C6 HDR2000 colorimeter from SpectraCal - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 101 Old 08-06-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rswood View Post
I will continue to ask this question until I get a response.
Good luck.
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post #92 of 101 Old 08-06-2019, 07:42 AM
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Lets deep drive now.... below they are official US government patents (public available with google search) X-Rite has for i1 Series instruments.

Here is the patent for i1Display PRO.

Here is the patent of how meter can be calibrated (SPMref means reference 1nm spectro):

''The spectral sensitivities of the channels of the CMD are formed by the ratio, at each wavelength, of the power as measured with the SPMref to the output of the CMD at the same wavelength. This could be accomplished, for example, by measuring the output of a scanning monochrometer with both the SPMref and the CMD. Another embodiment is schematically shown in FIG. 2. By means of an adjustable light source Q, which can for example be formed by an integrating sphere equipped with corresponding illuminants and as applicable color filters, light of different colors (different spectral bands) is generated sequentially and gauged by both the color measuring device CMD to be calibrated and spectrally by a high-precision reference spectrophotometer SPMref.''

I have highlighted with hold letters the 2 available calibration methods which can be performed, 1) using monochromator or 2) using integrating sphere.

This patents came as a proof to support my above long reply (before knowing the existence of these patert papers... I just find out), so to re-calibrate you need a scanning monochromator or integrated sphere.


Only a few calibration labs around the work have that calibration capability and makes sense to do these special procedures when you have to do with a multiple thousand colorimeter or spectroradiomenter model re-calibration, not to re-calibrate a consumer low-cost instrument.

See that SpectraCAL's Lab Director say there:

The NIST Certification document that all C6s are shipped with is essentially a traceability document that shows that the certified device matched a reference device to within the listed tolerances in environmental conditions mandated by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. It also provides the necessary information to trace the lineage of the reference device back to any other devices used for its calibration or certification. So, specifically, we list our Konica Minolta’s calibration number which can be checked at any time in order to verify that the reference device was itself within 1 year of calibration (another NIST guideline).

We only do the NIST Certification on 1 meter characterization and display characterization combination because in testing the one, we are verifying all calibrations because we are including the meter’s unique base characterization that is used in all display type calibrations. Essentially, when we verify one display calibration, we verify all of them as long as thorough testing of the display characterizations are done before we send it out to users in software updates. This is not true for OEM resellers that use the 3x3 matrix method as each matrix generation must be verified individually on each meter.

Readers that have further questions or concerns are welcome to contact SpectraCal directly.

Sincerely,

Darrell Bird
Calibration Lab Director
SpectraCal, Inc.
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post #93 of 101 Old 08-06-2019, 04:54 PM
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I just spent $200.00 dollars and sent my meter back for what I thought was certification and calibration for my $700.00 meter to find out I think, that I wasted my money. My meter came back with a card the said I had errors but no information that those errors were fixed. So I now have a brick that sits on my tv? Tyler will not respond. I have been a customer for more than 15 years and can’t get a honest answer to my question.



If it is true that the meter can not be brought back into compliance then what good is the meter? I take very good care of my meter stored in its case. And in less than 2 years it is now worthless as a stand alone meter? I will continue to ask this question until I get a response.


If you received a new NIST certification that means it was found to still be in error tolerance. If it was not within tolerance, then we would’ve contacted you about what your options would be.

I am working with our website team to make it more clear what the service consists of.

A lot of facilities require their equipment to have an up-to-date NIST traceable certificate. That is the service we are offering.
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post #94 of 101 Old 08-08-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rswood View Post
I just spent $200.00 dollars and sent my meter back for what I thought was certification and calibration for my $700.00 meter to find out I think, that I wasted my money. My meter came back with a card the said I had errors but no information that those errors were fixed. So I now have a brick that sits on my tv? Tyler will not respond. I have been a customer for more than 15 years and can’t get a honest answer to my question.

