BasICColor DISCUS Owners thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHamburg View Post
Hi Miki et al.,
I'm sure you also tried to use the Discus with your OLED in Calman.
What were your results?
I keep getting something like this:


The x and y values are almost completely identical...
I only have the old Calman version 5.6.1. Does it have anything to do with that? Newer versions maybe being more compatible to OLEDs?
Are there any settings that I could change?
I did profile the Discus to my i1pro2 and use "High Average and Long Integration".
I also put the Discus on a tripod and tested for a position that would give me the highest brighness.
I believe it must be possible to at least get some kind of Greyscale readings...

Any hints are very much appreciated!
I don't use Calman, but it just looks like an oddity of the chart.

The peak white isn't D65, but is constant colour temperature down to darkness; but the chart would lead you to believe something else.
I think it might have been discussed in the past that Calman in its wisdom applied some kind of scaling to the RGB balance chart as it got darker intended to reflect differing sensitivity to colour error. I think this results in this characteristic shape. dE2000 formula also has a similar scaling.

As has already been explained though, even if you get to the point of having charts that look right, you'll likely still get results which are wrong using the Discus on the WRGB OLED, because folk don't tend to verify back to spectro (they do an FCMM matrix and then do their verification with the colorimeter with that matrix, which in this case is inherently incapable of useful correction). Calman doesn't have any mechanism to try and deal with this as FCMM isn't suitable, LS has a mechanism but it is also of some limited use as the spectro really needs to be tip top.

Given the choice I'd use an i1d3 over a Discus with a WRGB OLED. The filters tend to be better matches to CIE in the i1d3, so your colours should be more accurate. The issues with dark measures should just be dealt with by avoiding measuring below the capabilities of the i1d3.
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post #62 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
You might want to search the various threads where the same 'info' has been posted repeatedly, and check out the responses form other madVR/LightSpace users.
You will see the truth of the situation.

We have replied repeatedly, and have basically given up trying to explain the truth.
Some people just will not listen.

And LightSpace HTL is nowhere near a thousand bucks...
Where do you get that figure from?

Steve
If you are so confident that the product is usable with madVR, why not offer a time limited free trial to @TimHamburg ? I just see on the website that you are offering free 3-day Lightspace licenses. Any reason why you are not willing to extend this offer to @TimHamburg ? Hopefully in 3 days he should be able to see if the software is working for him or not?

I have posted this information in public forums because Light Illusion has repeatedly refused to fix these issues, and I think people should know about these bugs, shortcomings and quirks with madVR before buying the product.

Light Illusion as an uncanny ability to not read posts. Two examples (and I'm convinced that in your next reply you will still not have read my post below):

1) @TimHamburg is considering Lightspace for his Discus. Is there a license that provides Discus support for significantly less than $1000?

2) You keep insinuating that I'm incompetent and don't understand the need for various video filters in Lightspace. I completely understand that need. What I disagree with are the reasons, and what to do about it.

a) The reasons are because Lightspace, unlike other software, generates by default LUTs that are not compatible with madVR. They do not follow the madVR specs, which requires video level LUTs. There is no issue in madVR. Every software that follows the specs and creates LUTs for madVR that use video levels have no issue. Lightspace doesn't. This is why it is needed to apply a filter on each and every LUT generated, for most users.

b) Given that Light Illusion doesn't seem to be willing or able to fix this bug, i.e. to generate LUTs for madVR that follow the madVR specs, the least they could do would be to allow the user to specify once and for all which filter needs to be applied, so that it's applied automatically by Lightspace to each LUT. For each user, the filter will remain the same as long as they don't change their video chain. Unfortunately, Lightspace doesn't support madVR specifically, so it's up to the user to make each LUT generated compatible, by applying manually the same filter, every single time. Saying that you need to provide the "flexibility" of choosing between five different filters might be valid for pro calibrators who calibrate a different chain each time, but it's not valid to an end user calibrating their own system. So this inability to specify which filter we want to apply is adding insult to injury: not only there is a bug in Lightspace not present in other software following the madVR specs, but there is no will from Light Illusion to make the process easier by adding a simple option so that the relevant filter, different for each user but the same in each session if the user calibrates their own system, can be specified.

