Accuracy Test for the i1Pro 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 100 Old 09-26-2017, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Accuracy Test for the i1Pro 2

I have often wondered just how accurate the i1Pro 2 was, but I never got around to testing it. I just completed that test, and the results are pretty much what I expected. For details see this page on our web site.
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post #2 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 08:20 AM
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Interesting testing, thanks for sharing.

I recently had cause to compare my old 2nd hand i1pro rev D to a much newer (but still 2nd hand) i1pro2 that I had opportunity to buy as an "upgrade"... the results surprised me in how close they were. I too had the highest discrepancy between the white readings (UHP JVC projector) but it was still only a shade over 1dE2000. Still, I liked the idea of it being a bit newer, the much improved tripod mount and the supposed resistance to drift, so I kept the i1pro2 and sold the i1prorevD. See the attached results I had.

As what you're measuring is just the inter-device agreement between and i1pro2 and high end spectro, you might have a particularly good i1pro2 in your hands. Any idea on that? The only comparison I've see of multiple i1pros seemed to suggest max 3.5dE2000 difference for white.

What kind of real-world inter-device agreement can be expected between high-grade spectros?

Is there any mileage in using the "high resolution" 3.3nm mode that ArgyllCMS supports with laser etc light sources? (I guess a question for @gwgill )
https://www.argyllcms.com/doc/i1proHiRes.html

When do "Dark readings" occur - is it silently? You are only ever prompted in LS and ArgyllCMS to place it on the calibration tile (which obviously isn't dark in colour). Or do these trigger a dark reading on the calibration tile by not having the lamp on during the reading? Is it important for all ambient light to be removed during those calibration tile reads?
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post #3 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
I have often wondered just how accurate the i1Pro 2 was, but I never got around to testing it. I just completed that test, and the results are pretty much what I expected. For details see this page on our web site.
Thank you Tom.
Would you say there's much to be gained by using the i1Pro 2 to profile the i1Display Pro III colorimeter, assuming we're dealing with a display type that is directly supported by the i1Display?
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post #4 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thank you Tom.
Would you say there's much to be gained by using the i1Pro 2 to profile the i1Display Pro III colorimeter, assuming we're dealing with a display type that is directly supported by the i1Display?
In my own tests I recently compared the i1pro2 I have here with my i1d3 OEM rev A on a CCFL LCD.
The difference was negligible (<0.5dE across the board), so for that TV I wouldn't bother again...
The JVC X30 is a little further (maybe up to 2dE) though I wouldn't like to bet that isn't user error in setting up the meters with the same field of view, angle and position (my screen is ALR so angle makes quite a difference).

Of course the difficulty is knowing for a given display how well it is represented by the options. My CCFL LCD is better represented by the GENERIC CMF setting than the CCFL setting, for example, vs my i1pro2 (very small difference though). They're all close enough not to matter. But I guess you wouldn't have a clue about that without having the i1pro2 to hand.

Now the Discus, on the other hand, really seems to benefit from matching with i1pro to both the Sony CCFL and X30. So I'm very glad I have the i1pro2 as a recent Discus purchaser...!
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post #5 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The JVC X30 is a little further (maybe up to 2dE) though I wouldn't like to bet that isn't user error in setting up the meters with the same field of view, angle and position (my screen is ALR so angle makes quite a difference).
For the dE values you quoted, are they the differences between using the custom meter profile and the generic meter profile?
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post #6 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For the dE values you quoted, are they the differences between using the custom meter profile and the generic meter profile?
No, they're the dE2000 between the probe-matching patches used by LS for each probe.
I run the probe matching sequence for each probe (3xeach of RGBW averaged) in quick succession and then use an online dE2000 calculator (like the Colormine one http://colormine.org/delta-e-calculator/cie2000) to work out the dE between the corresponding patches. The probe matching function creates a file like this, one for each meter. These are a couple of random profiles from my history of meters:

