LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 03:20 PM
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I think technicolor is still different. According to a youtube b7 review that was posted by an Asian dude (will see if i can find it), apparently technicolor has built in image sharpening. evem if you turn off sharpness to 0 and edge enhancer, etc. The sharpness is still there. He thinks its set somewhere in the service menu. A huge difference? Doubtful but there nonetheless.
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post #1202 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 04:24 PM
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^it would be good to clarify if this is so.

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post #1203 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous21 View Post
I think technicolor is still different. According to a youtube b7 review that was posted by an Asian dude (will see if i can find it), apparently technicolor has built in image sharpening. evem if you turn off sharpness to 0 and edge enhancer, etc. The sharpness is still there. He thinks its set somewhere in the service menu. A huge difference? Doubtful but there nonetheless.
Even is this is true, it's so minor that it's not worth talking about.

The point is that there is no "magic" processing going on vs any of the other Expert PM's.

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post #1204 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 06:39 PM
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LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToD_ View Post
So based on the discussion regarding HDR, it sounds like Dynamic Contrast is best left off if accuracy is desired? DC doesn't appear to do much for 1000 nit material, and for 4000 nit material it doesn't follow the BT.2390 curve well at all. What purpose does it serve for correctly mastered content?


Absolutely not. Their dynamic tone mapping has proved to be the best at making images visually match the Sony BVM-X300, according to the voters at both the US and UK tv shootouts.

LG has told the press that their intent is not to follow the PQ curve,that it’s to make the TV visually match the mastering display.
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post #1205 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 07:06 PM
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Hi all, I've had my 55-inch C7 for about a week and I thought I would try to calibrate it. I have an Xbox One and a PC connected to the TV via HDMI and I'd like to calibrate both if possible. I'm using the AVS HD disc to do the basic settings first. On the Xbox I was able to set brightness and contrast without any problems but the PC is not being as straightforward. I can set brightness but the setting on the TV (38) seems to be much lower than most other people seem to be using on their TVs for brightness and when I try to set contrast I have all of the flashing white bars up to 253 visible even when contrast and OLED light are both set to 100. The TV is set to the Cinema (User) mode.

If I switch the Xbox to the HDMI inlet the PC is using I can set brightness and contrast as normal so I don't think it's a problem with the TV.

The PC uses an Nvidia Geforce GT 1030 graphics card with all settings in their default state and I'm playing the AVS HD disc with PowerDVD 12.

I suspect the problem may be to do with the settings on the graphics card but I've no idea what I should be looking at. Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance.

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post #1206 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, if you increase your brightness slider to see levels below reference black (16), your display will not display black anymore, because you will have just increased your black level. (black will become gray).
...
What an incredibly helpful and detailed reply. Thanks for taking the time to write this! It makes perfect sense, and also points me at other relevant areas to learn.
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post #1207 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
... Their dynamic tone mapping has proved to be the best at making images visually match the Sony BVM-X300, according to the voters at both the US and UK tv shootouts.

LG has told the press that their intent is not to follow the PQ curve,that it’s to make the TV visually match the mastering display.
Was this the same goal with the 2016 OLEDs?

It would explain why the HDR Standard mode clips bright highlights around the same point as BVM-X300 . Vincent Teoh has a youtube clip on the BVM-X300 and shows the same hard clipping on the BvS scene with Bruce Wayne in a white shirt. On 2017 OLEDs turning on Dynamic Contrast low activates Active HDR and the highlights are back. Another Vincent Teoh clip shows this behaviour.

The irony is that the 2016 OLED lost the shootout in 2016 because of the clipping.

HDR Game mode on 2016 OLED has a different tone map which keeps all the bright highlights, but darkens the whole overall picture.

I assume that both the 2016 and 2017 models ignore the MaxCLL and MaxFALL metadata in some/all modes?