I have no idea why, instead of processing the above information, and either agreeing that it's not ideal from a user interface point of view or finding a way to improve it, you prefer to insinuate that the person making the comment is incompetent and doesn't understand the "workflow" or why filters need to be applied when LUTs with the wrong levels are generated. The vague and daunting madVR documentation about filters was put together after I reported this issue to you. Before that, Light Illusion had no idea that a filter had to be applied to make the LUT compatible, so I suppose many madVR users were just happily using invalid LUTs (and possibly still are).

I haven't seen any reply from you or anyone else in any of the threads where I reported these issues offering a simpler workflow, or explaining what I was doing wrong. If I have missed it, please feel free to point us to such a solution, if it exists.

Like many, my chain is as follows: GPU Full, madVR Limited, display limited. So I'm using video levels through the whole chain and my levels are 100% correct. Both [typo corected] DisplayCAL (which, unfortunately, doesn't support the Discus) and Calman support this configuration automatically. I specify video levels in both software, and they generate a 3D LUT that is valid, every single time. They also upload the LUT automatically to madVR, while Lightspace requires another manual step.

If you fail to see why this is preferable for the user to the ten steps or so for each LUT required by Lightspace, then there is little to add.

Frankly, I don't understand why you keep this off-topic conversation going. If you're confident in the software, give a free 3-day Lightspace license to @TimHamburg , and let him report how he gets on with his Discus in this thread. That would be the simplest and easiest way to settle the matter.

I'd love to hear what an impartial user would say after having three days to try to get results from the product with his Discus and madVR.

If you don't agree to this, I'll let readers to guess why that is so, when Light Illusion are currently advertising free 3-day licenses on their website.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm off. Please refrain from another personal attack, I won't reply but will report the post.

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post #63 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:29 PM
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Yep, not reading that...

Steve
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post #64 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Yep, not reading that...

Steve
That's your problem

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post #65 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:40 PM
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From a madVR, LS, CM user , waisting few seconds to set some ip and apply some filter is fine by me if the final results worth it.
What's is not acceptable is a suddent disconnection between CM and madtpg in the middle of a long profile.
What's is not acceptable is spending hours and ending up with nasty artifacts "near black colored shads, posterzation.."

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post #66 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Like many, my chain is as follows: GPU Full, madVR Limited, display limited. So I'm using video levels through the whole chain and my levels are 100% correct. Neither DisplayCAL (which, unfortunately, doesn't support the Discus) and Calman support this configuration automatically. I specify video levels in both software, and they generate a 3D LUT that is valid, every single time. They also upload the LUT automatically to madVR, while Lightspace requires another manual step.
Something seems confusing here. Do DisplayCAL and CalMAN support this configurations or not?
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post #67 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Something seems confusing here. Do DisplayCAL and CalMAN support this configurations or not?
Thanks for pointing this out, it's a typo, now corrected. I meant "both", not "Neither".

Both CM and DC support my (standard) configuration. They both support madVR, but CM supports the Discus and DC doesn't (sadly).

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
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post #68 of 122 Old 03-23-2020, 01:54 PM
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Tim, the only way to use Discus with a WRGB OLED is using a Multi point Volumetric Probe Matching. Period.

I see you are quoting Manni01. I’m sorry but I stopped reading his novels since some time now. What I can say about his “issue” is that:

1. (Almost all) Human beings have an opposable thumb that allows them to keep a mouse still and click a couple times its button to select the desired videoscale. It’s like that also with eecolor and not one ever complained about that. It’s related to companies point of view, Apple has its view, Light Illusion has its view, etc. etc.. I prefer not to be guided, it’s harder at the beginning but you learn so much that when you feel finally more comfortable you could teach to 90% of so called professional calibrators.

