X-Rite i1Display PRO OEM with 2000 nits Luminance Range - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by linux.alucard View Post
But if I don't care about HDR then that doesn't matter right? (LG B6)

Steve, ConnecTEDDD thank you, and sorry for my English!
Hi, for SDR you will have any problem for years, since the max output in SDR mode your B6 has is about ~450 nits calibrated; in case that you will to calibrate a Day mode for a room with a lot of lights/windows etc, for night 120-170 nits peak target is enough.

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post #92 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54637258

All Retail meters are certified up to 1000nits, this is why X-Rite hasn't posted any info to their site product info, press release, news session or nowhere about that new 2000nits certification, because X-Rite and any online shop is selling Retail meters only.

If that update were available for Retail meters, X-Rite should have advertise it from the first day because that feature should have get X-Rite a lot of new sales in retail market.

The only sites which are selling OEM 2017 meters (certified for 2000 nits) are the OEM partners of X-Rite.
There is no difference in performance between the 2017 Rev B OEM and Retail meters in this regard.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...ompliance.html

The X-Rite "certification" sounds to me more like a marketing tactic than a technical specification.

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post #93 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 02:16 PM
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X-Rite have stated that only the OEM is 2000 nits certified.
The Retail version is only 1000 nits certified.

We would not say such things if it were not direct information from X-Rite.

This is the content of an e-mail sent to us from X-Rite in response to our request for confirmation:

Quote:
Q1: The ‘Retail’ version of the i1D3 – what is their max Luma capability?
A1: 1000 nits (cd/m2)

Q2: Also, is there a way to know which serial numbers have the 2000 nits capability?
A2: S/N is of form: OE-{ShortYear: D2}.{HardwareRevision}.{IncrementalNumber: D6}.{Month: D2}
Matter in bold is literal, matter enclosed in brackets is variable {field description : number of digits in string}
• So look for the Short Year string ≥ 17 and you will have everything manufactured Jan 2017 or later

Q3: And, as with the RevB for AIO mode, did the probe change to RevC, or something?
A3: No
At the same time X-Rite provides us a pdf document that further defines the difference between the Retail and OEM versions of the probe.
(That document is covered by an NDA, so I cannot forward that, or cite any extracts from it.)

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post #94 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
There is no difference in performance between the 2017 Rev B OEM and Retail meters in this regard.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...ompliance.html

The X-Rite "certification" sounds to me more like a marketing tactic than a technical specification.
Hi Tom, since the info is coming from inside X-Rite, I don't think they is any conspiracy inside X-Rite to force more OEM sales from Retail sales while the same time X-Rite hasn't say any word to any site/news/press/email/newsletter/blog about the 2000nits capability for Retail meters.

Having a luminance number measured beyond meter specs don't say anything, I mean it doesn't mean that we have to trust that number unless it's inside to company's certified specifications.

Steve has that kind of specification (under NDA) which says that OEM 2017 instruments are certified for 2000nits.

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post #95 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Tom, since the info is coming from inside X-Rite, I don't think they is any conspiracy inside X-Rite to force more OEM sales from Retail sales while the same time X-Rite hasn't say any word to any site/news/press/email/newsletter/blog about the 2000nits capability for Retail meters.

Having a luminance number measured beyond meter specs don't say anything, I mean it doesn't mean that we have to trust that number unless it's inside to company's certified specifications.

Steve has that kind of specification (under NDA) which says that OEM 2017 instruments are certified for 2000nits.
Ted, I have got to say that I find this post bewildering. I have shown as clearly as it is possible to show that the over 2,000 nits performance of a Rev B retail meter and a Rev B OEM meter are essentially identical. I don't know what more you would need. This looks like a case of who are you going to believe, a published spec or your lying eyes? If you don't believe me, then test it yourself.

Frankly, as someone who dealt with X-Rite directly for years on this subject, I find the entire X-Rite policy regarding their retail vs OEM channels for the i1d3 meter pretty much insane. I always have, including long before HDR became an issue. I have no trouble believing that they would do almost anything in this regard.

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post #96 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Ted, I have got to say that I find this post bewildering. I have shown as clearly as it is possible to show that the over 2,000 nits performance of a Rev B retail meter and a Rev B OEM meter are essentially identical. I don't know what more you would need. This looks like a case of who are you going to believe, a published spec or your lying eyes? If you don't believe me, then test it yourself.

