2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 107 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3181 of 3237 Old 08-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
Don't worry, there are still things you can do only with Calman


I have also done some test with my Muriddeo PG and I confirm it works with all refresh rates. Among Expert control, only White balancing and Gamma were there and in Truemotioin you could play only with BFI.
@chros73 , there are some difference between your testing and mine: I have a E8 and I have not used PC with MADVR, but my Murideo Six-g with the classic ISFMultiburst1080P pattern to test.

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post #3182 of 3237 Old 08-11-2019, 03:33 AM
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Steve as someone who professional calibrates and uses CalMAN, for now, I wanted to share my experiences. I agree 100% on the HDR LUT which is why they only recommend using the Matirx calculation. From my experience, even the Matrix can sometimes correct a set that's out of spec or at least make it a little better. A lot of work needs to be done here.

As for the gray scale, for HDR you can just do a 2pt calibration and get pretty good results but the 20pt will be better and you get pretty good results with Autocal if you have it set up properly. Can you do better manually? Yes of course but the time involved might not be worth it. Especially for Dolby Vision. I used to calibrate that 20pt gray scale manually and it was torture. Now Autocal can do it relatively quickly, accurately and consistently, again if you have it set up properly.

All that said, I agree, I see Autocal find an optimal setting for a given read then every once in a while it selects and finalizes on a setting that's worse. I have no idea what it's doing and sometimes you just need to re-run it in order to get a better result. As a former programmer I don't believe it's that difficult these days to write an Autocal program that has more intelligence. My guess is they have adopted some old software to work with the newer sets.

For an Enthusiast or someone who has a lot of time to calibrate all these picture modes manually you can get slightly better results but if you are in someone's home, have a fixed amount of time and cost, at least for the LG where the customer usually wants and requires all these PM's calibrated, Autocal with a manual tweak can be a useful tool.

Just sharing my experience on the topic since I mostly calibrate these LGs.
Yes, you need LightSpace with DeviceControl to be able to see the alternative approach.
No guesstimation for any of the LUT generation - 1D or 3D.
And the 1D LUT is done in seconds (maybe a minute or two, depending on the probe speed/accuracy, and the number of points used... it's nice to have such options.)

As you are not presently as LightSpace user, it is very difficult for you to really understand the differences.
I know other posting here about their LightSpace results are Calman users too, so they have a good level of knowledge across both systems.

But, regardless, users have to understand the underlying issues with WOLEDs.

Steve
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post #3183 of 3237 Old 08-11-2019, 02:23 PM
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Because of the RGBW nature of these displays an Iterative 1D LUT calibration (Autocal) will almost always provide better grayscale results than a purely measured and calculated 1D LUT.

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post #3184 of 3237 Old 08-11-2019, 09:46 PM
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I'm not a color scientist or even a professional calibrator (or even a TV reviewer! lol), but I'm very curious and passionate about the subject. So what I will say may not be the absolute truth. I understand that both the iterative method of CalMAN and the faster and more modern method of LightSpace are based on a RGB tristimulus system, while the current OLED display LG is a WRGB which, in most cases, continues to be a tristimulus system but with the use of an unfiltered white subpixel instead of one of the classic primaries for reasons of efficiency and consumption. Both software know where they need to go, but CM is like a driver without a navigator or a map, he will try all the roads before he gets to his destination.
The fact remains that, as the internal video pipeline is composed (3DLUT before 1DLUT), it is perhaps better to leave a unity LUT in the 1D slot or measure/create/upload 3DLUT directly from native gamut, subtract grayscale readings from 3DLUT and then measure/create/upload 1DLUT. Can you do that with CM?
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post #3185 of 3237 Old 08-12-2019, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
there are some difference between your testing and mine: I have a E8 and I have not used PC with MADVR, but my Murideo Six-g with the classic ISFMultiburst1080P pattern to test.
And I don't have your equipment If you connect a PC/laptop and display the mentioned image, you'll see what we mean.

