-12-2020, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacon_67 View Post
Have you tried testing the Standard picture mode? It might be the most accurate now (with clipping).



I always found it odd when at times Standard mode would be dimmer than Technicolor with DTM on, but the boosted light level from your tests would explain it...
Excuse me, so you say that on HDR and Dolby Vision, today's best mode for pq it's Standard mode to dodge the elevated blacks issue? I'm having it too with any movies in my PC with nvidia card on rgb auto setting, and black level in cinema home on HIGH (if I set it LOW, the blacks are perfect, but with black crush on dim scenes), or Netflix with DV content . I don't know what else to do with the banding and elevated black levels...
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post #3250 of 3274 Old 01-14-2020, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bacon_67 View Post
Have you tried testing the Standard picture mode? It might be the most accurate now (with clipping).

I always found it odd when at times Standard mode would be dimmer than Technicolor with DTM on, but the boosted light level from your tests would explain it...
I haven't measured Standard per-se but I did compare it during viewing on a fixed HDMI-signal with the technicolor-preset. When I set the Color Temperature in Standard to W45 (since it lacks any proper white balance adjustments), it looks sort of close to D65. Anyway, yes, it seems to be the most accurate one for HDR10 in terms of PQ-EOTF tracking. However, it has Edge Enhancement on, lacks 2pt white balance calibration, and some other stuff. Plus, the roll-off on highlights is still better on technicolor with fixed ~750cd/m2 MaxCLL, it doesn't completely clip the highlights. I tested some of the scenes from Batman vs. Superman, Mad Max, and Pan that Vincent Teoh usually uses and the clipping is definitely there in those cases, but these are somewhat the "worst case" scenarios of which are few out there.

Edit:
Never mind. Did a bit of testing, and the Standard-preset is influenced by the MaxMDL/MaxCLL data. For example, 4000nits produces severe clipping with overboosted highlights and overboosted shadows while a signal with 750nits is very close to the actual PQ-EOTF. Don't know what that's about. I thought back then when the TV came out I read the Standard-preset basically doesn't do any tonemapping and just hard clips. This is clearly not the case.
I hate this TV.

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post #3251 of 3274 Old 01-28-2020, 02:02 AM
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I'm having difficulty adjusting the CMS for my HTPC input and I thought I'd put a line out for suggestions. Can't seem to get Green or Cyan below 7.4. Turning the controls individually up and down doesn't offer any improvement. HCFR has the Display parameters of RGB, XYZ, xyZ and xyY; I'd really like to know which of these corresponds to Saturation, Tint and Luminance, so I can see the readings change as I adjust the controls.

I have another small problem with Gamma. Because my TV's IRE Luminance controls are only active to 90%, I can get a straight line at 2.4 up to 90% but it dives to 2.1 at 95%. I noticed the high white is a bit washed out and thought this might be the cause. I wonder if there's another control that can indirectly affect this reading?
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post #3252 of 3274 Old 02-06-2020, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
I haven't measured Standard per-se but I did compare it during viewing on a fixed HDMI-signal with the technicolor-preset. When I set the Color Temperature in Standard to W45 (since it lacks any proper white balance adjustments), it looks sort of close to D65. Anyway, yes, it seems to be the most accurate one for HDR10 in terms of PQ-EOTF tracking. However, it has Edge Enhancement on, lacks 2pt white balance calibration, and some other stuff. Plus, the roll-off on highlights is still better on technicolor with fixed ~750cd/m2 MaxCLL, it doesn't completely clip the highlights. I tested some of the scenes from Batman vs. Superman, Mad Max, and Pan that Vincent Teoh usually uses and the clipping is definitely there in those cases, but these are somewhat the "worst case" scenarios of which are few out there.

Edit:
Never mind. Did a bit of testing, and the Standard-preset is influenced by the MaxMDL/MaxCLL data. For example, 4000nits produces severe clipping with overboosted highlights and overboosted shadows while a signal with 750nits is very close to the actual PQ-EOTF. Don't know what that's about. I thought back then when the TV came out I read the Standard-preset basically doesn't do any tonemapping and just hard clips. This is clearly not the case.
I hate this TV.
I think you're overexaggerating a fair bit, considering my 55B7V looks as good as the day I bought it over 2 years ago (if not clearly better) both in SDR, HDR and DV.
I also haven't seen any noticeable HDR tone mapping differences when using HDR Technicolor preset + Active HDR.
Same thing for HDR Game + Dynamic Contrast: Low/Medium/High behaviours.

You should try to "flash" the newest firmware (v5.80.50) using the USB stick + "SURE" Android app method, then factory reset the TV once updated/upgraded and manually dial-in calibrated settings again.
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post #3253 of 3274 Old 02-06-2020, 08:04 AM
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Go away please.
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post #3254 of 3274 Old 02-06-2020, 10:49 AM
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Go away please.
Did you check the webos.ru forums as I suggested for previous release firmwares? I've just looked out of curiosity, and they are still hosting as far back as 04.70.** (** is dependant on region) which was a very early firmware I believe. I did run a couple quick scans on my non consumer release firmware and although there are some issues, not nearly as bad as what you are seeing, so an earlier firmware may help.

http://webos-forums.ru/topic4625.html

Use Google Translate, you'll find the firmware near the bottom of the first post and the link to the download works as I tested it before posting. You will need to use the (free) Sure Universal Remote App on an Android device to rollback the firmware though.

