Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs? - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 323 Old 01-23-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Using the same custom white point between different colorspace is not working, for the simple reason that each D65 is using different mixture to have 6504K while the x,y coordinates are exact the same. (x: 0.327 y: 0.329)

REC.709 D65 is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K and x: 0.327 y: 0.329

DCI-P3 D65 is using Red 22.9%, Green 69.17%, Blue 7.93% which gives 6504K and x: 0.327 y: 0.329

REC.2020 D65 is using Red 26.27%, Green 67.8%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K and x: 0.327 y: 0.329
Don't you mean x: 0.3127 y: 0.329? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminant_D65)

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post #302 of 323 Old 01-23-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
Don't you mean x: 0.3127 y: 0.329? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminant_D65)
Yes, I will correct the post, typing error.

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post #303 of 323 Old 01-23-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Modern color matching functions are available (see the proposed 2012 observer at <http://www.cvrl.org/ciexyzpr.htm> and <http://www.cvrl.org/database/text/ci...ie2012xyz2.htm>) but this will help not-at-all, if the underlying issue is observer to observer variation, something that wide gamut displays exacerbate.
Individual Colorimetric Observer Model

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post #304 of 323 Old 01-23-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
LG with Dolby have written a study related, which released @ May 2018 ''Correcting Metameric Failure of Wide Color Gamut Displays'', where they found that to perfeptual match a reference CRT with LG OLED, they used that custom White Point: x 0.308 y 0.313
That paper is pretty interesting. Just using a custom white point offset led to a DE of 2 or under in the other measured colors - see attached (purple line).

It would be interesting to know what colors the technicolor folks were optimizing for with their technicolor profile on the LG 8 series OLEDs.

My main interest is in skin tones. What do you experts think? Are the ISF profiles or the technicolor profile better for skin tones?
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post #305 of 323 Old 01-23-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
My main interest is in skin tones. What do you experts think? Are the ISF profiles or the technicolor profile better for skin tones?
I compared http://humanae.tumblr.com/ on the LG C8's WebOS browser to the same page in Chrome on my MacBook Pro (profiled to sRGB) and on my Pixelbook (not profiled but very similar to the MBP).

There is no contest. The ISF profiles are too red. The technicolor profile is much better for skin tones, matching the laptops pretty closely. Darker faces are more saturated on the LG, but match better after setting the LG's gamma to 2.2 (sRGB gamma is 2.2).

Edit:I'm not suggesting to set the LG's gamma to 2.2, just that the LG matches an sRGB calibrated screen better with gamma set to 2.2.

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post #306 of 323 Old 01-24-2019, 02:10 AM
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so far I have been using the technicolor mode in warm 65 in my 65 c8 to get closer to the D65, the errors are below 2 in all the ires .. but now I have the doubt if I should use tecnicolor in warm 1 and use the new white dot . I would like to know the recommendation of the experts. Thank you.
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post #307 of 323 Old 01-24-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreres Gordillo View Post
so far I have been using the technicolor mode in warm 65 in my 65 c8 to get closer to the D65, the errors are below 2 in all the ires .. but now I have the doubt if I should use tecnicolor in warm 1 and use the new white dot . I would like to know the recommendation of the experts. Thank you.
My understanding thus far is that displays made with newer technologies such as OLED affect the measuring instruments differently than LCD and CRT displays. So even if the measurements say DE is less than 2, to your perception the display may still look "off". The technicolor folks recognized this, and used a modified white point (Warm 1) to bring our perception of the display in line with an LCD or CRT display which has been calibrated using the standard white point.

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post #308 of 323 Old 01-24-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
My understanding thus far is that displays made with newer technologies such as OLED affect the measuring instruments differently than LCD and CRT displays. So even if the measurements say DE is less than 2, to your perception the display may still look "off". The technicolor folks recognized this, and used a modified white point (Warm 1) to bring our perception of the display in line with an LCD or CRT display which has been calibrated using the standard white point.
It's not easy to explain why different white points are used, and that was a very nice concise explanation! Well done sir!

Here's another very accessible one (although to my ears, it sounds odd not to put the emphasis on the FIRST syllable of "metamerism"!)

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post #309 of 323 Old 01-25-2019, 02:58 AM
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Great explanation, thank you very much. I understand that in practice, Technicolor mode in Warm 1 is very accurate and that the perception of the target is more faithful. I imagine that depending on the ambient light you can raise or lower the light oled to taste and that's it.
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post #310 of 323 Old 01-25-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreres Gordillo View Post
Great explanation, thank you very much. I understand that in practice, Technicolor mode in Warm 1 is very accurate and that the perception of the target is more faithful. I imagine that depending on the ambient light you can raise or lower the light oled to taste and that's it.
For me technicolor Warm 1 is a little green on whites, but on skin tones, it is very good. I don't really notice the slightly green whites too much in day to day viewing, but skin tones I do notice.

The OLED light can be set to your preference as it doesn't seem to affect color and contrast too much. But setting it to 25 is recommended for best accuracy. I have mine at 52.