If it is true that the meter can not be brought back into compliance then what good is the meter? I take very good care of my meter stored in its case. And in less than 2 years it is now worthless as a stand alone meter? I will continue to ask this question until I get a response.
Can you upload a photo or scan of what they sent you? Buy all means cover up any data you think is private. There is very little information in your post to be able to judge what you actually got or what they told you.

It would be usual for a certification exercise to show you how much the meter deviates from reference (which could be called error, but it isn't really unless it is gross) and whether that is within tolerance or not.

A certification is just a check of the meter's behaviour. A calibration would involve adjustment of the meter to deal with the errors. If you thought you were buying a calibration of the meter I believe you probably misunderstood what they were offering.

At some point in the past there has been a subtle change to the wording on the website for recertification of these meters. At present it says "With a NIST certificate from Portraits' color lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" (https://store.portrait.com/meters/sp...ification.html), however previously it said "With a NIST certificate from SpectraCal's calibration lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" https://web.archive.org/web/20170706...ification.html . The earlier text was arguably misleading as so far as I understand no actual calibration was performed on any of these meters, just certification.
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post #95 of 101 Old 08-08-2019, 01:25 PM
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Can you upload a photo or scan of what they sent you? Buy all means cover up any data you think is private. There is very little information in your post to be able to judge what you actually got or what they told you.

It would be usual for a certification exercise to show you how much the meter deviates from reference (which could be called error, but it isn't really unless it is gross) and whether that is within tolerance or not.

A certification is just a check of the meter's behaviour. A calibration would involve adjustment of the meter to deal with the errors. If you thought you were buying a calibration of the meter I believe you probably misunderstood what they were offering.

At some point in the past there has been a subtle change to the wording on the website for recertification of these meters. At present it says "With a NIST certificate from Portraits' color lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" (https://store.portrait.com/meters/sp...ification.html), however previously it said "With a NIST certificate from SpectraCal's calibration lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" https://web.archive.org/web/20170706...ification.html . The earlier text was arguably misleading as so far as I understand no actual calibration was performed on any of these meters, just certification.
Bobf, The card shows how much deviation from, I believe delta 2000. I do not have the card with me. I have been working with Portrait on my situation and to be honest they have been very gracious and helpful. I was confused on their offering and we are working on a solution.

Thank you for your input on this matter.
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post #96 of 101 Old 08-08-2019, 01:29 PM
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If you received a new NIST certification that means it was found to still be in error tolerance. If it was not within tolerance, then we would’ve contacted you about what your options would be.

I am working with our website team to make it more clear what the service consists of.

A lot of facilities require their equipment to have an up-to-date NIST traceable certificate. That is the service we are offering.
Tyler, Thank you for your help. I am sure we can get this worked out.
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post #97 of 101 Old 08-09-2019, 10:59 AM
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Can you upload a photo or scan of what they sent you? Buy all means cover up any data you think is private. There is very little information in your post to be able to judge what you actually got or what they told you.

It would be usual for a certification exercise to show you how much the meter deviates from reference (which could be called error, but it isn't really unless it is gross) and whether that is within tolerance or not.

A certification is just a check of the meter's behaviour. A calibration would involve adjustment of the meter to deal with the errors. If you thought you were buying a calibration of the meter I believe you probably misunderstood what they were offering.

At some point in the past there has been a subtle change to the wording on the website for recertification of these meters. At present it says "With a NIST certificate from Portraits' color lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" (https://store.portrait.com/meters/sp...ification.html), however previously it said "With a NIST certificate from SpectraCal's calibration lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" https://web.archive.org/web/20170706...ification.html . The earlier text was arguably misleading as so far as I understand no actual calibration was performed on any of these meters, just certification.
I find it strange that they’ve now added a note saying
Quote:
Note: Re-certification services offered for most C6 colorimeters. Refurbished C6 colorimeters do not qualify for re-certifcation services.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-09-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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post #98 of 101 Old 08-09-2019, 02:00 PM
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I find it strange that they’ve now added a note saying
Who knows. Maybe the recertification (despite being outwardly quite a lot of money on what is an inexpensive base meter) doesn't make that much money and so you'd only want to offer it for meters that have had full whack paid for them. Or maybe it is done as a carrot to get commercial folk who need to have it certified for their business to buy new meters (Otherwise, if you can get a refurb meter certified what would be the downside of it?)