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post #3186 of 3237 Old 08-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I'm not a color scientist or even a professional calibrator (or even a TV reviewer! lol), but I'm very curious and passionate about the subject. So what I will say may not be the absolute truth. I understand that both the iterative method of CalMAN and the faster and more modern method of LightSpace are based on a RGB tristimulus system, while the current OLED display LG is a WRGB which, in most cases, continues to be a tristimulus system but with the use of an unfiltered white subpixel instead of one of the classic primaries for reasons of efficiency and consumption. Both software know where they need to go, but CM is like a driver without a navigator or a map, he will try all the roads before he gets to his destination.
Interesting analogy there!

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The fact remains that, as the internal video pipeline is composed (3DLUT before 1DLUT),
Is that really a fact? I didn't know that LG had published the internal video pipeline publically.

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it is perhaps better to leave a unity LUT in the 1D slot or measure/create/upload 3DLUT directly from native gamut, subtract grayscale readings from 3DLUT and then measure/create/upload 1DLUT. Can you do that with CM?
Nope

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post #3187 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 02:05 AM
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Hi Tick, you can have a look at a simplified representation of LG 2018 video pipeline HERE

HERE, you can see the complete representation by @ConnecTEDDD

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post #3188 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 02:05 AM
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Okay, since CalMan LG Home does not work without an expensive patterngenerator and since I don't want to manually insert strings into the HDFury stream a quick question.


For my BluRay-Player (Sony X700) I have to activate the Dolby Vision Mode manually. Could I use Ted's Disk to set Brightness and Contrast and perform a 2 point calibration when I set the player to DV-Mode? I own an EODIS3 Meter and an older CalMan Enthusiast Version.


I tested this and the TV-Set does show "Dolby Vision" in the top right corner. I am pretty sure that "special" Dolby Vision patterns are required but not 100%.
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post #3189 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JustAGoodPicture View Post
Okay, since CalMan LG Home does not work without an expensive patterngenerator and since I don't want to manually insert strings into the HDFury stream a quick question.


For my BluRay-Player (Sony X700) I have to activate the Dolby Vision Mode manually. Could I use Ted's Disk to set Brightness and Contrast and perform a 2 point calibration when I set the player to DV-Mode? I own an EODIS3 Meter and an older CalMan Enthusiast Version.


I tested this and the TV-Set does show "Dolby Vision" in the top right corner. I am pretty sure that "special" Dolby Vision patterns are required but not 100%.
I did this using ATV 4K with forced DV ON and Masciola HDR patterns then ATV 4K with Masciola DV patterns, both inside Infuse (it does supports DV profile 1 playback now). The results for 2 WP were the same. But you can't do nothing more than that.

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post #3190 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 02:48 AM
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All calibration software work better with accurate YCbCr TPGs, that doesn't mean you can't use an accurate RGB TPG. By the way, DVDO AvLab TPG is now cheap and it's YCbCr accurate.

White/Grayscale has the same coordinates in Rec.709 and Rec.2020. So if you are able to put the TV in DV mode through your BDP I see no problem in using Ted's grayscale patterns. But I might miss something.

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post #3191 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 04:07 AM
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Thanks guys!


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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
I did this using ATV 4K with forced DV ON and Masciola HDR patterns then ATV 4K with Masciola DV patterns, both inside Infuse (it does supports DV profile 1 playback now). The results for 2 WP were the same. But you can't do nothing more than that.
Do you mean Masciola SDR? If not then I fail to see the significance. Sorry, total noob here.


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White/Grayscale has the same coordinates in Rec.709 and Rec.2020. So if you are able to put the TV in DV mode through your BDP I see no problem in using Ted's grayscale patterns. But I might miss something.

So setting brightness, contrast and doing a 2p grayscale calibration should work? That sounds great!