Frankly, as someone who dealt with X-Rite directly for years on this subject, I find the entire X-Rite policy regarding their retail vs OEM channels for the i1d3 meter pretty much insane. I always have, including long before HDR became an issue. I have no trouble believing that they would do almost anything in this regard.
Hi Tom, according to SpectraCAL's tests to find meters which can measure beyond meter specs (1000nit), to certificate them for 1300 nits (C6-HDR called), they are saying to their PDF that the meters were reading about 1700 nits but that measurement had large deviation from their reference. This is why I told you that only a high number reported doesn't mean that it will read 3000 nits accurately. I have no reason to not believe your findings.

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post #97 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 03:21 PM
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I've never come across a probe from any manufacturer that just 'stops' reading at any given nits level.
They will continue to read well above their certified max level.
But are those readings valid?
That is the concept of certification.
X-Rite are saying the OEM i1D3 from Jan 2017 onwards is certified to 2000 nits.
The Retail version is not.

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post #98 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Tom, according to SpectraCAL's tests to find meters which can measure beyond meter specs (1000nit), to certificate them for 1300 nits (C6-HDR called), they are saying to their PDF that the meters were reading about 1700 nits but that measurement had large deviation from their reference. This is why I told you that only a high number reported doesn't mean that it will read 3000 nits accurately. I have no reason to not believe your findings.
Well, this is a different point unrelated to the OEM vs. Retail issue. There are definitely unit-to-unit variations between i1d3s, and if the point is that only a subset of i1d3s measure accurately out to 1700 nits or 2000 nits or whatever, then that may or may not be true. I haven't seen any data one way or the other on this. My experience--other than with the 2 meters I recently tested--is with color accuracy in a normal luminance range. The test I did shows that both the OEM and retail meters maintain their color accuracy (+- 0.002xy) out to about 2400 nits and then collapses after that, especially in the red channel.

BTW, measuring deviation from a reference is not really relevant in this context. All you need to test for is relative deviation between readings in a normal luminance range and readings at 2000 nits. Just limit the test with meters that meet your performance requirements at the beginning and see if they change as the luminance levels get high.

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post #99 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
I've never come across a probe from any manufacturer that just 'stops' reading at any given nits level.
They will continue to read well above their certified max level.
But are those readings valid?
That is the concept of certification.
X-Rite are saying the OEM i1D3 from Jan 2017 onwards is certified to 2000 nits.
The Retail version is not.
Steve, this is a really weird discussion. I don't even know what it means for a reading to be "valid" in this context. Either a reading changes as it gets above a specified level of luminance or it doesn't. A "certification" is all but meaningless. The question is how do the meters actually perform? From what I have seen and shown here, the actual performance is the same. I have suggested that the certification you refer to is based on business, rather than technical, grounds. You are, of course, free to test this yourself and share the results with us if you are seeing something different.

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post #100 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Steve, this is a really weird discussion. I don't even know what it means for a reading to be "valid" in this context. Either a reading changes as it gets above a specified level of luminance or it doesn't. A "certification" is all but meaningless. The question is how do the meters actually perform? From what I have seen and shown here, the actual performance is the same. I have suggested that the certification you refer to is based on business, rather than technical, grounds. You are, of course, free to test this yourself and share the results with us if you are seeing something different.
Tom, so X-Rite don't know their products and lying (to their OEM partner....I mean to Steve) when they say that Retail meters are certified up to 1000nits.

Graeme Gill before 2 years tested the i1PRO1 which is certified up to 300 nits and he was able to read about 5400 nits, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post33547897 (while i1PRO2 certified up to 1200 nits)

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post #101 of 117 Old 08-26-2017, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Tom, so X-Rite don't know their products and lying (to their OEM partner....I mean to Steve) when they say that Retail meters are certified up to 1000nits.

Graeme Gill before 2 years tested the i1PRO1 which is certified up to 300 nits and he was able to read about 5400 nits, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post33547897 (while i1PRO2 certified up to 1200 nits)
No, I am not suggesting either that X-Rite does not know their own products nor that they are lying to anyone. What I am suggesting is that they may have business reasons for certifying the OEM meter and withholding certification from the Retail meter. This isn't a "lie". It is, perhaps, creatively misleading, which is not exactly unknown in the business world.

