Calibrating HDR on Epson 5040/6040 projectors - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
Here are my settings.
Settings
Color Mode: Natural
Brightness: 59
Contrast: 43
Color Saturation: 50
Tint: 50
Color Temp: 5500K
Skin Tone: 4
Offset: 48,50,52
Gain: 53,50,57
Gamma: 0,-2,-9,-8,-10,-2,0,32,0
RGBCMY
R: 69,30,96
G: 55,78,0
B: 41,34,64
C: 80,92,15
M: 67,20,100
Y: 32,52,44

I started over a couple more times, and this was as flat as I could get the RGB levels with gamma. The blue seems a little off at 30, but if you adjust the Blue offset down to 51 it throws everything else out of whack.

I also don't know why I have to set it to 5500K to get it calibrated to 6500K, but it seems to work.

Here is a quick shot from my phone or my settings.


Here is the same using Orcus' settings.
Hmm, 55k, that's warm but I know that the menu here is more limited than the 6040. I'll give this a try this weekend when I have time to sit down. Thanks for sharing and doing a comparison with Orcus. Would the rest of the settings be the same as Orcus? So I can just load those and adjust it to yours?

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post #1112 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkaquinas View Post
Hmm, 55k, that's warm but I know that the menu here is more limited than the 6040. I'll give this a try this weekend when I have time to sit down. Thanks for sharing and doing a comparison with Orcus. Would the rest of the settings be the same as Orcus? So I can just load those and adjust it to yours?
5500K is just the setting on the projector, but actually measures a little above 6500K. I didn't post the graph of the color temp, but it tracks close to 6500K.

There are a couple differences from Orcus
Superwhite Off
Power Medium

I'll update my post with the full list of settings.

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post #1113 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
5500K is just the setting on the projector, but actually measures a little above 6500K. I didn't post the graph of the color temp, but it tracks close to 6500K.

There are a couple differences from Orcus
Superwhite Off
Power Medium

I'll update my post with the full list of settings.

So you have got me interested in having a go at calibrating my own CMS. Up to now I have just been using others settings with just tweaking the two point grayscale.


What is your workflow?
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post #1114 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So you have got me interested in having a go at calibrating my own CMS. Up to now I have just been using others settings with just tweaking the two point grayscale.


What is your workflow?
This is my first time calibrating, so I am learning as I go. My numbers seem odd compared to some of the other settings, so I still trying to figure out if I should "trust the meter." The two settings that I had used the most were Orcus and Jbartelli. If I switch between mine, Orcus, and jbartelli, they look a little red, a little green, or a little blue, respectively. They measure that way on my meter. I am also using a Dark Energy Abyss ALR screen, with a .9 gain.

I am using the i1 Display Pro meter, and mainly follow viperlogics workflow in post 344 with a couple of changes.

I started with the grayscale sweep and color temp at 6500k, for me it had green at 100%, blue at 120%, and red at 80%.
I kept reducing the color temp until they were all close to 100%, which ended up being 5500K.
Once that is set, in HCFR, right click in the RGB levels window to see the results w/gamma. This will skew the line all over the place.
Then I adjusted Brightness and Contrast to straighten the line as much as possible, then used the gamma to fine tune.
Only after I got the line at flat as possible did I start adjusting colors.
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post #1115 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
Then I adjusted Brightness and Contrast to straighten the line as much as possible, then used the gamma to fine tune.
Only after I got the line at flat as possible did I start adjusting colors.
Presumably you mean RGB Gain and Offset. In any case, they should not be adjusted using the “w/gamma” option.

The objectives of those adjustments are to balance R/G/B. The gamma is adjusted using the 10/20-point controls.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-13-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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post #1116 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Presumably you mean RGB Gain and Offset. In any case, they should not be adjusted using the “w/gamma” option.