----

There are a couple of things that are a little bit puzzling about the certificates from Spectracal that Ted posted above. Maybe @WiFi-Spy could clarify?

1) why do these certificates mention in several places "calibration", when this cannot be a calibration given that the devices were not /are not adjustable by Spectracal / Portrait? Is this a mis-statement?

2) the judge spec quoted seems unfeasibly tight for anyone who has seen a few i1d3 devices and witnessed firsthand the variation between them back to back on the same display. Even Klein don't specify tighter than delta x,y +/-0.002 delta Y +/-3%, yet this effectively consumer device is quoting delta x,y +/- 0.001 delta Y +/-2% (4x tighter than x-rites own specs for x,y!) Given it is unlikely that a given display used in the lab is a perfect spectral match any of the loaded EDRs, how is this possible?

3) given 2) seems unfeasibly tight, can Portrait provide a bit more info on exactly how the meters are certified? Are they being tested using a custom EDR that precisely matches the reference monitor, for example (something an end user couldn't do?). Or is a matrix correction applied before measuring the test patches?

4) What is the reference monitor being used as the transfer device for the original NIST standard that the spectro has been calibrated against? Where I've seen these certificates for other devices (like the Klein units), the details of the reference monitor used as the transfer device are also included on the certificate.

5) Related to 1), are you providing a NIST certificate of calibration, or a NIST certificate of compliance, or a NIST traceable certificate, with meters such as the C6HDR2000, and subsequent recertifiations? This might seem like nit picking, but there is a significant difference between the three and while the test information provided on the certificate makes it look more like a NIST traceable certificate, in the marketing materials for the C6HDR2000 for example it just says NIST certificate. And then the certificate itself refers to calibration! I understand A NIST certificate would mean the device was evaluated directly against NIST standard reference materials, instead of using another device (such as a NIST certified spectro) to transfer that standard, with the terms certification and calibration having special meanings depending on whether the device is adjustable or not.

I've also seen some historic information listing C6 meters as having "NIST calibration certificate from SpectraCal metrology lab - exclusive". That clearly must be a mistake surely? Or were they really at one time NIST calibrated and now they're not - hence the change spotted ref Color lab vs calibration lab change? If they were NIST calibrated previously, how were they?

I think a little more transparency / clarity on exactly what these certificates represent would go a long way, given the cost uplift over an otherwise very similar meter is significant.
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Last edited by bobof; 08-10-2019 at 12:04 AM.
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post #99 of 101 Old 08-13-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
A certification is just a check of the meter's behaviour. A calibration would involve adjustment of the meter to deal with the errors. If you thought you were buying a calibration of the meter I believe you probably misunderstood what they were offering.

At some point in the past there has been a subtle change to the wording on the website for recertification of these meters. At present it says "With a NIST certificate from Portraits' color lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" (https://store.portrait.com/meters/sp...ification.html), however previously it said "With a NIST certificate from SpectraCal's calibration lab you can guarantee the accuracy of your meter's readings" https://web.archive.org/web/20170706...ification.html . The earlier text was arguably misleading as so far as I understand no actual calibration was performed on any of these meters, just certification.
Hi,

The webpage talking for Calibration + Re-certification, its still saying that... if you google for this right now; since google's server hasn't updated to include 'last week' HTML correction from SpectraCAL yet: https://www.google.com/search?client...acal+c6+recert



I looked to my browser history and I saw the 'Calibration/Re-certification' page saved to the history of my browser:...



This means that C6 users has been misinformed and ordered a service that it was not actually a calibration but only a verification (with a document that works as proof that their meter is tracking perfectly an reference spectro).