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?>
<builder_color_space name="[OE-14.B-01.101337.04] i1d3 oemA react3 20170812" version="2">
    <head>
        <x red="0.657252" green="0.318749" blue="0.145245" white="0.307572" />
        <y red="0.344824" green="0.656133" blue="0.037508" white="0.334191" />
        <L red="9.10012" green="36.0637" blue="2.27117" white="47.4436" />
        <gamma>1.000000</gamma>
    </head>
</builder_color_space>
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?>
<builder_color_space name="[1034865] i1pro2 react3 20170812" version="2">
    <head>
        <x red="0.652476" green="0.323287" blue="0.147815" white="0.31077" />
        <y red="0.338413" green="0.650589" blue="0.0421808" white="0.333429" />
        <L red="9.11159" green="35.4785" blue="2.52704" white="46.685" />
        <gamma>1.000000</gamma>
    </head>
</builder_color_space>
See attached for the results. I'm not convinced by the colormine calculator - it doesn't always return a result for some reason (I'm assuming this means very very small difference, as if I fiddle the y value away a little it will make a very small dE appear instead of no dE).
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post #7 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
I have often wondered just how accurate the i1Pro 2 was, but I never got around to testing it. I just completed that test, and the results are pretty much what I expected. For details see this page on our web site.
Good stuff Tom,how would an enhanced I1D3 compare to your reference spectrometer ?




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post #8 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As what you're measuring is just the inter-device agreement between and i1pro2 and high end spectro, you might have a particularly good i1pro2 in your hands. Any idea on that? The only comparison I've see of multiple i1pros seemed to suggest max 3.5dE2000 difference for white.
Yes. The only way to know that would be to test multiple i1Pro 2's, which I did not do. My sense, though, is that the inter-instrument variation with the i1Pro 2 is quite small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
What kind of real-world inter-device agreement can be expected between high-grade spectros?
Assuming neither is in need of calibration, the inter-device agreement should be quite good. In the metamerism failure test I just did, I used the CR-300 and the JETI 1211 to measure WRGB on three displays, and the average variance was xy0.0009. The largest variance was xy0.0017.

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Is there any mileage in using the "high resolution" 3.3nm mode that ArgyllCMS supports with laser etc light sources? (I guess a question for @gwgill )
https://www.argyllcms.com/doc/i1proHiRes.html
Yes, that is a question for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
When do "Dark readings" occur - is it silently? You are only ever prompted in LS and ArgyllCMS to place it on the calibration tile (which obviously isn't dark in colour). Or do these trigger a dark reading on the calibration tile by not having the lamp on during the reading? Is it important for all ambient light to be removed during those calibration tile reads?
I continue to use the term "dark reading" out of habit, but it is really correcting against the calibration tile as you point out.

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post #9 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thank you Tom.
Would you say there's much to be gained by using the i1Pro 2 to profile the i1Display Pro III colorimeter, assuming we're dealing with a display type that is directly supported by the i1Display?
Usually, yes. The unit-to-unit variation accuracy of the i1d3 is non-trivial. I have had some of them in our lab that are scarily accurate, most are not that good, and a few are not very good at all. The typical i1d3 would benefit from a i1Pro2 profile, though the details would depend on the display type.

Some day I'll do a test of the i1d3 similar to the one I did here with the i1Pro. The problem is that I have so much data on the i1d3 I would have to make a decision about sample size.

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post #10 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
No, they're the dE2000 between the probe-matching patches used by LS for each probe.
I run the probe matching sequence for each probe (3xeach of RGBW averaged) in quick succession and then use an online dE2000 calculator (like the Colormine one http://colormine.org/delta-e-calculator/cie2000) to work out the dE between the corresponding patches. The probe matching function creates a file like this, one for each meter. These are a couple of random profiles from my history of meters:

See attached for the results. I'm not convinced by the colormine calculator - it doesn't always return a result for some reason (I'm assuming this means very very small difference, as if I fiddle the y value away a little it will make a very small dE appear instead of no dE).
I wouldn't use that calculator. The results are not correct, for CIEDE2000 anyway.
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post #11 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Good stuff Tom,how would an enhanced I1D3 compare to your reference spectrometer ?
On the same displays, there would be no difference. In the real world, there would be small differences. I try to minimize those by using a wide sample of displays.
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post #12 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 02:11 PM
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I wouldn't use that calculator. The results are not correct, for CIEDE2000 anyway.
Do you know of one that works and takes Yxy parameters for ease?
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Do you know of one that works and takes Yxy parameters for ease?
Sure. Use the Bluce Lindbloom site.
Go to this page to convert xyY into Lab. http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index....alculator.html
Then copy/paste the Lab values into this page for results. http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index....renceCalc.html

I also have spreadsheets on my site that allow easy conversion and dE analysis. http://www.chromapure.com/colorscien...lators-new.asp
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post #14 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Usually, yes. The unit-to-unit variation accuracy of the i1d3 is non-trivial. I have had some of them in our lab that are scarily accurate, most are not that good, and a few are not very good at all.
I was under the impression that the unit-to-unit variation was very small, based on your previous review:
http://www.chromapure.com/newgear_display3-new.asp