2. Jokes apart, you don’t need to use any LUT manipulation videoscale with WRGB OLED.

Miki

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post #69 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 07:29 AM
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So back to some calibrating with the Discus:
With a JVC projector how far from the screen would you place the meter?
Right now the Discus is facing up, laser pointing in the middle of a 10% window,
at about 50cm/20inches distance from the laser point.
I notice that going a bit closer (ca. 15cm), Red goes from +0.5 to +0.8.
Is it the general rule to search for the position, that gives me the highest brightness (Y)?
Or how are you doing it?
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post #70 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 07:36 AM
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I did some meter profiling, too: Discus against a i1pro2 with the RS540.
What do think about these offsets?
One lazy question: Do you make a fresh profile everytime before you start to calibrate?

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post #71 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 08:27 AM
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Hi Tim,

If you want to roughly match the field of view of the i1pro2 and the Discus, I recommend having the Discus at around one foot and the i1pro2 at around 2 feet (making sure that the Discus isn’t in the i1pro2 line of sight, obviously). There was a white paper on the Spectracal website with the field of views of common meters (including the i1pro and the Discus). Not sure if it’s still on the Portrait website. [EDIT: here is the link: https://app.spectracal.com/Documents...%20Article.pdf ]. That’s where I got these approximate distances from (you can work them out more precisely if you want). They give me accurate, repeatable results.

I also recommend, only when doing the profile, to put the Discus in long integration and high average mode and to enable the low light option in the i1pro2 with a threshold set to 500nits and 10-30 measurements, so that all measurements are taken with the highest accuracy, and as an average of many measurements, because the JVCs are very unstable at 70nits and above (especially the eshift model you have, the new 4K models are more stable with far less flicker at high luminance).

This should give you a very reliable and accurate profile.

Of course, when measuring, bring the Discus down to its fastest mode for large LUTs. With a Lightning LUT, I actually keep it in its most accurate mode, as it only takes less than 20 min (vs less than 10) and the results are slightly better.

Always do contrast measurements after a dark recal, and if you measure large LUTs try to order the patterns so that the darkest ones are measured first, up to the brightest ones last. This will significantly improve results for the darkest patterns, as the darkest measurements are those that become less reliable as you get further from the last dark recal.

Also do a dark recal before gamma readings, especially if you need to read black for BT1886. Otherwise the black value (hence all the BT1886 targets) won’t be optimal.

If you use the JVC Autocal before a LUT, or before finetuning manually, I recommend using 100% patterns, otherwise you will make unnecessary corrections when you fine-tune the calibration. The autocal uses 100% patterns and using a different pattern size in the other calibration software will increase the differences, which you don’t want or you’ll waste some brightness.

Otherwise, 10% is too small for a JVC, that’s unnecessary and it can get the meters to read some black as they both have a fairly wide FOV.

I use a 1% pattern to position the Discus so that it reads the centre of the screen (using the laser pointer) and the i1pro2 (maximising brightness when reading 100% white), to make sure that both meters read the same area of the screen. Then I use a 100% pattern if I have used autocal, otherwise a 25% pattern (or larger).

Of course, you need one profile per calibration type if you use the filter, or if you use different lamp modes.

So typically I have one profile for rec-709 SDR and one for P3 SDR (I use madVR/Envy, so no BT2020).

You don’t need to have different profiles for different gamma curves and/or different iris settings, so if you use the same filter/lamp position, you can use the same profile for a power gamma and a PQ curve in two different calibrations, for example SDR BT2020 and HDR10.

You will not have a single profile that works accurately for all the calibrations, unless they all use the same filter/lamp mode.

Once that is done, I use the profiles from the last session for quick checks because I put the meters at exactly the same position/angle and my room is a bat cave.

If I do a proper calibration session, I always refresh my profiles (super easy to do in Calman), after a 45min warm up for both the meters and the JVC.