What I do not understand is why on a forum dedicated to AV SCIENCE we are wrapped up in this silly discussion of what a manufacturer has certified. If you want to demonstrate that the certification means anything, then TEST IT!!! Don't take a position solely based on the authority of an interested party. If you want to know the truth then test it. Seek evidence for god's sakes.

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post #102 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 02:09 AM
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I do find this discussion interesting as we're arguing over a spec which is already "looser than a wizard's sleeve"...!

• Luminance Measurement Range: 0.1 cd/m2 to 1,000 cd/m2 (or 2,000 cd/m2 for post jan '17 OEM meters)
• Accuracy: Illuminant A under X-Rite’s standard measurement conditions
o Color = ± 0.004 x, y @ 100 cd/m2
o Luminance = ± 4.0% @ 100 cd/m2
• Short-term repeatability: Illuminant A under X-Rite’s standard measurement conditions
o Color = ± 0.001 x, y @ 100 cd/m2
o Luminance = ± 1.0% @ 100 cd/m2

Per this spec, x-rite are pretty much good so long as it returns any reading at 1,000 / 2,000 cd/m2 and doesn't catch fire...! If you were selling me electronics components for use in my products with this spec I'd tell you either to give me more data or I'd work out how to test myself.

It would be really nice if for transparency some real data were available showing the typical linearity of response (both colour and luma) for all the various meter variants. If I had the gear I'd do it myself, but I'm unlikely to ever get near a high-accuracy high nit spectro.

Reading the Spectracal HDR white paper and comparing this to what @TomHuffman did; it would appear that the bit missing in terms of declaring the recent retail i1d3 meters as good above 2,000 nits is to look at what the colour data does at the high luminance, and to look at a broad sample of meters. Chroma accuracy at high nit might well be the x-rite basis for saying certified or not, and Tom hasn't explored that. And given my points below, a single rev B retail meter doesn't say much. There are lots of scenarios which mean that in the absence of data from the manufacturer it just isn't possible to know whether a given meter is or isn't able.

If x-rite are steadfastly saying the OEM is certified to 2000 and the retail to 1000, these are some of the possibilities.
Note this is all for some definition of "Certified" which it seems certainly no-one who isn't under NDA has seen... great. Clear as mud, which is where a lot of this speculation and mis-trust is coming from. The published specs certainly don't give any clue what this means.

1) Post some date all rev B meters actually read 2000 fine, just they only certify the OEMs to do so (though what is the date, they could be different for OEM vs Retail depending on the manufacturing pipeline process). The date for OEM meters is known to be Jan '17.
2) X-rite themselves are binning them post Jan '17 and giving guaranteed 2000 nit meters to OEM customers, and if you buy retail you might get a 2000 nit capable or not, depending on the yield of meters of each certification and the demand for OEM vs retail.
3) Actual physical or firmware differences between Post Jan '17 OEM meters and everything else, which provide the ability to "certify" reliably to 2000 nit. Those changes might well make it into the retail product or not.

In the absence of clear guidance, the cynical problem is that any meter certification efforts are probably going to cost more than the difference in cost between what you can sell your old meter for and what you can buy a new rev B OEM 2000 nit certified meter for.

I suggest it would be possible to see up to what luminance reading a given meter has repeatable chroma readings using the method used by Spectracal - fixed light source and meter, moving diffuser between them. If you believe that chroma gives bogus readings before luma becomes non-linear then this would be a reasonable strategy and doesn't need expensive test gear, but does need a jig constructing.

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post #103 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 02:40 AM
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Reading the Spectracal HDR white paper and comparing this to what @TomHuffman did; it would appear that the bit missing in terms of declaring the recent retail i1d3 meters as good above 2,000 nits is to look at what the colour data does at the high luminance, and to look at a broad sample of meters.
I only looked at two meters, but the color data for both was consistent. They both maintained their initial color accuracy (+-0.002xy) up to about 2,400 nits. Above that, they fell apart quickly.