Last edited by Nick Laslett; 12-04-2017 at 10:55 PM.
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post #1208 of 3274 Old 12-04-2017, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Finally got around to measuring the transfer functions on my LG in HDR mode - results attached for 1000 nit master and 4000 nit master patterns. In each graph the three plots are dynamic HDR off, dynamic HDR low, and what BT.2390 tone mapping standard would recommend. The display does essentially no additional tone mapping with a 1000 nit master but quite a bit with a 4000 nit master, moreso than BT.2390 would recommend. Both cases follow the PQ curve quite well up to diffuse white (shown in the 3rd graph) when HDR dynamic contrast is off. Max output on a 10% pattern was 640 nits (warm 2) and 720 nits (cool). Note also that with a 4000 nit master the diffuse white point (typically near 100 nits/50% stimulus) is considerably lowered to 69 nits.
Do you have these graphs for the 2016 LG E6?
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post #1209 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Absolutely not. Their dynamic tone mapping has proved to be the best at making images visually match the Sony BVM-X300, according to the voters at both the US and UK tv shootouts.

LG has told the press that their intent is not to follow the PQ curve,that it’s to make the TV visually match the mastering display.
This is only for HDR10 correct? With DV, Dynamic Contrast should be set to off? What's LG take on that?
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post #1210 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:24 AM
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post #1211 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Absolutely not. Their dynamic tone mapping has proved to be the best at making images visually match the Sony BVM-X300, according to the voters at both the US and UK tv shootouts.

LG has told the press that their intent is not to follow the PQ curve,that it’s to make the TV visually match the mastering display.
Why would one make a tonemapping "standard" out of the performance of a specific reference monitor? Even if that monitor is commonly used today, it may change tomorrow. And for all its merits it is still flawed. All monitors are. Tonemapping should be based on a mathematical theory, applicable to todays and tomorrows monitors IMHO. Like the BT.2390 report.

Owning an 2017 OLED I feel the tonemapping in HDR (i.e Netflix series with DV) has a lot of improvement to do.
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Last edited by Barsk; 12-05-2017 at 03:41 AM.
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post #1212 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToD_ View Post
So based on the discussion regarding HDR, it sounds like Dynamic Contrast is best left off if accuracy is desired? DC doesn't appear to do much for 1000 nit material, and for 4000 nit material it doesn't follow the BT.2390 curve well at all. What purpose does it serve for correctly mastered content?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
Why would one make a tonemapping "standard" out of the performance of a specific reference monitor? Even if that monitor is commonly used today, it may change tomorrow. And for all its merits it is still flawed. All monitors are. Tonemapping should be based on a mathematical theory, applicable to todays and tomorrows monitors IMHO. Like the BT.2390 report.
I agree with @WiFi-Spy you should never hard clip HDR material because while it theoretically gives you better color matching in the SDR luminance range the visual impact of highlighting is suppressed. LG's approach is a good one because they do stick to the BT.2390 functional form for best perceptual matching.
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post #1213 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Sorry no, I only have the one display.
Thank you for the update. I guessed that was the case looking at some earlier posts.

I have CalMan and Masciola HDR10 patterns, I assume I can easily make the measurements myself? Won’t be too accurate as I only have the X-Rite i1Display Pro.
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post #1214 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I agree with @WiFi-Spy you should never hard clip HDR material because while it theoretically gives you better color matching in the SDR luminance range the visual impact of highlighting is suppressed. LG's approach is a good one because they do stick to the BT.2390 functional form for best perceptual matching.
I must be misunderstanding something. @WiFi-Spy seems to mention that LG is NOT following BT.2390 specs but instead tries to mimic the response of the Sony BVM-X300 reference monitor.
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post #1215 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
I must be misunderstanding something. @WiFi-Spy seems to mention that LG is NOT following BT.2390 specs but instead tries to mimic the response of the Sony BVM-X300 reference monitor.
"visually match" does not always mean mimic the response. BT.2390 is a recommendation on how to visually match displays with higher brightness and LG appears to have followed that approach with their tone mapping. They don't implement it perfectly because they compress the SDR range (0-100 nits) to something like (0-70 nits) when viewing 4000 nit masters, but you can recover some of that with calibration. It could also be the case that this compression is desirable to reduce eyestrain with some material.
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post #1216 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 04:14 AM
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Regarding LG 2017 and BT1886 crushing blacks a bit I was wondering, can I fix that with i1d3 and Calman? Can't remember if Calman allows to do gamma calibration separately or only along with greyscale? I know I can't really do greyscale without profiling my i1d3 which I can't do unfortunately. But current ISF Dark/HDR-DV Cinema RGB balance is pretty good so I'm more interested in a proper lower blacks right now.