Quote:
Color Accuracy
This performance parameter can only be finally determined after sampling a large number units. Often, the biggest variable in a meter's color accuracy is the unit-to-unit variation resulting from mass manufacturing with affordable materials. I can say that the production units I have tested are excellent in this regard. The Display 3 shows errors no higher than xy0.006 for both color and white relative to a $10,000 reference spectroradiometer.
Was that no longer the case after you tested more units?
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post #15 of 100 Old 09-27-2017, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I was under the impression that the unit-to-unit variation was very small, based on your previous review:
http://www.chromapure.com/newgear_display3-new.asp
The passage in the review you link to refers to the unit's color accuracy, which is quite good. The issue of unit-to-unit variation can only be known after you have measured many, many units, which I have now. At the time I wrote that review I was not in a position to comment on unit-to-unit variation one way or another. I did point out that I believed that the i1d3 would be more stable over time than the D2 and C5. That prediction has been proven accurate. The i1d3 can go much longer between calibrations than the D2 could have gone.

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post #16 of 100 Old 09-28-2017, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
What kind of real-world inter-device agreement can be expected between high-grade spectros?

Hi,

It's below +-0.001xy if you compare meters of the same brand, about +-0.002xy max if you compare different brands of high-end spectro's.

High-end spectro's have been certified for Emissive (luminance) and some of them for Illuminance (diffuser) mode additionally (which is default option for some models or optional for some others).

When you are measuring a display or a projector screen you are using Emissive mode.

i1PRO1/2 certification is for Reflectance mode (internal lamp light-up the object, in contact mode...to take measurements from paper, tiles etc., certification provided), it can measure Emissive (no certification) and Illuminance (with the serial matched deffuser, no certification). While X-Rite is performing a calibration of those modes to their labs for each meter, they don't say more details about the procedure (or provide any certification).

X-Rite is using a Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer as a reference and an industry standard sample set of 12 BCRA (British Ceramic Research Association) ceramic tiles and a FTS-15a fluorescent tile also as reference materials to certify and guarantee the inter-instrument agreement and short-term repeatability of each certified instrument individually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
When do "Dark readings" occur - is it silently? You are only ever prompted in LS and ArgyllCMS to place it on the calibration tile (which obviously isn't dark in colour). Or do these trigger a dark reading on the calibration tile by not having the lamp on during the reading? Is it important for all ambient light to be removed during those calibration tile reads?
i1PRO1 was performing just a reading of the white ceramic tile during meter initialization (dark reading) while i1PRO2 is performing additionally a self-diagnosis of the position of the optical grating in respect to the sensor during white calibration, eliminating worry about the device measurement accuracy. (Built-in wavelength calibration technology)

i1PRO2 has 128 sensors binned into 41 10nm increments. The mechanical alignment feature will make sure the 41 increments are accurately aligned with the 128 sensors.



i1PRO2 is using a Special Green Filer and LED as reference wavelength internally to correct for small shifts.

(Hi-end spectro's have mechanical shutter to take a dark reading before each measurement, to some models the time it takes for each dark reading has the same time as the last measurement time the meter took to read.)

There a lot of info about X-Rite i1Display PRO & i1PRO2 there: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/x...ions_info.html

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post #17 of 100 Old 09-28-2017, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thank you Tom.
Would you say there's much to be gained by using the i1Pro 2 to profile the i1Display Pro III colorimeter, assuming we're dealing with a display type that is directly supported by the i1Display?
Hi Dominic,

i1Display PRO colorimeter initially designed mainly as the ideal tool for web-designer/photographer and post-production market; while it became very popular to the consumer TV/Projector market also; so the models of the displays used from X-Rite to measure and create each display technology spectral characterization correction (at 1 nm internals using a Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer) was selected from a list of popular displays from these markets.

For example, X-Rite used a Sony PVM-2541 RGB OLED Monitor to create the OLED spectral correction for i1Display PRO which can be useful when you will measure the Sony or FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc.) RGB OLED Broadcasting Monitors and not a consumer LG WRGB OLED or the following brands which are using LG's WRGB OLED panel also: Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Loewe, Philips, Skyworth, Metz, Grundig, Vestel, Arçelik and Bang & Olufsen.

For RG Phosphor they used the Dell Ultrasharp U2413 and AU Optronics B156HW01 Monitors, not a popular Vizio RG Phosphor consumer display.