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post #104 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 02:51 AM
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Of course we have run our own tests, and the results backup what I've said here.
(We have tested a number of pre-Jan 2017 OEM and Retail, as well as post Jan 2017)
The Retail (and older i1D3) probes all 'read' above 1000 nits, but deviate from the expected results by varying amounts.
The OEM post Jan 2017 maintained the same average level of accuracy to 2000 nits.
I am sure 'some' Retail probes will read well to 2000 nits, but X-Rite are stating they are not certified beyond 1000 nits.
I guess its down to the user if they want to use a Retail probe over 1000 nits, and trust the results?

Having said that, show me an HDR consumer display that is stable above 1000 nits, and I'll be very surprised!

Steve

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post #105 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
They both maintained their initial color accuracy (+-0.002xy) up to about 2,400 nits.
Is it fair to say then that +-0.002xy is the expected colour accuracy up to the max specified nits, despite that only being quoted at 100cd/m2 by x-rite?

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Of course we have run our own tests, and the results backup what I've said here.
(We have tested a number of pre-Jan 2017 OEM and Retail, as well as post Jan 2017)
You said you'd have a look at the low-light behaviour between the various probe variants. Did you find a difference? I'm still sure it is harder to get low light readings out of a rev B than rev A meter for the 2 of each meters I've seen.
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Yes, I forgot to mention that.
We did see a different with the low-light behaviour of the older RevA vs. the later RevB (which was a post Jan 2017 model).
But, it was very hard to quantify, as the 'fake readings' caused some very interesting 'weirdness' that kept tripping us up.

But were were left with a real feeling that the older RevA had a lower-level reading capability.

I have been talking to X-Rite about all this, and they have provided some interesting additional info on the way the low-light readings work (and on the CRT/LCD/AIO modes), but as mentioned above, its under a confidentiality agreement...
I have asked if I can pass on any of the info, but have not yet been given permission

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post #107 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 06:23 AM
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It is difficult to put your finger on it as you say, but they definitely feel quite different in how they react when reading dark patches. I think I've come to the same conclusion - I seem to get a bit more at the low end with CRT mode. From comparing the low points of the RGB balance trace off screen @3s vs off lens @1 & 2s integration (much closer, so higher up the meter's range) I can see that though I get luminance readings all the way down to just over 0.002 cd/m2, that the first reading which appears to have trustworthy chroma is at 0.1cd/m2. The traces below are in that order.
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post #108 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Graeme Gill before 2 years tested the i1PRO1 which is certified up to 300 nits and he was able to read about 5400 nits, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post33547897 (while i1PRO2 certified up to 1200 nits)
I didn't measure accuracy, just what it saturates at. But the nature of the auto-ranging is simply integration time adjustment, so there is no reason to think that it can't be accurate at higher levels, but it would need to be verified.

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post #109 of 117 Old 08-27-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
No, I am not suggesting either that X-Rite does not know their own products nor that they are lying to anyone. What I am suggesting is that they may have business reasons for certifying the OEM meter and withholding certification from the Retail meter. This isn't a "lie". It is, perhaps, creatively misleading, which is not exactly unknown in the business world.
To be fair, there is a bit more to it than that. Yes it would appear that the retail and OEM products roll off the same production line, and so are both likely to be just as accurate at higher brightnesses, but conceivably there could be unit to unit variation that means that some units are not within specs at higher levels. So if OEM units are tested and the (presumably very few) that fail are rejected, while the retail units are not tested at higher levels, then the certification provides a guarantee that's missing from the retail units. So the percentage of retail units that are not accurate at higher brightnesses is unknown. Could be close to 0%, or (worst case) the i1d3 units are being sorted by their high level accuracy, the best being labelled as OEM units and the worst going into the retail bucket. Of course the latter is a poor manufacturing setup - far better to manufacture all units to the same quality level rather than relying on sorting them afterwards, and hoping you get the right yields.
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
To be fair, there is a bit more to it than that. Yes it would appear that the retail and OEM products roll off the same production line, and so are both likely to be just as accurate at higher brightnesses, but conceivably there could be unit to unit variation that means that some units are not within specs at higher levels. So if OEM units are tested and the (presumably very few) that fail are rejected, while the retail units are not tested at higher levels, then the certification provides a guarantee that's missing from the retail units. So the percentage of retail units that are not accurate at higher brightnesses is unknown. Could be close to 0%, or (worst case) the i1d3 units are being sorted by their high level accuracy, the best being labelled as OEM units and the worst going into the retail bucket. Of course the latter is a poor manufacturing setup - far better to manufacture all units to the same quality level rather than relying on sorting them afterwards, and hoping you get the right yields.
Sure, that's possible, but based on the literally hundreds of i1d3s I have measured as part of the correction process I am virtually certain that this is not being done. I have seen no evidence that OEM meters have closer tolerances than retail meters. So far as I can tell the only difference between them is packaging and support for the i1Profiler software, which only the retail meters have.