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post #1217 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
"visually match" does not always mean mimic the response. BT.2390 is a recommendation on how to visually match displays with higher brightness and LG appears to have followed that approach with their tone mapping. They don't implement it perfectly because they compress the SDR range (0-100 nits) to something like (0-70 nits) when viewing 4000 nit masters, but you can recover some of that with calibration. It could also be the case that this compression is desirable to reduce eyestrain with some material.
@zoyd , ok. thanks for clarifying.
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post #1218 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 06:04 AM
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Hi guys, first of all thank you for the very informative posts in this topic
55C7 owner here, and I have a question;

More and more I'm noticing that a lot of content on for example UHD Blu-Ray disc or Netflix do not have true 100% blacks in HDR10/Dolby Vision, whereas the SDR versions of the same content do. For example, when watching Dawn of the Planet of the Apes recently on UHD BR disc it looked more like I was watching it on a LCD tv instead of an OLED :-/ . These "errors" are probably in the content I guess, as the LG HDR demo's for example do have true 100% blacks. (Why would content makers do this?).
This leads me to my question; should I tweak my HDR picture modes (I use the Technicolor Expert picture mode for HDR10, Cinema for Dolby Vision) settings in any way (without having any professional equipment)? Can I e.g. decrease Brightness without screwing up the tone-mapping? Or anything else I should/can change? I already enabled Active HDR, which however barely has any influence on this issue. Turning Dynamic Contrast to Medium or High does make the blacks (a lot) more black, but still not 100%. Also I don't want to use Dynamic Contrast because of White Clipping (right?).

Your opinions/experiences are highly appreciated
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post #1219 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymon89 View Post
Hi guys, first of all thank you for the very informative posts in this topic
55C7 owner here, and I have a question;

More and more I'm noticing that a lot of content on for example UHD Blu-Ray disc or Netflix do not have true 100% blacks in HDR10/Dolby Vision, whereas the SDR versions of the same content do. For example, when watching Dawn of the Planet of the Apes recently on UHD BR disc it looked more like I was watching it on a LCD tv instead of an OLED :-/ . These "errors" are probably in the content I guess, as the LG HDR demo's for example do have true 100% blacks. (Why would content makers do this?).
This leads me to my question; should I tweak my HDR picture modes (I use the Technicolor Expert picture mode for HDR10, Cinema for Dolby Vision) settings in any way (without having any professional equipment)? Can I e.g. decrease Brightness without screwing up the tone-mapping? Or anything else I should/can change? I already enabled Active HDR, which however barely has any influence on this issue. Turning Dynamic Contrast to Medium or High does make the blacks (a lot) more black, but still not 100%. Also I don't want to use Dynamic Contrast because of White Clipping (right?).

Your opinions/experiences are highly appreciated
Where you stream Netflix from? TV, UHD player?
As usual it's better to post your settings for HDR content. Both TV and UHD BD player. It might be something in the settings that is off.

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post #1220 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 06:20 AM
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Netflix from TV app, UHD Blu-Rays from my LG UP970 player.

I am using the HDR picture modes as-are, with only turning off all "image enhancers" like noise reduction etc. Active HDR enabled, as stated above (for HDR10, not DV).
Basically I'm using these settings: https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-...tings.2106641/
With the exception of using the Technicolor Expert mode for HDR10 instead of Cinema, enabling Active HDR for HDR10 and enabling Edge Enhancer (as I've read that LG recommends it because On actually means a by-pass without altering the image).

My UP970 is set to picture mode Standard, meaning it does not alter the image but passes it as-is to the tv.

Last edited by Raymon89; 12-05-2017 at 06:26 AM.
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post #1221 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Laslett View Post
Thank you for the update. I guessed that was the case looking at some earlier posts.