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post #100 of 101 Old 08-14-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I find it strange that they’ve now added a note saying

Quote:
Note: Re-certification services offered for most C6 colorimeters. Refurbished C6 colorimeters do not qualify for re-certifcation services.
Hi Dominic,

There a lot of stuff very interesting happening.

Look the marketing email all we receive for the C6-Refurbish program:



It's clearly say that the Re-furbished meters are getting NIST.

If you look also the actual page where someone had to visit to place order for C6 Re-refurbished meter, it was saying:



It says not only that the meter is calibrated but also changed new parts (when required, what parts? you have to separate the mixing chamber from the meter sensor to open the meter, so filters are exposed), the original old page is there: https://web.archive.org/web/20161102...lorimeter.html

But when someone got a C6-Refurbished meter and he said tha it was saying 2012, Tyler replied that the re-furbished meters are just tested, not getting any NIST: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56791748



This Tyler post is the exact opposite of email/store info.

So why I spend my money to get a C6 calibrated?

Because I was fool trusting all that inaccurate marketing and I payed 595$ + 290$ for clearance to import to Europe (yes, SpectraCAL did a mistake and send via FedEX, while we have talked to ship it only with USPS, while they forgot to include also the tripod holder for i1PRO1 I had ordered also...minor issue).

.....So I bought the C6 while I had i1Display PRO Retail already, and I was so excited that I was about to receive a calibrated meter, but now we found out that the meter is not calibrated from using another spectro, X-Rite performs specific sensor characterization process which can be only performed during the production of the meter with a scanning monochromator or integrated sphere, process only possible to X-Rite factory.

Here is official US government patent (public available with google search of X-Rite holds which describe how the meter can be calibrated (SPMref means reference 1nm spectro):

''The spectral sensitivities of the channels of the CMD are formed by the ratio, at each wavelength, of the power as measured with the SPMref to the output of the CMD at the same wavelength. This could be accomplished, for example, by measuring the output of a scanning monochrometer with both the SPMref and the CMD. Another embodiment is schematically shown in FIG. 2. By means of an adjustable light source Q, which can for example be formed by an integrating sphere equipped with corresponding illuminants and as applicable color filters, light of different colors (different spectral bands) is generated sequentially and gauged by both the color measuring device CMD to be calibrated and spectrally by a high-precision reference spectrophotometer SPMref.''

I have highlighted with hold letters the 2 available calibration methods which can be performed, 1) using monochromator or 2) using integrating sphere.

Only X-Rite to their factory calibrate the meter, and they not offer also any re-calibration service if you asked them.

All i1DisplayPRO's, OEM/Retail/Custom OEM, all are exact the same from the hardware side, and firmware also (when they have the same revision firmware).

You can arrange with X-Rite to enter to custom OEM program where they can ship to you large volume with custom case/colors even outer box with any logo you like, custom meter sticker, just with a more expensive price, and provide what unlocking code you like, to limit the meter to work for your software only.

The calibration procedure X-Rite apply to the factory, its using one of the 2 above methods, they are not using any Spectro @ X-Rite to calibrate each meter, they can use a Minolta (1nm) spectro only when the want to create a specific type of display EDR file.

The X-Rite manufacturing specs are these: http://www.vpixx.com/datasheets/ds_i1display_pro.pdf



These specs are not available to X-Rite webpage because they are the lab specs not possible to reproduce to any other facility except X-Rite during the manufacturing process.

This means that final product can have higher tolerances, but SpectraCAL certify the meters that they measure down to +-0.001 xy and +-2% Y. which is a lot below than the actual instrument specs from the factory.