I gotta ask though: why wouldn't a 21p calibration work?
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post #3192 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 05:51 AM
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Any grayscale patch will work.

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post #3193 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 06:05 AM
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Thanks guys!

I gotta ask though: why wouldn't a 21p calibration work?
The problem with multipoint HDR grayscale calibration is that displays - especially LG, but others too - are expecting particular adjustment points. And these aren't the usual 0, 5, 10, 15, spacing, either. LG has changed their list of adjustment points needed for HDR multipoint grayscale calibration from year to year, driving disc and pattern producers like Ryan Masciola nuts. Plus, if the contrast and brightness aren't at their defaults, then the numbers you put in won't match the adjustment points anymore. That's why you should stick with 2-point.

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post #3194 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 06:09 AM
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But if use LightSpace... lol Just kidding...

I wouldn't touch Contrast/Brightness with modern TV anyway.

Contact Ted directly. He will surely help you out better than me.
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post #3195 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem with multipoint HDR grayscale calibration is that displays - especially LG, but others too - are expecting particular adjustment points. And these aren't the usual 0, 5, 10, 15, spacing, either. LG has changed their list of adjustment points needed for HDR multipoint grayscale calibration from year to year, driving disc and pattern producers like Ryan Masciola nuts. Plus, if the contrast and brightness aren't at their defaults, then the numbers you put in won't match the adjustment points anymore. That's why you should stick with 2-point.
Also when you try to calibrate HDR and or DV, the set's tone mapping is turned On making it very difficult to calibrate. If you use CalMAN autocal, they have a process which lets you calibrate with tone mapping turned off. On the 2019 LG's you can even measure the peak luminance of your specific panel and re-create the 1,000, 4,000 and 10,000 nit tone maps or generate your own map and load them to the set.

So you really have two choices right now. As Ted recommended a while back you can just do a 2 pt HDR and set the White point for DV, you can use LS or any software to do this or if you have CalMAN autocal, use their process. In the future, we will see if there are any new processes to accomplish this.

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post #3196 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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On this HDR/DV calibration topic, although LG gives you the best and most flexibility for calibrating, I often wonder why they don't also provide the calibration process the Sony uses where once the SDR calibration is done, the HDR and DV offsets are calculated and after validation, you are done. Maybe as an option? I agree looking at Sony LUTs vs LG LUTs, Ted showed us this a while back, the LG LUTs look superior in many ways BUT at the end of the day, when the sets are calibrated as best they can be, when you put them side by side, they look almost identical as we saw at the last VE TV Shootout where we had professionals evaluating and judging both sets.

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post #3197 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 07:49 AM
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I agree with you John, if LG added the "automatic" conversion SDR to HDR-DV, it would be the icing on the cake.
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post #3198 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
On this HDR/DV calibration topic, although LG gives you the best and most flexibility for calibrating, I often wonder why they don't also provide the calibration process the Sony uses where once the SDR calibration is done, the HDR and DV offsets are calculated and after validation, you are done. Maybe as an option? I agree looking at Sony LUTs vs LG LUTs, Ted showed us this a while back, the LG LUTs look superior in many ways BUT at the end of the day, when the sets are calibrated as best they can be, when you put them side by side, they look almost identical as we saw at the last VE TV Shootout where we had professionals evaluating and judging both sets.
This is what I told you on Saturday Someone needs to get them engineers who know how to do math conversion matrixes.\
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post #3199 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Hi Tick, you can have a look at a simplified representation of LG 2018 video pipeline HERE

HERE, you can see the complete representation by @ConnecTEDDD
Yes, I have seen both of those before and I'm very familiar with them. I was asking whether LG has published the information. If they haven't we don't know that it's a fact.

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All calibration software work better with accurate YCbCr TPGs, that doesn't mean you can't use an accurate RGB TPG.
Indeed. Otherwise those of us who use the excellent Raspberry Pi would be screwed. Sure that YCbCr is slightly better, but accurate RGB is still very very good.