I have CalMan and Masciola HDR10 patterns, I assume I can easily make the measurements myself? Won’t be too accurate as I only have the X-Rite i1Display Pro.
Yes you can, the i1D3 works fine for this measurement. I also found that the tone mapping that gets used depends only on the Master MaxL parameter, MaxCLL and MaxFALL had no effect.


On another topic, who has measured white point uniformity on these displays? It's pretty bad on mine on the right half with a shift of 5 dE towards the edge (too warm). Interestingly I also measured the primaries center vs. edge and there is a definite increase in the red primary intensity and what looks like some leakage of red into the green primary which leads to the color temperature shift. I suspect this is related to variations in how the filter mask is applied in the lithography over the white OLEDs to create the primaries.

Last edited by zoyd; 12-05-2017 at 04:01 PM.
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post #1222 of 3274 Old 12-05-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I also found that the tone mapping that gets used depends only on the Master MaxL parameter, MaxCLL and MaxFALL had no effect.
Hey Scott,

This seems to be the case for static metadata HDR-10.

- Ryan M.
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post #1223 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 02:46 AM
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Hey Scott,

This seems to be the case for static metadata HDR-10.

- Ryan M.
Or Dolby Vision

I bookmarked ConnecTEDDD’s discussion on this topic with RichB.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54813192

The accuracy of the metadata on UHDs seems pretty critical to some displays.

Very useful Google Sheets spreadsheet from Claw with UHD metadata. I think ConnecTEDDD has a version too

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The idea seems to be some kind of solution from HDFury and AVTop that injects revised metadata, from what I can gather.

I was thinking of using SEIedit from AVTop on a UHD rip to see how signalling wrong metadata values would effect the OLEDs HDR Tone Mapping.
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post #1224 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Laslett View Post
Or Dolby Vision

I bookmarked ConnecTEDDD’s discussion on this topic with RichB.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54813192

The accuracy of the metadata on UHDs seems pretty critical to some displays.

Very useful Google Sheets spreadsheet from Claw with UHD metadata. I think ConnecTEDDD has a version too

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The idea seems to be some kind of solution from HDFury and AVTop that injects revised metadata, from what I can gather.

I was thinking of using SEIedit from AVTop on a UHD rip to see how signalling wrong metadata values would effect the OLEDs HDR Tone Mapping.
Hi Nick,

Agreed. Precise and accurate metadata is extremely important. Especially your color primaries, transfer characteristics, matrix coefficients, mastering display color primaries, and most importantly your mastering display luminance. However, most manufactures choose to ignore or strip the MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadata and apply there own tone mapping methodology base on the max mastering display luminance values when it comes to static metadata HDR-10. This not to say that all manufactures follow this method, but this seems to be the case for most. If you were to measure the patterns below, you should see no variance between patterns except for the last file which has a different max mastering luminance of 1,000 nit vs 540 nit and that the MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadata has no bearing.

For testing purposes, I took one of my LG OLED code specific patterns and ran it through SEIedit and changing only the MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadata and on the last, changing the max mastering display luminance (Tested on an LG B6 standalone, LG B6 & Oppo BDP-203 combo (both via digital patterns/then tested via UltraHD Blu-ray disc))

LG OLED 669_HDR10 Mixed Metadata Files

Here is the assoiated metadata for each pattern:

LG OLED 669_HDR10.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 540.0000 cd/m2

LG OLED 669_MaxCLL_540.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 540.0000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level: 540 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 540 cd/m2

LG OLED 669_MaxCLL_1000.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 540.0000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 540 cd/m2

LG OLED 669_Max_CLL_4000.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 540.0000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 540 cd/m2

LG OLED 669_MaxCLL_10000.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 540.0000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level: 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level: 540 cd/m2

LG OLED 669_Master_1000.mp4

Color primaries: BT.2020
Transfer characteristics: PQ
Matrix coefficients: BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries: R: x=0.680000 y=0.320000, G: x=0.265000 y=0.690000, B: x=0.150000 y=0.060000, White point: x=0.312680 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance: min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 1000.0000 cd/m2

- Ryan M.

Last edited by mascior; 12-06-2017 at 06:20 AM.
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post #1225 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 07:32 AM
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Or Dolby Vision

I bookmarked ConnecTEDDD’s discussion on this topic with RichB.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54813192

The accuracy of the metadata on UHDs seems pretty critical to some displays.