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post #311 of 323 Old 01-25-2019, 10:38 AM
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tecnicolor with light oled to 25 and warm 1, it seems to work very well, but in total darkness, I never see movies on the c8 without any ambient light, I always have a little light and I need to raise the light oled to 50 or 60 . It seems to me that as I turn up the light oled, the accuracy of the white is no longer so good, I have the impression that the image becomes somewhat milky and the colors are no longer so precise. Maybe it's just my perception.
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post #312 of 323 Old 01-29-2019, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
The technicolor folks recognized this, and used a modified white point (Warm 1) to bring our perception of the display in line with an LCD or CRT display which has been calibrated using the standard white point.
Not inline of LCD/CRT but for perceptual matching a Xenon DCI projector (x: 0.300, y: 0.327), as explained there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57472976

LG with Dolby are recommending a totally different white point to perceptual patch a CRT reference (x: 0.308 y: 0.313), as explained there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57478550

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post #313 of 323 Old 01-29-2019, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
My understanding thus far is that displays made with newer technologies such as OLED affect the measuring instruments differently than LCD and CRT displays.
Spectral instruments aren't affected by the type of technology - it's the correspondence between the standard observer values computed from the instrument spectral values and what real individuals observe, that causes the problem. Wide gamut display technologies exacerbate any differences between individual CMF (Color Matching Function) spectral responses and the CIE 1931 standard CMF. Note also that spectral differences between display technologies also show up as more obvious differences between narrow angle and wide angle (i.e. close and distant) observations, because of the human eye's different CMFs at different viewing angles.

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post #314 of 323 Old 01-29-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
LG with Dolby are recommending a totally different white point to perceptual patch a CRT reference (x: 0.308 y: 0.313), as explained there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57478550
We don't know which LG OLED they used to come up with that white point.

From my experience perceptual matching to an sRGB calibrated MacBook Retina Pro LCD, watching the same content on both the TV and MacBook, the technicolor Warm 1 default setting does an excellent job.
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post #315 of 323 Old 01-29-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Spectral instruments aren't affected by the type of technology - it's the correspondence between the standard observer values computed from the instrument spectral values and what real individuals observe, that causes the problem. Wide gamut display technologies exacerbate any differences between individual CMF (Color Matching Function) spectral responses and the CIE 1931 standard CMF. Note also that spectral differences between display technologies also show up as more obvious differences between narrow angle and wide angle (i.e. close and distant) observations, because of the human eye's different CMFs at different viewing angles.
Thanks... would an i1Display Pro (eodis3) be affected negatively by LG OLEDs? Would you recommend using it in off-screen mode?

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post #316 of 323 Old 01-29-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
We don't know which LG OLED they used to come up with that white point.
The LG/Dolby study released @ May 2018, they used for sure a 2018 panel.

Technicolor mode available from OLED 2017 models.

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post #317 of 323 Old 02-07-2019, 08:47 PM
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All I can say is I love the technicolor setting for SDR on my C8.

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post #318 of 323 Old 02-08-2019, 02:09 PM
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This puts even a greater spin on the question of calibration worth. How do you know your LCD also doesn't suffer from metametric failure and can be used as a standard if you're a DIY person? Do pro's carry a master-standard LCD with them? All that talk about how you can't use eyes to calibrate is rendered moot due to metametric failure. On top of that you have deviations in readings between colorimeters and spectrophotometers, between different spectrophotometers, there are arguments over gamma (power-law vs. BT.1886), and eyes actually adjusting to accuracy errors. Then of course we have non-standardized HDR...

The whole idea of "seeing content as it was seen during mastering" or as "mastered" now seems unobtainable. You can calibrate a set of displays (even if all are SDR or all are HDR, not mixed), have software show you excellent accuracy for each one, each one meeting D65 standard and yet the same image on each displays can have an observable difference. With release of i1D3, DIY with accurate results became feasible due to i1D3 costs, but I guess power is once again being shifted towards Pro's due to HDR and OLED requiring more accuracy and a master-LCD display for eye-based adjustment...

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post #319 of 323 Old 11-20-2019, 09:29 AM
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What white point for Panasonic EZ950?

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post #320 of 323 Old 11-20-2019, 09:46 AM
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What white point for Panasonic EZ950?
They use LG panels, so use what is recommended for those...

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post #321 of 323 Old 11-21-2019, 12:37 AM
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... but for D-Nice we should find right white for every OLED

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good morning, I have calibrated my LG c8 oled to D65 and then I have retreated 2 points the red of the white balance high pass as TomHuffman indicates in his article on the Metameric, even so, the white seems white to me but sometimes the Skin tones are somewhat orange. Now I consider calibrating to 308 329 D-Nice, I wonder if also if I use the white D-Nice point, I should recalibrate the CMS, it is something I do not want to do since the errors are minimal and introduces artifacts into normal content. Thank you very much.
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post #323 of 323 Old 11-22-2019, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreres Gordillo View Post
good morning, I have calibrated my LG c8 oled to D65 and then I have retreated 2 points the red of the white balance high pass as TomHuffman indicates in his article on the Metameric, even so, the white seems white to me but sometimes the Skin tones are somewhat orange. Now I consider calibrating to 308 329 D-Nice, I wonder if also if I use the white D-Nice point, I should recalibrate the CMS, it is something I do not want to do since the errors are minimal and introduces artifacts into normal content. Thank you very much.
With a custom white point, the gamut targets must be recalculated for best results. So yes, if you change the white point, you should redo the CMS.

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