Note that if your room has no A/C, the projector will keep drifting after 45 minutes, so no accurate calibration/verification can be done, even after a 45 min. warm-up.

Hope this helps, but remember that this comes apparently from someone who doesn’t understand calibration basics, such as setting the levels correctly in a video chain, or who doesn’t have opposite thumbs to use a mouse properly, so take with a pinch of salt

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post #72 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 08:46 AM
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Cool

Thank you, Manni!
I'll work my way through those tips!
And believe me: After having studied your posts in the "Autocal V6 & 7" thread countless times (many thanks for those!!!),
I have a very positive opinion about your thumbs - no salt needed.
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post #73 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 01:51 PM
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Let's see, basICColor officially declares that at 100 cm (3,28 feet) the Discus has a FOV of 7 cm* (2,76 inches), how could have Darrel Bird measured 7,1 inches (18 cm) at 3 feet is a mystery to me. It's almost 2.5x the OFFICIAL FOV, a super mega very large gaussian response!

In the humble opinion of an homo sapiens sapiens, if the Discus is at 1 foot (30,5 cm) from the screen (approximately 0,85 inches - 2,6 cm FOV), then the i1 Pro 2 should be at 0,61 feet (18,5 cm). And I'm still not talking about the basics of calibration... this is arithmetic preceded by simple logic.

So if you got accurate and repeatable results, it's just because you have no (or very small) uniformity issues at those distances.

* diameter of the actual area being measured.

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post #74 of 122 Old 03-25-2020, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Let's see, basICColor officially declares that at 100 cm (3,28 feet) the Discus has a FOV of 7 cm* (2,76 inches), how could have Darrel Bird measured 7,1 inches (18 cm) at 3 feet is a mystery to me. It's almost 2.5x the OFFICIAL FOV, a super mega very large gaussian response!

In the humble opinion of an homo sapiens sapiens, if the Discus is at 1 foot (30,5 cm) from the screen (approximately 0,85 inches - 2,6 cm FOV), then the i1 Pro 2 should be at 0,61 feet (18,5 cm). And I'm still not talking about the basics of calibration... this is arithmetic preceded by simple logic.

So if you got accurate and repeatable results, it's just because you have no (or very small) uniformity issues at those distances.

* diameter of the actual area being measured.
This document has been used by the community for years. I would have expected someone like @ConnecTEDDD to let us know if there was any problem in Darryl's methodology. Given that, like myself, he has been using this table for many years and has, like myself, recommended it on many occasions, for example here, I suggest you ask Ted. I entirely trust him in such matters. Maybe @WiFi-Spy can ask @DarrylB if he thinks there is any issue in his calculations?

By the way I said "roughly". I used to use 2 ft for the Discus and 3ft for the ipro2. I think it's more important to think about field of view if you use a small pattern size or are measuring from further away from the screen.

At least with my many JVCs over last ten years or so I never had any kind of issues using these distances. I've even started using both meters at the same distance for convenience and I've had no issues either, but I don't have enough data to be as positive as for the distances I mentioned earlier.

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post #75 of 122 Old 03-26-2020, 12:53 AM
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The community is a flock of sheeps when it comes to counter test something, especially if it comes from a “high” level source.

I’m not saying that Darryl lied or something like that, just that his test on the Discus doesn’t align with official specifications. Another proof is that i1D3 has officially a FOV of 24mm in contact, on the test it has 25 mm at 135 mm distance and 56mm at 305 mm while Discus has 61 mm. Something went wrong there. Darryl himself specified in another post that his measures are more accurate at longer distances...

You should also ask basICColor if they think there are errors in their calculations.

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post #76 of 122 Old 03-26-2020, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
The community is a flock of sheeps when it comes to counter test something, especially if it comes from a “high” level source.

I’m not saying that Darryl lied or something like that, just that his test on the Discus doesn’t align with official specifications. Another proof is that i1D3 has officially a FOV of 24mm in contact, on the test it has 25 mm at 135 mm distance and 56mm at 305 mm while Discus has 61 mm. Something went wrong there. Darryl himself specified in another post that his measures are more accurate at longer distances...