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post #3255 of 3274 Old 02-06-2020, 05:42 PM
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Did you check the webos.ru forums as I suggested for previous release firmwares? I've just looked out of curiosity, and they are still hosting as far back as 04.70.** (** is dependant on region) which was a very early firmware I believe. I did run a couple quick scans on my non consumer release firmware and although there are some issues, not nearly as bad as what you are seeing, so an earlier firmware may help.

http://webos-forums.ru/topic4625.html

Use Google Translate, you'll find the firmware near the bottom of the first post and the link to the download works as I tested it before posting. You will need to use the (free) Sure Universal Remote App on an Android device to rollback the firmware though.
Thanks. Yeah, I had a look back then but I wasn't sure if Netflix and some other apps would still work and even those Dolby Vision fixes were included, and some other concerns. Also, for now I've found a way (actually two different ways, depending on the movie) that holds me over until I'll get a new TV (probably a 2021 Panasonic OLED, LG seems to half-ass most of their features just so they can tout a long list of them to show potential customers).
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post #3256 of 3274 Old 02-07-2020, 01:38 AM
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Thanks. Yeah, I had a look back then but I wasn't sure if Netflix and some other apps would still work and even those Dolby Vision fixes were included, and some other concerns. Also, for now I've found a way (actually two different ways, depending on the movie) that holds me over until I'll get a new TV (probably a 2021 Panasonic OLED, LG seems to half-ass most of their features just so they can tout a long list of them to show potential customers).
Yeah fair enough, I do understand some of the later firmware had DV fixes, and if you check the firmware number on that forum against the the release notes on the LG C7 support page, it should tell you if one of those included it.

But for what it's worth, apps function normally on the unofficial firmware I'm running so if that's the case then there is no reason they wouldn't also function on an older official consumer released firmware. If you think about it, not everyone would necessarily update their firmware, and there would be complaints aplenty if those that hadn't noticed that internal apps had stopped working. So from an app front, I don't believe rolling back should be anything to be concerned about.

But then, if you now have a fix of sorts then all of this is moot.

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post #3257 of 3274 Old 02-07-2020, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by suarsg View Post
Thanks. Yeah, I had a look back then but I wasn't sure if Netflix and some other apps would still work and even those Dolby Vision fixes were included, and some other concerns. Also, for now I've found a way (actually two different ways, depending on the movie) that holds me over until I'll get a new TV (probably a 2021 Panasonic OLED, LG seems to half-ass most of their features just so they can tout a long list of them to show potential customers).
Can you let us know your two workarounds?
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post #3258 of 3274 Old 02-08-2020, 05:24 AM
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Can you let us know your two workarounds?
They aren't really workarounds or fixes, just something to improve the situation. However, I'm still experimenting with multiple approaches but haven't had a lot of time recently to test some of them really in-depth with lots of actual viewing.


1) Overriding HDMI signal with 750cd/m2 MaxMDL/MaxCLL, technicolor-Preset, DTM off:
This seems to work fairly well with most content (1000nits, 4000nits), especially in a dark room, and does preserve most of the very bright (>2000nits) highlights. The best thing about this is lamps and windows etc. aren't blinding anymore but have a more accurate brightness + shadows are also much more accurate.

2) For 1000nits movies - overriding HDMI signal with 4000cd/m2 MaxMDL/MaxCLL, Standard-Preset:
First of all, you need to change pretty much all of the settings in this preset but you can make it look pretty much like the Cinema/technicolor preset. This is only good for <=1000nits movies though as it clips everything above 800 or so. It's an overall brighter image but the brightness is still balanced across the different tone levels. Basically this will look like "DTM On" but without the boosted shadows and overbrightened highlights.

3) For 4000nits movies or movies above 1000nits:
The above solution 2) doesn't work obviously because of clipping. So you have to either switch to the technicolor-Preset and turn on DTM, or use solution 1).

How you override the HDMI signal is up to you and how tech savvy you are. Something like an HDFury can do it for you with some tinkering. You can also edit the HEVC stream to change the movie's metadata but obviously this requires access to the HEVC stream in the first place.
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What’s the best rollback method for the 7 series? Thinking about trying it, but I kind of don’t want to lose the Dolby Vision HDMI semi-fix in later versions.
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LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings

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What’s the best rollback method for the 7 series? Thinking about trying it, but I kind of don’t want to lose the Dolby Vision HDMI semi-fix in later versions.


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post #3261 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 01:25 AM
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What’s the best rollback method for the 7 series? Thinking about trying it, but I kind of don’t want to lose the Dolby Vision HDMI semi-fix in later versions.
5 posts above yours, I posted the link to the WebOS.ru forums where they host some previously released firmware, and the name of the Android app to use.