The same time, the most advanced colorimeter in the market, Minolta CA-410 which cost about 30-40K$, it has +-0.002 xy deviation: https://www.konicaminolta.com/instru...atalog_eng.pdf

Klein K-10aA (7$K) has +-0.002 xy (White) and +-0.004 xy (RGB): https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...+SpecSheet.pdf

Colorimetry Research CR-100 (5.5K$) has +-0.0015 xy: https://www.colorimetryresearch.com/products/cr-100

And all these 3 reference meters which are coming calibrated with certification of performance are not tracking so tight as a C6 meter which has the same calibration as a normal i1Display PRO and while they are shipped from the X-Rite factory without any certification of performace, not only a new C6 but even used C6's (refurbished) get NIST +-0.001 xy and below certification according to SpectraCAL.

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post #101 of 101 Old 08-14-2019, 09:05 AM
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4) What is the reference monitor being used as the transfer device for the original NIST standard that the spectro has been calibrated against? Where I've seen these certificates for other devices (like the Klein units), the details of the reference monitor used as the transfer device are also included on the certificate.

5) Related to 1), are you providing a NIST certificate of calibration, or a NIST certificate of compliance, or a NIST traceable certificate, with meters such as the C6HDR2000, and subsequent recertifiations? This might seem like nit picking, but there is a significant difference between the three and while the test information provided on the certificate makes it look more like a NIST traceable certificate, in the marketing materials for the C6HDR2000 for example it just says NIST certificate. And then the certificate itself refers to calibration! I understand A NIST certificate would mean the device was evaluated directly against NIST standard reference materials, instead of using another device (such as a NIST certified spectro) to transfer that standard, with the terms certification and calibration having special meanings depending on whether the device is adjustable or not.

I've also seen some historic information listing C6 meters as having "NIST calibration certificate from SpectraCal metrology lab - exclusive". That clearly must be a mistake surely? Or were they really at one time NIST calibrated and now they're not - hence the change spotted ref Color lab vs calibration lab change? If they were NIST calibrated previously, how were they?

I think a little more transparency / clarity on exactly what these certificates represent would go a long way, given the cost uplift over an otherwise very similar meter is significant.
Hi, When you calibrate against some standard, you have to compare the instrument against NIST's CRM (Certified Reference Material) which you write that info to all certification paper, the type of NIST CRM you used and its serial number.

There documents you have to follow when you do calibration/certification of a Luminance meter (NIST Special Publication 250-95)

That info is not available to the SpectraCAL NIST cert. paper...so how is possible to provided a NIST paper without including the most basic, the reference material used to check for traceability.

According to spectracal, they use a monitor, but there no exist any monitor as NIST's CRM (Certified Reference Material) or SRM (Standard Reference Material) list of products only NIST can't supply.

Its not that simple for a company to hold a NIST certified lab, the lab need to be certified for ISO 7025:2005 General Requirements for the Competence of Testing and Calibration Laboratory, to be able to provide NIST calibration services, also ISO/IEC 17025 which determines that a laboratory has all of the necessary facilities, equipment, standards, procedures, uncertainty analyses, personnel, etc., which make it capable of providing traceable measurement results. Laboratory accreditation does not speak to the specifics of any individual measurement result but to the overall capability of a lab to provide the service.

You need a certified lamp to perform any lab colorimeter certification, for that reason all profesional hardware meter manufacturers have published for their products specs the deviation from measurement of a reference CIE Illuminant A source (2856 K incandescent source).


So to certify an instrument you need a CIE Illuminant A source NIST CRM material or for calibrate it you need a laboratory grade scanning double monochromator or an integrated sphere....when you will calibrate you can use the NIST CRM lamp material for verification.


NIST only can provide these certified lamps, see one for example: https://shop.nist.gov/ccrz__ProductD..._US&sku=37030C



Tyler, we are waiting to inform us about all these questions which will make more clear the whole procedure about NIST's services SpectraCAL is offering.

I want to be informed also as C6 customer what we can do with my meter, because I bought before years a meter which actually was not calibrated, and the whole provided certification I received was not correct as explained above.

I'm sure you can't do anything now, even PayPal can't do anything to cover me as a customer from SpectraCAL (seller) for a transaction @ 2011...

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