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By the way, DVDO AvLab TPG is now cheap and it's YCbCr accurate.
"cheapER". It might even be "the cheapest one" or "cheap, considering how much the others cost". But no, it's definitely not "cheap"!!!

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
The problem with multipoint HDR grayscale calibration is that displays - especially LG, but others too - are expecting particular adjustment points. And these aren't the usual 0, 5, 10, 15, spacing, either. LG has changed their list of adjustment points needed for HDR multipoint grayscale calibration from year to year, driving disc and pattern producers like Ryan Masciola nuts. Plus, if the contrast and brightness aren't at their defaults, then the numbers you put in won't match the adjustment points anymore. That's why you should stick with 2-point.
I did HDR 21 pt on my C8 using the i1 pro, a laptop with HCFR and Masciola USB downloaded patterns specifically for LG 2018 C8 (code value set 2). For example, point #10 calls for FR=555 which is equivalent to R=G=B=135 (8-bit). I adjust the TV control at pt#10 to match R=G=B=135. The 100% Y was 700.6 cd/mm2, and the corresponding Y target at pt #10 is 172.2 cd/m2 measured by my i1 pro. Another example is at pt#1, FR=272, R=G=B=74, Y=5.6 cd/m2. I did this on all 21 points. I did the 2 pt first, then fine tune with 21 pts. Doing this way, not only do I bring R=G=B but also set the Y value correctly at each point. Dynamic tone mapping was turned off and black level set to low. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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post #3201 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I did HDR 21 pt on my C8 using the i1 pro, a laptop and Masciola USB downloaded patterns specifically for LG 2018 C8 (code value set 2). For example, point #10 calls for FR=555 which is equivalent to R=G=B=135 (8-bit). I adjust the TV control at pt#10 to match R=G=B=135. The 100% Y was 700.6 cd/mm2, and the corresponding Y target at pt #10 is 172.2 cd/m2 measured by my i1 pro. Another example is at pt#1, FR=272, R=G=B=74, Y=5.6 cd/m2. I did this on all 21 points. I did the 2 pt first, then fine tune with 21 pts. Doing this way, not only do I bring R=G=B but also set the Y value correctly at each point. Tone mapping was turned off and black level set to low. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just one question - how did you turn tone mapping off? There's no user option to do this. [NB: Not "dynamic tone mapping"]

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post #3202 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 03:25 PM
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Just one question - how did you turn tone mapping off? There's no user option to do this. [NB: Not "dynamic tone mapping"]
I set Dynamic tone mapping and Dynamic Contrast to off.
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post #3203 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 03:30 PM
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I set Dynamic tone mapping and Dynamic Contrast to off.
Right, that's why I said NB: not "Dynamic tone mapping".

Tone mapping was still active.

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post #3204 of 3237 Old 08-13-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I did HDR 21 pt on my C8 using the i1 pro, a laptop with HCFR and Masciola USB downloaded patterns specifically for LG 2018 C8 (code value set 2). For example, point #10 calls for FR=555 which is equivalent to R=G=B=135 (8-bit). I adjust the TV control at pt#10 to match R=G=B=135. The 100% Y was 700.6 cd/mm2, and the corresponding Y target at pt #10 is 172.2 cd/m2 measured by my i1 pro. Another example is at pt#1, FR=272, R=G=B=74, Y=5.6 cd/m2. I did this on all 21 points. I did the 2 pt first, then fine tune with 21 pts. Doing this way, not only do I bring R=G=B but also set the Y value correctly at each point. Dynamic tone mapping was turned off and black level set to low. Please correct me if I am wrong.
My original point was that the changes have been myriad and tough for content and calibration software providers to stay up with. LG also has posted incorrect information in the past. Ryan Masciola has been heroic in making the needed changes to his patterns quickly. If you have the correct patterns, multipoint grayscale is doable. If not...