The objectives of those adjustments are to balance R/G/B. The gamma is adjusted using the 10/20-point controls.
I didn't use the RGB Gain and Offset to adjust gamma. I just adjusted the gamma before adjusting the colors compared to viperlogic's tutorial which adjusted the colors before gamma. I just found that changes in gamma affected the colors more that changes in color affected gamma.

I think I did adjust the offset and gain w/gamma option enabled. What issues does that cause?

Looking at the charts I don't think it would have changed my settings. I attached both with and without gamma. Still a mess below 40, but tracks great above. I also threw in my color temp chart. It tracks right at 6500K.
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Last edited by siuengr; 02-13-2019 at 10:53 AM. Reason: typo
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post #1117 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
I didn't use the RGB Gain and Offset to adjust gamma. I just adjusted the gamma before adjusting the colors compared to viperlogic's tutorial which adjusted the colors before gamma. I just found that changes in gamma affected the colors more that changes in color affected gamma.
My comment was directed at your statement

Quote:
Once that is set, in HCFR, right click in the RGB levels window to see the results w/gamma. This will skew the line all over the place.
Then I adjusted Brightness and Contrast to straighten the line as much as possible,
Brightness control is used to set the black level. I do not know what you mean by using it to “straighen the line” when looking at the RGB graph with gamma.
Quote:
I think I did adjust the offset and gain w/gamma option enabled. What issues does that cause?
Offset and gain should be adjusted using only two of the three colours. When using “without gamma”, the adjustment will make all three colours read 100%, which simply means all three colours are equal. If you use the “w/gamma” option, in all likelihood you will have to change all three colours to make them all read 100%, which would result in some undesirable side effects.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-13-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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post #1118 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Brightness control is used to set the black level. I do not know what you mean by using it to “straighten the line” when looking at the RGB graph with gamma.
I was just basing it off your original comment that said I needed to look at it w/gamma, and I would have seen my target luminescence was off. I didn't realize it would throw it off the color changing it with gamma.

By straightening the line on the RGB Levels, I mean that if you you match the luminance curve then the RGB line will be straight with or without gamma on. I was using the grayscale, watching the numbers, and the green line on the rgb levels while adjusting the gamma controls to get the green line at 100%.

If the luminance curve match the target curve 100% would the RGB Levels with and without gamma be the same?

Here is an example of what I mean. All the the other settings and built in setting have huge luminance errors that cause the same wave in the RGB Levels chart w/gamma.

These setting look pretty good and flat without gamma.


But if you look with gamma, you get a nice wave.


Looking at the luminance chart, you can see it is way off.
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post #1119 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
I was just basing it off your original comment that said I needed to look at it w/gamma, and I would have seen my target luminescence was off. I didn't realize it would throw it off the color changing it with gamma.
Which post are you referring to? I need to revisit it and see if the wording was misleading, as what you're doing is not what I was suggesting.

Quote:
By straightening the line on the RGB Levels, I mean that if you you match the luminance curve then the RGB line will be straight with or without gamma on. I was using the grayscale, watching the numbers, and the green line on the rgb levels while adjusting the gamma controls to get the green line at 100%.
That is correct assuming you're adjusting the 10-point (gamma controls), but not for adjusting the gains and offsets (or Brightness, maybe Contrast).

Quote:
If the luminance curve match the target curve 100% would the RGB Levels with and without gamma be the same?
Yes. "RGB w/gamma" provides the same information presented in the "RGB w/o gamma" as well as the gamma curve (or luminance difference)

Here is an example of what I mean. All the the other settings and built in setting have huge luminance errors that cause the same wave in the RGB Levels chart w/gamma.