Very useful Google Sheets spreadsheet from Claw with UHD metadata. I think ConnecTEDDD has a version too

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The idea seems to be some kind of solution from HDFury and AVTop that injects revised metadata, from what I can gather.

I was thinking of using SEIedit from AVTop on a UHD rip to see how signalling wrong metadata values would effect the OLEDs HDR Tone Mapping.
ConnecTED list will be out this month, it will include the 115 titles of claw, it will be 230 movies, checked from various markets, so about 350 examined disks. There differences between regions (UHD don't have region codes); I mean the same tittle from US market has different metadata from the same title from UK market.

It will look like this:



Also there about 9 titles which are SDR REC.709 2160p, some are 10-bit, others 8-bit, the list will have these titles also.
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post #1226 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quick question, when paying for a professional calibration, I am assuming a tip is not expected, or is it?

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post #1227 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 11:48 AM
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^ That depends on you and how good a job you think they have done specific to your viewing needs

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post #1228 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 07:02 PM
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Hi everyone,

I purchased a C7 in July and had it calibrated in August by Chad B. Chad did a great job and the TV looks awesome. The other night I was bored and fired up Spears and Munsil 2nd Edition on my Oppo 203 and noticed some severe banding/artifacts in the Red ramp of the RGB ramp sections. I then tried using my PS4 Pro and saw the exact same banding/artifacts. The only way I was able to fix the banding was to either put the Oppo in RGB PC color space or simply change the color gamut from auto to Wide ( this corrected the banding/artifacts with both players). I spent hours going through and changing inputs and settings on the TV and both players, and only these 2 methods fixed the problem.

Obviously the problem is the TV, is anyone aware if LG changed the Color Gamut or if this is a known bug? I would like to figure out what is going on, maybe a botched firmware post calibration is to blame. I am hesitant to change the color gamut to wide due to having the tv professionally calibrated. I have included a link to a picture I took, the banding in the red is much more noticeable in person but it should give you a decent idea of what it looks like. Hopefully someone else has ran across this issue. Thanks for the help.

https://imgur.com/fxjk0iW

Craig
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post #1229 of 3274 Old 12-06-2017, 10:14 PM
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Hi everyone,



I purchased a C7 in July and had it calibrated in August by Chad B. Chad did a great job and the TV looks awesome. The other night I was bored and fired up Spears and Munsil 2nd Edition on my Oppo 203 and noticed some severe banding/artifacts in the Red ramp of the RGB ramp sections. I then tried using my PS4 Pro and saw the exact same banding/artifacts. The only way I was able to fix the banding was to either put the Oppo in RGB PC color space or simply change the color gamut from auto to Wide ( this corrected the banding/artifacts with both players). I spent hours going through and changing inputs and settings on the TV and both players, and only these 2 methods fixed the problem.



Obviously the problem is the TV, is anyone aware if LG changed the Color Gamut or if this is a known bug? I would like to figure out what is going on, maybe a botched firmware post calibration is to blame. I am hesitant to change the color gamut to wide due to having the tv professionally calibrated. I have included a link to a picture I took, the banding in the red is much more noticeable in person but it should give you a decent idea of what it looks like. Hopefully someone else has ran across this issue. Thanks for the help.



https://imgur.com/fxjk0iW



Craig


Can you see it an actual content?

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post #1230 of 3274 Old 12-07-2017, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post

Obviously the problem is the TV, is anyone aware if LG changed the Color Gamut or if this is a known bug? I would like to figure out what is going on, maybe a botched firmware post calibration is to blame. I am hesitant to change the color gamut to wide due to having the tv professionally calibrated.
@dnice has mentioned that the LGs have some sort of issue with YCC input but did not elaborate as to magnitude. I did some testing, results in this post, which indicate that they should not be viewable in typical content. So you should weigh your decision in that context. I suppose you might see something in an image which contains such a gradient but I would think that would be pretty rare and switching to wide mode would create color errors in every image.

Last edited by zoyd; 12-07-2017 at 03:46 AM.
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