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post #3205 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 01:21 AM
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With ColourSpace we have added the ability for any User Defined patch sequence to be used for manual measurement, including grey scales.
So any TV's specific pattern requirements can be matched.



This can be run as an AutoProfile, for verification, or Auto Advance/Manual Advance for adjustment.
With a graphics card that can output HDR metadata, or with something like a HDFury, that should allow for HDR use too.

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post #3206 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I did HDR 21 pt on my C8 using the i1 pro, a laptop with HCFR and Masciola USB downloaded patterns specifically for LG 2018 C8 (code value set 2). For example, point #10 calls for FR=555 which is equivalent to R=G=B=135 (8-bit). I adjust the TV control at pt#10 to match R=G=B=135. The 100% Y was 700.6 cd/mm2, and the corresponding Y target at pt #10 is 172.2 cd/m2 measured by my i1 pro. Another example is at pt#1, FR=272, R=G=B=74, Y=5.6 cd/m2. I did this on all 21 points. I did the 2 pt first, then fine tune with 21 pts. Doing this way, not only do I bring R=G=B but also set the Y value correctly at each point. Dynamic tone mapping was turned off and black level set to low. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Can you post your scans so we can see how it tracks? One of the reasons to just do the 2 pt HDR on the LG if you are not using CalMAN autocal and calibrating with tone mapping turned off in the set is you can introduce banding and artifacts if you adjust the lower IREs, sometimes even slightly. Your readings will look perfect but you will see it in content. The 2pt gets you 90%ish there and the extra work to do the 20pt manually may not be worth the trouble. Just another point of view.

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post #3207 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 06:25 AM
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OK, guys, can somebody sum up how to manually calibrate a B8 in PC mode for HDR10 only?
Since I can't use DisplayCal to generate a 3dlut for that. (I have a meter, HCFR + madvr pattern generator.)
Thanks!

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post #3208 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Can you post your scans so we can see how it tracks? One of the reasons to just do the 2 pt HDR on the LG if you are not using CalMAN autocal and calibrating with tone mapping turned off in the set is you can introduce banding and artifacts if you adjust the lower IREs, sometimes even slightly. Your readings will look perfect but you will see it in content. The 2pt gets you 90%ish there and the extra work to do the 20pt manually may not be worth the trouble. Just another point of view.
Keep in mind that the measured Y's track the 20 LG C8 white balance measurement points, not the HCFR reference points. Also attached CMS calibrated color ramp (Cinema BT1886) vs non-calibrated (technicolor) which has a gamma of 2.2. Visually I cannot see clear differences other than the latter is slightly brighter and bluish grey. I did reduce blue in the calibration. Also some apparent bandings in the grey ramp is due to reflection of my windows. Looking closely and directly at the screen I don't see them. Dynamic tone mapping is ON in the color ramp pictures. Perhaps trained eyes can point out the difference.
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post #3209 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at these Dolby Vision Cinema Pre and Post calibration scans you can see why you can see improvement after DV calibration vs OOTB. Note how the Pre doesn't follow the EOTF curve as precisely which will make the picture look artificially brighter. In this calibration the DV Config file was re-created and re-loaded to the set.
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post #3210 of 3237 Old 08-14-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Looking at these Dolby Vision Cinema Pre and Post calibration scans you can see why you can see improvement after DV calibration vs OOTB. Note how the Pre doesn't follow the EOTF curve as precisely which will make the picture look artificially brighter. In this calibration the DV Config file was re-created and re-loaded to the set.
This is my Dolby Vision calibration using Ryan's patterns. I did not adjust RGB to match the Y targets like I did with the HDR, but only adjust to bring R=B=G at each point. As you can see from <75% the measured Y's are higher than the HCFR targets. I think the Y targets in the HCFR table are accurate since the corresponding RGB values match Ryan's patterns. Is that a correct assumption on the LG C8 Dolby Vision WB adjustment points? I will try to do that in my calibration.
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