Quote:
These setting look pretty good and flat without gamma.
But if you look with gamma, you get a nice wave.
Looking at the luminance chart, you can see it is way off.
Yes, that's why you need to look at "RGB w/gamma" when adjusting gamma, but not when you're adjusting gain and offset.
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post #1120 of 1125 Old 02-13-2019, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Which post are you referring to? I need to revisit it and see if the wording was misleading, as what you're doing is not what I was suggesting.
Here is what I was referring to. I took it to say I should be adjusting w/gamma so I could take the luminance errors into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The luminance is well below the target - 5% is the same as black (0.016 nits), 10% is at 0.027 nits compared with the target of 0.084 nits, etc.
You will see the luminance errors very clearly if you set the RGB graph option to “w/gamma” by right-clicking on it.
Since your black level is quite high, you should changed the reference black level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That is correct assuming you're adjusting the 10-point (gamma controls), but not for adjusting the gains and offsets (or Brightness, maybe Contrast).


Yes. "RGB w/gamma" provides the same information presented in the "RGB w/o gamma" as well as the gamma curve (or luminance difference)

Here is an example of what I mean. All the the other settings and built in setting have huge luminance errors that cause the same wave in the RGB Levels chart w/gamma.


Yes, that's why you need to look at "RGB w/gamma" when adjusting gamma, but not when you're adjusting gain and offset.
I think we agree, I just wasn't stating it clearly. I am only using the gamma controls to adjust the luminance curve. I didn't realize there would be an issue adjusting the Gain and Offset w/gamma.

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post #1121 of 1125 Old 02-15-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by monkaquinas View Post
Hmm, 55k, that's warm but I know that the menu here is more limited than the 6040. I'll give this a try this weekend when I have time to sit down. Thanks for sharing and doing a comparison with Orcus. Would the rest of the settings be the same as Orcus? So I can just load those and adjust it to yours?
So I went back to check some settings last night because my settings seem very warm. I measured Natural default setting at 6500K, 6000K, and 5500K. I can post the graphs later, but 6500K was very cool with blue way above the green line, and red below. 6000K was better, but I still couldn't bring the red up to 100%. I also tested viperlogic's settings, since he posted his calibration files as well. His calibration file show everything calibrated correctly, but when I took the measurements, I got blue around 120% over green.

That means that either my screen runs cool, the patterns aren't working right with chormecast through the shield, or the meter is wrong. I tried some video calibration files played through my Oppo, and go the same results, so I don't think it is the generator. I also had some Elite gray screen material samples laying around. I tried those, and while they were better, they still present a little on the cool side. I don't really know how to test the meter. I can try it on another display, but I don't have anything else calibrated, so I don't know if that will help me out.

I did an SDR calibration, which I calibrated at 6000K. Again, everything on the calibration file looks great, but when I watch something skin tones look a little red. Sometime they look ok, but sometimes it looks like too much.

My Theater Build: The Underground Apolkalypse Theater
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Epson 5040ub, Oppo UHD-203 Player, Xbox One, nVidia Shield
Atmos 7.3.4 - Polk 2x RTiA9, CSiA6, 2x FXiA6, 2x RTIA3, 4x 70-RT
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post #1122 of 1125 Old 02-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siuengr View Post
So I went back to check some settings last night because my settings seem very warm. I measured Natural default setting at 6500K, 6000K, and 5500K. I can post the graphs later, but 6500K was very cool with blue way above the green line, and red below. 6000K was better, but I still couldn't bring the red up to 100%. I also tested viperlogic's settings, since he posted his calibration files as well. His calibration file show everything calibrated correctly, but when I took the measurements, I got blue around 120% over green.

That means that either my screen runs cool, the patterns aren't working right with chormecast through the shield, or the meter is wrong. I tried some video calibration files played through my Oppo, and go the same results, so I don't think it is the generator. I also had some Elite gray screen material samples laying around. I tried those, and while they were better, they still present a little on the cool side. I don't really know how to test the meter. I can try it on another display, but I don't have anything else calibrated, so I don't know if that will help me out.