For LCD-CCFL IPS (EIZO/HP LP2465), for Wide Gamut LCD-CCFL (NEC 241/271/PA271W), for Projection (Marantz/HP/Panasonic), for CCFL-LED IPS (Eizo/HP), for RGB-LED (HP/SOYO) and for White-LED IPS (LG/Samsung SyncMaster/AU Optronics B156HW01).

The only exception was for Plasma where they used a consumer Panasonic Plasma TV.

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For RG Phosphor they used the Dell Ultrasharp U2413 and AU Optronics B156HW01 Monitors, not a popular Vizio RG Phosphor consumer display.
Thanks Ted.
Do you know if any one of the display types are applicable to the NEC MultiSync EA244UHD?
Also, do you know if the ES-2000 is an "open OEM" or "closed OEM" of the i1Pro 2?
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post #19 of 100 Old 09-28-2017, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thanks Ted.
Do you know if any one of the display types are applicable to the NEC MultiSync EA244UHD?
Also, do you know if the ES-2000 is an "open OEM" or "closed OEM" of the i1Pro 2?
Hi Dominic,

I don't know about EA244, I know that i1Display PRO when it's connected with a PC monitor via i1Profiler for example when you have a Wide Gamut LCD-CCFL (which have spectral corrections for NEC 241/271/PA271W)...then it's looking what monitor is connected (from EDID) and it selects automatically the exact spectral correction (if you have any of 241/271/PA271W monitors)

ES-2000 is open branded OEM i1PRO2.

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recently tested my i1Pro 2 against my CR250-RH, results:

RED
dE 1976 Luv: 0.7971 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.1467 | dE 1994: 0.1161 | dE 2000: 0.0890

GREEN
dE 1976 Luv: 1.5207 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.3867 | dE 1994: 0.1896 | dE 2000: 0.1748

BLUE
dE 1976 Luv: 6.3462 | dE 1976 Lab: 2.3314 | dE 1994: 1.0417 | dE 2000: 0.9329

WHITE
dE 1976 Luv: 3.8202 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.6485 | dE 1994: 0.6485 | dE 2000: 0.6417
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post #21 of 100 Old 11-20-2017, 04:20 PM
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recently tested my i1Pro 2 against my CR250-RH, results:

RED
dE 1976 Luv: 0.7971 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.1467 | dE 1994: 0.1161 | dE 2000: 0.0890

GREEN
dE 1976 Luv: 1.5207 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.3867 | dE 1994: 0.1896 | dE 2000: 0.1748

BLUE
dE 1976 Luv: 6.3462 | dE 1976 Lab: 2.3314 | dE 1994: 1.0417 | dE 2000: 0.9329

WHITE
dE 1976 Luv: 3.8202 | dE 1976 Lab: 0.6485 | dE 1994: 0.6485 | dE 2000: 0.6417

Hi Mike,



What display model you used for this comparison?

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Hi Mike,
What display model you used for this comparison?
LCD screen

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I have an older i1pro1 Rev.D (calibrated 2010), a 4 years old i1pro2 Rev.E and a brand new i1 display pro (EODIS3, Retail, Rev. B-02).


I have tested the three instruments on a DELL U2713H GB-LED, wide gamut monitor, using HCFR.

I have used the correct RG_Phosphor spectral data for the EODIS3. The DELL U2713H was hardware calibrated using i1profiler (Dell software DUCS 1.6.5) and the new EODIS3.



All three instruments show very different readings.


What could be the reasons for these differences?


My intention was to use my i1pro2 as a reference for creating spectral data or sensor correction matrix for the EODIS3.
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Warm regards,
bejoro

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post #24 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I have an older i1pro1 Rev.D (calibrated 2010), a 4 years old i1pro2 Rev.E and a brand new i1 display pro (EODIS3, Retail, Rev. B-02).


I have tested the three instruments on a DELL U2713H GB-LED, wide gamut monitor, using HCFR.

I have used the correct RG_Phosphor spectral data for the EODIS3. The DELL U2713H was hardware calibrated using i1profiler and the new EODIS3.



All three instruments show very different readings.


What could be the reasons for these differences?


My intention was to use my i1pro2 as a reference for creating spectral data or sensor correction matrix for the EODIS3.

I had a similar experience with same two meters of similar age.
There isn't any good data out there for the inter unit variability for i1pro/i1pro2 on displays.
One study (by Dry Creek) showed for the old i1pro a mean interunit variation of 4.4dE for standard gamut white and 2.3 for wide gamut white. Mean - ie some meters would be outside of this. And this was with new meters!
https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/...nHardware.html

Tom just looked at as single unit if I recall correctly.