You should also ask basICColor if they think there are errors in their calculations.
I don't think that Ted or myself qualify as sheep, whether a source is high level or not, but I'll let him comment if he wishes to.

As for myself, I have one more user in my ignore list and I'm off for now.

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Flock of sheep is a metaphor indicating a group of people following a trusted leader. I was part of that flock until I started my own tests which raised some doubt, then someone privately pointed out the official Discus specifications...

Nothing to be offended for...

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post #78 of 122 Old 03-26-2020, 05:04 AM
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From the data we have, the Discus has a spot size as follows:

@ 0cm = 0.7cm
@ 24cm = 4cm
@ 37.5cm = 6cm
@ 50cm = 8cm

With an aperture angle of 4.5 deg.

I have requested confirmation from the manufacturer.

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post #79 of 122 Old 03-26-2020, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
From the data we have, the Discus has a spot size as follows:

@ 0cm = 0.7cm
@ 24cm = 4cm
@ 37.5cm = 6cm
@ 50cm = 8cm

With an aperture angle of 4.5 deg.

I have requested confirmation from the manufacturer.

Steve
Thanks Steve.

What is your equivalent data for the i1pro2, to help @TimHamburg match the FOV of both meters? Also is what you call spot size the same as TLT, FWHM, or is it something else entirely?

We need measurements of the same data in the same unit for both meters to be able to match their FOV. This is what Darryl’s document provides.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva

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post #80 of 122 Old 03-26-2020, 07:33 AM
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Thank you, guys!
Your input on this is very much appreciated - and I'm working hard on my profiling skills...

Are there any grave disadvantages to first taking the profiling measurements with the i1pro2
and after that taking the Discus readings - so not simultaniously?
This is with my JVC RS540 of the screen.
I did a lot of testing yesterday, with the Discus at 1 foot and the 1ipro2 at 2 feet,
but I was never absolutely sure that the Discus's
shadow wasn't in the way of the i1pro2.

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Originally Posted by TimHamburg View Post
Thank you, guys!
Your input on this is very much appreciated - and I'm working hard on my profiling skills...

Are there any grave disadvantages to first taking the profiling measurements with the i1pro2
and after that taking the Discus readings - so not simultaniously?
This is with my JVC RS540 of the screen.
I did a lot of testing yesterday, with the Discus at 1 foot and the 1ipro2 at 2 feet,
but I was never absolutely sure that the Discus's
shadow wasn't in the way of the i1pro2.
As I said, I’m currently using the Discus and i1pro2 on the same dual-head tripod (both at the same distance) with no negative incidence, so you can try that with large patterns (at least 50%) and both meters ar 1-2 feet. Unless your rs540 has more uniformity issue than all my previous and current JVCs, it should be wroking fine. I like the convenience of simultaneous measurements.

If you don’t measure them simultaneously, make sure that they read the same area, and don’t move them (especially the Discus) after profiling.

As people seem to question Darryl’s measurements, I’d wait for Steve to provide the full information before attempting to match FOV. Here, with the JVCs, it’s not critical, at least with large enough patterns if you are close enough to the screen.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As I said, I’m using the Discus and i1pro2 on the same dual-head tripod with no negative incidence, so you can try that with large patterns (at least 50%) and both meters ar 1-2 feet. Unless your rs540 has more uniformity issue than all my previous and current JVCs, it should be wroking fine.

If you don’t measure them simultaneously, make sure that they read the same area.

As people seem to question Darryl’s measurements, I’d wait for Steve to provide the full information before attempting to match FOV. Here, with the JVCs, it’s not critical, at least with large enough patterns if you are close enough to the screen.
Thanks. I use only fullscreen patterns now (as per your recommandation), as I've done Autocal for all my 4 different usage modes (lamp power, CMD, Filter), that I use.
Is there a trick to find out where the i1pro2 is pointing.
The Discus's laser pointer is really useful in that way.
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Thanks. I use only fullscreen patterns now (as per your recommandation), as I've done Autocal for all my 4 different usage modes (lamp power, CMD, Filter), that I use.
Is there a trick to find out where the i1pro2 is pointing.
The Discus's laser pointer is really useful in that way.
The trick is in my first post (the "novel")

You first set your pattern size to 1%.