I did an SDR calibration, which I calibrated at 6000K. Again, everything on the calibration file looks great, but when I watch something skin tones look a little red. Sometime they look ok, but sometimes it looks like too much.
I'm seeing something similar using the Harpervision settings. I was watching Passengers and it had a great dynamic look. When it got to Jim, he would look fine for most scenes and then in other scenes, like the bar, he would look like he had a sunburn. I tried dialing back Color Sat and Skin Color and it helped to tame it but it was still present. I hope to give yours a try this weekend and see what it looks like on my 1.0 CineGray.

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post #1123 of 1125 Old 02-16-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by monkaquinas View Post
I'm seeing something similar using the Harpervision settings. I was watching Passengers and it had a great dynamic look. When it got to Jim, he would look fine for most scenes and then in other scenes, like the bar, he would look like he had a sunburn. I tried dialing back Color Sat and Skin Color and it helped to tame it but it was still present. I hope to give yours a try this weekend and see what it looks like on my 1.0 CineGray.
I used my meter on my OLED TV today to see if the same blue shift was present. It wasn't, so now I am pretty confident that it is just that my screen runs very cool. I did have a sample of the CineGray screen, and ran a grayscale sweep on it. It was the most neutral of all the samples I checked, but still had a little blue push. If you try out my settings, you will probably want to change the color temp to 6000K or 6500K so the red isn't too saturated.

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post #1124 of 1125 Old 07-31-2019, 06:28 AM
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Question Newb tripping over his own feet

A few questions from a newb stumbling through this:

When the guide says this:

Quote:
Dial in using 30% and 80% points using continuous measure (HCFR: F8) and adjusting Red and Blue offset for 30% and Red and Blue gain for 80% so as to get a dE of 2 or lower, though lower than 1 should be easily achievable.
Does this mean that after I do the 21 point sweep, that I press the 30% column in the top half of the software and then start doing a continuous sweep? Do I look at the deltas and adjust the red and blue offsets to get it as close to zero as possible? Then select the 80% column which changes the auto generated pattern to the 80% greyscale and then adjust the red and blue gains to get that delta as close to zero as possible?

Next question pertains to the settings right before adjusting the gamma curve

Quote:
Set “Target MaxL” to your 100% measure from the grayscale run.
What does this actually mean? What was my "100% measure" from the grayscale run?

I am struggling on what to set the Target MaxL at?

I set my diffuse white[nits] to 25 and set the MaxL to 150 (just used someone else's numbers). I set the Master MaxL to 4000 and was successful with my gamma curve, but I would like to know what to appropriately set the Target MaxL to?

Is this the brightest my Projector will get?

Also how do I determine what my firmware is at? I found the entries in the Information area of the menu, but the top set of numbers end with 111 but the bottom set of numbers end with 112.

Thanks for any help,

~Q
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post #1125 of 1125 Old 07-31-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by quazl View Post
Does this mean that after I do the 21 point sweep, that I press the 30% column in the top half of the software and then start doing a continuous sweep? Do I look at the deltas and adjust the red and blue offsets to get it as close to zero as possible? Then select the 80% column which changes the auto generated pattern to the 80% greyscale and then adjust the red and blue gains to get that delta as close to zero as possible?
You can try to minimize the dE, but for this adjustment it's easier to try to get R/G/B all closest to 100% (as shown in the lower left window).

Quote:
What does this actually mean? What was my "100% measure" from the grayscale run?
100% measure is simply the measured luminance at 100% input, i.e., white.

Quote:
I am struggling on what to set the Target MaxL at?
I set my diffuse white[nits] to 25 and set the MaxL to 150 (just used someone else's numbers).
Which MaxL? There are four of them.

Quote:
I set the Master MaxL to 4000 and was successful with my gamma curve, but I would like to know what to appropriately set the Target MaxL to?
That's the easiest one to set. It should be auto-populated; if not, set it to the measured 100% white luminance.

Quote:
Is this the brightest my Projector will get?
This is the brightest your highlights can be. However, the overall brightness is determined by the diffuse white setting.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-31-2019 at 01:31 PM.
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