Interestingly, I wish that X-Rite provided OEM meters with some functionality or some extra feature that the retail meters did not have. This would offer consumers some incentive to purchase OEM meters.

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post #111 of 117 Old 08-28-2017, 04:12 AM
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On the basis that the C6 was a 'select-on-test' unit, with the 'select' performed by X-Rite, I suspect that is exactly what they do with the 2000 nit OEM versions...

I am not sure I'm happy with that either, but it does seem to be the situation.
(X-Rite will neither confirm, nor deny any of this - at least not as yet.)

We have however seen a real increase in interest in the Basiccolor Discus.
It is more expensive, but offers a tangible benefit in capability over the i1D3.

One thing we have found in our on-going tests is the i1D3 seems to suffer a lot more heat related instability.
We are testing more, but the metal case of the Discus does seem to make the probe a lot more thermally stable.

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post #112 of 117 Old 12-02-2019, 04:22 PM
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Is this product legit: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1

Is that a new retail version of the post-Jan 2017 Rev B OEM?
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post #113 of 117 Old 12-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrens View Post
Is this product legit: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1

Is that a new retail version of the post-Jan 2017 Rev B OEM?
Yes. But it is currently NOT supported by any 3rd-party calibration software.

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post #114 of 117 Old 12-02-2019, 04:45 PM
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Yes. But it is currently NOT supported by any 3rd-party calibration software.
Ah. Thank you for that.

In that case, accounting for the modest price difference between the retail (EODIS3) and OEM versions (an additional $60 for the OEM, in my case), the better purchase would be the post-Jan 2017 OEM version? And at this stage, can I presume that Portraitdisplays is now shipping post-Jan 2017 versions?
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post #115 of 117 Old 12-02-2019, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrens View Post
Ah. Thank you for that.

In that case, accounting for the modest price difference between the retail (EODIS3) and OEM versions (an additional $60 for the OEM, in my case), the better purchase would be the post-Jan 2017 OEM version? And at this stage, can I presume that Portraitdisplays is now shipping post-Jan 2017 versions?
Most likely they are. But you'd have to ask them. If they do the same as some other vendors, these will be drop-shipped to you direct from X-Rite so would be new production.

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Last edited by Rolls-Royce; 12-02-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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post #116 of 117 Old 12-03-2019, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrens View Post
Ah. Thank you for that.

In that case, accounting for the modest price difference between the retail (EODIS3) and OEM versions (an additional $60 for the OEM, in my case), the better purchase would be the post-Jan 2017 OEM version? And at this stage, can I presume that Portraitdisplays is now shipping post-Jan 2017 versions?
The i1Display PRO Plus retail has the same exact features as hardware with the i1Display PRO OEM (both are rated for 2000 nits).

The problem is that its unknown if or when i1Display PRO Plus will be supported from 3rd party software, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58832868

The normal OEM is out from 2011, just from January 2017 all normal OEM's are 2000 nit rated.

All normal Retail of any year are 1000 nits rated.

There are the official meter specs from X-Rite for i1Display PRO Retail or OEM's manufactured before January 2017:



There are the official meter specs from X-Rite for i1Display PRO OEM (from meter produced after January 2017)...same specs as i1Display PRO Plus...just the PRO Plus is not supported by any 3rd party calibration software currently:



There are the official meter's comparison specs from X-Rite anounced @ September 2019 presentation of the i1 line.

i1Display PRO Plus has the same luminance range as the i1Display PRO OEM:

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post #117 of 117 Old 12-03-2019, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Most likely they are. But you'd have to ask them. If they do the same as some other vendors, these will be drop-shipped to you direct from X-Rite so would be new production.
According to X-Rite, we are the only supplier that doesn't stock the OEM, and drop-ships direct from X-Rite.
(As you say, that ensures no on-shelf ageing of any probe.)

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