In the EU, the DoVi over HDMI fix was implemented in firmware version 4.70.65, so to rollback and keep that fix you'd have to use 5.80.15. I'm not sure what firmware version implemented the DoVi over HDMI fix in other regions.

The Sure Universal Remote app must be used on an Android device. Although it is also available for iOS, that version has extremely limited functionality and does not contain the command to open the menu required to roll back.

Although the site contains officially released firmwares, any attempt at installing/rolling back to them is done at your own risk. In addition to this, I have no idea when the issues described by @suarsg were introduced, and if they were prior to 5.80.15, you may well get a better HDR experience at the expense of broken DoVi over HDMI.
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post #3262 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
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5 posts above yours, I posted the link to the WebOS.ru forums where they host some previously released firmware, and the name of the Android app to use.

In the EU, the DoVi over HDMI fix was implemented in firmware version 4.70.65, so to rollback and keep that fix you'd have to use 5.80.15. I'm not sure what firmware version implemented the DoVi over HDMI fix in other regions.

The Sure Universal Remote app must be used on an Android device. Although it is also available for iOS, that version has extremely limited functionality and does not contain the command to open the menu required to roll back.

Although the site contains officially released firmwares, any attempt at installing/rolling back to them is done at your own risk. In addition to this, I have no idea when the issues described by @suarsg were introduced, and if they were prior to 5.80.15, you may well get a better HDR experience at the expense of broken DoVi over HDMI.
You can update from the service menu without doing using the lgupdater/spoofing IP address thing?
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post #3263 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 08:27 AM
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You can update from the service menu without doing using the lgupdater/spoofing IP address thing?
If you mean downgrade from the service menu then no, you need either the lgupdater, or the much simpler Sure Universal Remote app for Android as stated above.

If you don't have an Android device, then you'll have to see if you can get access to one because the iOS version doesn't work (and Sure doesn't work using Android emulation on Windows), or use the lgupdater method. The Android Sure app is quick and simple to use though, and as a bonus is free (contains ads).
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post #3264 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 10:20 AM
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You can update from the service menu without doing using the lgupdater/spoofing IP address thing?


Highly respected professional calibrators do not see the issues imagined by you and someone else. If you want to roll back your firmware for no particular reason...have fun!
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post #3265 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 10:29 AM
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Highly respected professional calibrators do not see the issues imagined by you and someone else.
Because they do not work with these "out of date" TVs anymore. Also, how is using a device, made for calibration, to measure all of these numbers, me imagining these issues? And R.Masciola was able to reproduce my first results after I emailed him. So I guess he's not a highly respected professional in your opinion?
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post #3266 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 10:56 AM
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Because they do not work with these "out of date" TVs anymore. Also, how is using a device, made for calibration, to measure all of these numbers, me imagining these issues? And R.Masciola was able to reproduce my first results after I emailed him. So I guess he's not a highly respected professional in your opinion?
You kind of just have to ignore HD-Master. He’s said some incorrect stuff without knowing what he’s talking about in the past.
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post #3267 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 11:34 AM
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Right...the two of you silly rascals have discovered something no one else has seen, witnessed or measured. Please turn your attention to Bigfoot next.
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post #3268 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 11:48 AM
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He just told you R.Masciola confirmed it.
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post #3269 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 12:57 PM
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Whilst I myself can in no way be considered a “professional calibrator”, and I cannot verify the exact same findings others have found due to the firmware I run on my C7, I can say that even with that firmware there are issues similar to what’s described, just not as drastic. And as my C7 is now just a bedroom TV used for the occasion bit of Netflix streaming, it doesn’t really affect me to the extent it does them. But as he has provided measurement data to back up his claims, and confirmed that R. Masciola has replicated it himself, I have absolutely no reason to doubt the claims he’s made and is the reason I’ve given direction on the possibility to downgrade to see if that solves the issue to some extent.

Those that use the 7 series LG OLED’s as a main TV still are all going to be affected by the issue if what is claimed is true, and again, I have no reason to doubt that it is. The vast majority of people won’t even notice it as they aren’t as critical in their viewing as this that frequent forums like this, but that doesn’t mean the problem isn’t there. If someone doesn’t see it, then it doesn’t affect them, and that’s great. But those that do see it are obviously annoyed by the changes enough to get meters out to make measurements and investigate further to come up with a work around of sorts, and should be applauded for taking the time to bring it to the attention of others, not chastised and/or mocked for making claims that they themselves cannot refute with measurements of their own IMO.
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post #3270 of 3274 Old 02-09-2020, 01:18 PM
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Right...the two of you silly rascals have discovered something no one else has seen, witnessed or measured. Please turn your attention to Bigfoot next.
Do you mind if I post what your calibrator told you after you sent him the link to my post with the issues and measurements? It will immediately discredit him for either a) not actually looking at what was being written/shown and just telling you what you wanna hear to protect his business or b) not understanding as much about HDR10 as he, a highly respected professional calibrator, actually should.
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