If you do find any good data on the i1pro2 then it would be useful.
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post #25 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 10:50 AM
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Thanks for your answer and the link.


The funny thing is, I did a comparison 4 years ago with the same monitor, the i1pro and my brand new i1pro2. I had the same differences, nothing changed. I thought it is because of the age of the older i1pro1. So the meters are very stable, no significant ageing over the years, but still not very accurate at all.


So the i1pro/2 are more or less a good estimation used with displays than really reliable instruments?

If you're lucky you get a good one but you will never know until you check against a lab grade instrument like Minolta or Jeti.
So great for printer profiling but not for displays.



I planned to calibrate my new LG OLED 65C8 using the new EODIS3 in combination with my i1pro2.

But now I doubt, that a calibration will be very accurate with these instruments.


What could I do to improve accuracy?

Warm regards,
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post #26 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
Thanks for your answer and the link.


The funny thing is, I did a comparison 4 years ago with the same monitor, the i1pro and my brand new i1pro2. I had the same differences, nothing changed. I thought it is because of the age of the older i1pro1. So the meters are very stable, no significant ageing over the years, but still not very accurate at all.


So the i1pro/2 are more or less a good estimation used with displays than really reliable instruments?

If you're lucky you get a good one but you will never know until you check against a lab grade instrument like Minolta or Jeti.
So great for printer profiling but not for displays.



I planned to calibrate my new LG OLED 65C8 using the new EODIS3 in combination with my i1pro2.

But now I doubt, that a calibration will be very accurate with these instruments.


What could I do to improve accuracy?
Actually, what you've done is to show that all 3 meters read differently. As you yourself have pointed out, you cannot say with certainty which one is the most accurate until you've checked with a true reference meter. Until then, you can only pay your money and take your choice...

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post #27 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 01:25 PM
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I planned to calibrate my new LG OLED 65C8 using the new EODIS3 in combination with my i1pro2.

But now I doubt, that a calibration will be very accurate with these instruments.

What could I do to improve accuracy?
The best you can do is to use the i1PRO2 (since it will use its built-in wavelength calibration technology to auto-correct during initialization) and then profile your i1Display PRO.
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post #28 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 01:31 PM
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The best you can do is to use the i1PRO2 (since it will use its built-in wavelength calibration technology to auto-correct during initialization) and then profile your i1Display PRO.
I'd love to see some in-depth comparisons of these meters to see what the spread is like. The feature sounds great but does it deliver results in practice? Who knows, no real evidence out there from what I can see.

To date I've not seen any useful tests of any number of i1pro2 units; are you aware of anything? It is a shame Dry Creek haven't done any more large meter samples.

As you know I had an old i1pro, and now have i1pro2 and Jeti 1201. My old i1pro it seems was closer to the Jeti than the newer i1pro2 is. It is a shame I sold it I think...
One day I'll send the Jeti in for recertification to find out if these results are really true.
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post #29 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 01:35 PM
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I'd love to see some in-depth comparisons of these meters to see what the spread is like. The feature sounds great but does it deliver results in practice? Who knows, no real evidence out there from what I can see.

To date I've not seen any useful tests of any number of i1pro2 units; are you aware of anything? It is a shame Dry Creek haven't done any more large meter samples.
DryCreek was about to perform the same test using many i1PRO2's, but looks like they abandoned it, or never finished it, at least I had that info at past.
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post #30 of 100 Old 11-07-2018, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I have an older i1pro1 Rev.D (calibrated 2010), a 4 years old i1pro2 Rev.E and a brand new i1 display pro (EODIS3, Retail, Rev. B-02).


I have tested the three instruments on a DELL U2713H GB-LED, wide gamut monitor, using HCFR.

I have used the correct RG_Phosphor spectral data for the EODIS3. The DELL U2713H was hardware calibrated using i1profiler (Dell software DUCS 1.6.5) and the new EODIS3.



All three instruments show very different readings.
If my calculator is right then your two i1pro/2 meters are much further apart than anything I've seen. Looks like something like 16dE2000 between them at full white - the most I've seen between my different spectro units is around 4, and even that upsets me. Or course I'm assuming your measurement technique is good and we're not looking at readings with a lot of time between them where drift could be a factor. Better would be to read just WRGB in quick succession from the two meters to compare.

If the differences still hold then either you are real unlucky and they're both at polar extreme opposites to each other, or one could be deemed broken.
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