You then use the LED in the Discus to aim at the center of this very small window. Very easy and accurate given the small window size.

You then switch the Discus LED off, and run a constant measurement of the 1% pattern at 100% brightness, with the i1pro2 measuring this time (in highest speed mode).

Because the pattern is very small, you can easily, by maximising brightness on both the vertical and horizontal directions, be reasonably sure that you're measuring the same spot (or very close) as the Discus, at the center of the screen.

Once both meters are set, you switch back to 100% size patterns (or whatever size if you've not used the JVC Autocal previously) and start measuring.

By the way, always leave at least 10-15min before measuring every time you change the lamp mode. It takes a long time for the measurements to stabilize when swapping between high and normal, or vice-versa.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva

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One more:
Did any of you try to use an extension USB cable with the DISCUS.
Any problems with that?

My i1pro2 will not work with either of my 2 passive USB extensions - I get an error when taking the reference white reading.
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One more:
Did any of you try to use an extension USB cable with the DISCUS.
Any problems with that?

My i1pro2 will not work with either of my 2 passive USB extensions - I get an error when taking the reference white reading.
Using just an extension isn't recommended, especially with the i1pro2. If you need more length, use a powered hub. I use one extension going to a powered hub that serves the Discus, the i1pro2 and the Spyder X with no issue. Make sure the hub power is at least 2A.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva

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Great. I've implemented that one already. (since I do read your novels...)
Should I get similar brightness readings from both meters?
The Discus readings are always a bit lower than i1pro2's.
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Great. I've implemented that one already. (since I do read your novels...)
Should I get similar brightness readings from both meters?
The Discus readings are always a bit lower than i1pro2's.
No, you won't get the same brightness levels before profiling, but the Discus should report the same brightness as the i1pro2 after profiling.

What I do is I set 100% white to D65 with the i1pro using a layout in CM that shows both color temp and brightness, then I profile the Discus, then I check that the Discus reads the same brightness and RGB balance as the i1pro2.

You can also use one of @ConnecTEDDD 's excellent layouts for Calman to verify the meter measurements for white and RGB, if you CM workflow doesn't offer one.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
No, you won't get the same brightness levels before profiling, but the Discus should report the same brightness as the i1pro2 after profiling.

What I do is I set 100% white to D65 with the i1pro using a layout in CM that shows both color temp and brightness, then I profile the Discus, then I check that the Discus reads the same brightness and RGB balance as the i1pro2.

You can also use one of @ConnecTEDDD 's excellent layouts for Calman to verify the meter measurements for white and RGB, if you CM workflow doesn't offer one.
Great, thanks!
I'll try that one.
For now I'll just put the Discus at 1 foot and the i1pro2 at 2 feet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHamburg View Post
One more:
Did any of you try to use an extension USB cable with the DISCUS.
Any problems with that?

My i1pro2 will not work with either of my 2 passive USB extensions - I get an error when taking the reference white reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Using just an extension isn't recommended, especially with the i1pro2. If you need more length, use a powered hub. I use one extension going to a powered hub that serves the Discus, the i1pro2 and the Spyder X with no issue. Make sure the hub power is at least 2A.
Tim, if you need specifics these are what I use with the Discus and i1pro2 (non-referral links to Amazon):
Amazon 7 port 4A hub
Tripp Lite 36ft USB2 extender
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Tim, if you need specifics these are what I use with the Discus and i1pro2 (non-referral links to Amazon):
Amazon 7 port 4A hub
Tripp Lite 36ft USB2 extender
Thank you!
Now I just have to check if I get the same ones here in Germany.
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