2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 114 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3391 of 3665 Old 09-14-2019, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
AVI infoframe: 00:E8:64:5D:00

But, I don't like that AVI infoframe. ["5D" = 2160p24 which is a lie for my video card. So I used "10": 1080p60]

AVI infoframe: 00:E8:64:10:00

I then pasted these manually into the Integral GUI app and saw the TV switch into HDR10 mode.

I was doing experiments last night with the Raspberry Pi's output vs my laptop's output.
Correct, as CalMAN don't have selection for AVTOP Controller to be able to select what resolution/framerate you will use, it will always generate AVI for 2160p24. So when you will use 1080p60 with AVI for 2160p24, some TV's can detect that (so they will not enable HDR10), some others they ignore that detail (and they will enable HDR10).

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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Right. If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the Dolby Vision pattern source window in Calman can be used as a way to test if the laptop is bit accurate? Instead of all my pain of comparing readings - it's a proper full test of bit accuracy?
Correct, if you will able to get DV to work, this means your settings/VGA can output bit-perfect 1080p60 full range, so later when you will select from CM to use video levels, as this is only offset, means that it will be accurate for RGB-Video triplet patch generations (with your VGA output as RGB-Full).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
So, I think the answer I have now is that my laptop isn't bit accurate, and/or that method simply doesn't work.
HD Fury has to controlled from inside CalMAN, so CalMAN to send the Dolby Vision VSIF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Back to my problem of only getting 400 nits - I turned on TPC in the service menu, all the processing was turned off (Logo luminance adustment, dynamic tone mapping, dynamic contrast etc). Is there anything else that might be causing it?
Does you TV go to HDR10 mode and you see available HDR picture modes etc..?

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post #3392 of 3665 Old 09-14-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Correct, as CalMAN don't have selection for AVTOP Controller to be able to select what resolution/framerate you will use, it will always generate AVI for 2160p24. So when you will use 1080p60 with AVI for 2160p24, some TV's can detect that (so they will not enable HDR10), some others they ignore that detail (and they will enable HDR10).
Understood. It seems the LG C8 is fine here - I get the "HDR" popup "toast".

Quote:
Correct, if you will able to get DV to work, this means your settings/VGA can output bit-perfect 1080p60 full range, so later when you will select from CM to use video levels, as this is only offset, means that it will be accurate for RGB-Video triplet patch generations (with your VGA output as RGB-Full).
Thanks. This is key!

Quote:
HD Fury has to controlled from inside CalMAN, so CalMAN to send the Dolby Vision VSIF.
Right. Ok well I replaced the SiUSBXp.dll in Calman with the version 3.9.0.2 to restore control functionality, in case, but it still didn't work. Oh well. Now I have my answer.

Quote:
Does you TV go to HDR10 mode and you see available HDR picture modes etc..?
Yes. I get the toast, and the picture modes change to the HDR10 ones (middle menu):



I've done a cold boot of the TV. Factory reset next I think, or is there anything else I may try?

[EDIT: Just noticed in the service menu that OLED / "HDR Module" was set to "off". I've changed it to "normal" and will re-measure but that's my prime suspect. I remember experimenting but don't remember deliberately leaving it off. How embarrassing. Posting here to share the knowledge in case it helps someone in the future, not the shame

[EDIT2: Yes, that was it. Phew. Back up to 726 nits peak. Thanks Tedd for nudging me!]

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post #3393 of 3665 Old 09-14-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Correct, if you will able to get DV to work, this means your settings/VGA can output bit-perfect 1080p60 full range, so later when you will select from CM to use video levels, as this is only offset, means that it will be accurate for RGB-Video triplet patch generations (with your VGA output as RGB-Full).
I guess the same applies to the situation when PC video games output their DV signal in 8-bit Full RGB. That works on all consumer grade nVidia VGA cards which support DV through NVAPI.
There are some broken driver versions which can't pass the correct metadata. You get a blank screen with DV or potentially undesirable roll-off with HDR10. But the current drivers are fine.
So, I guess a PC can be treated as a perfect pattern generator if you can run video games in DV mode (or the OS is the culprit since DV uses NVAPI which somewhat bypasses the Windows display manager... but madVR/madTPG can use NVAPI for HDR as well).
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post #3394 of 3665 Old 09-14-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I guess the same applies to the situation when PC video games output their DV signal in 8-bit Full RGB. That works on all consumer grade nVidia VGA cards which support DV through NVAPI.
There are some broken driver versions which can't pass the correct metadata. You get a blank screen with DV or potentially undesirable roll-off with HDR10. But the current drivers are fine.
So, I guess a PC can be treated as a perfect pattern generator if you can run video games in DV mode (or the OS is the culprit since DV uses NVAPI which somewhat bypasses the Windows display manager... but madVR/madTPG can use NVAPI for HDR as well).
I don't like the 'guessing if it work' theories, I prefer to say for sure if something works after I have enough data.

Does the nVidia output DoVi content using HDMI Tunneling or its using DoVi (Profile 5) Low Latency Mode?

CalMAN software generator don't bypass any Windows display manager, there it matters to have accurate generation, as you can have accurate thru exclusive modes and inaccurate in normal windows etc.

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post #3395 of 3665 Old 09-14-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I don't like the 'guessing if it work' theories, I prefer to say for sure if something works after I have enough data.
I think it's the same scenario: the software level (in this case, a video game's rederer) does the DV encoding (probably with a licensed SDK from Dolby) and NVAPI passes it through (without having to understand the proprietary format, no DV encoding or decoding is ever done natively by GPU hardware or GPU driver / API) as if it was 8-bit Full RGB (the TV knows it's DV inside but the GPU doesn't need to).
https://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/co.../nvapi_8h.html
Quote:
NV_HDR_MODE_DOLBY_VISION Source: RGB8 Dolby Vision encoded (12 bpc YCbCr422 packed into RGB8) Output: Dolby Vision encoded : Application is to encoded frames in DV format and embed DV dynamic metadata as described in Dolby Vision specification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Does the nVidia output DoVi content using HDMI Tunneling or its using DoVi (Profile 5) Low Latency Mode?
No idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
CalMAN software generator don't bypass any Windows display manager, there it matters to have accurate generation, as you can have accurate thru exclusive modes and inaccurate in normal windows etc.
Is madTPG (with NVAPI support) not an option with the Fury? (I don't have one. I am debating if I should... But I really, REALLY don't want to waste any more money into this ever-halfworking sinkhole of LG calibration after my fairly young CalMAN license is already EOL. And I will probably crave HDMI 2.1 as soon as nVidia releases a new GPU with native HDMI 2.1 next year, so a C9 upgrade will look more sane.)
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post #3396 of 3665 Old 09-15-2019, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I think it's the same scenario: the software level (in this case, a video game's rederer) does the DV encoding (probably with a licensed SDK from Dolby) and NVAPI passes it through (without having to understand the proprietary format, no DV encoding or decoding is ever done natively by GPU hardware or GPU driver / API) as if it was 8-bit Full RGB (the TV knows it's DV inside but the GPU doesn't need to).
https://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/co.../nvapi_8h.html

Why it says for that mode (NV_HDR_MODE_DOLBY_VISION) ''Experimental mode only, not for production!''?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Is madTPG (with NVAPI support) not an option with the Fury? (I don't have one. I am debating if I should... But I really, REALLY don't want to waste any more money into this ever-halfworking sinkhole of LG calibration after my fairly young CalMAN license is already EOL.
The fury only add DV VSIF, taking the command from CalMAN.

CalMAN support only internal software generator for this, not any other way (like madVR).

The whole procedure is totally user unfriendly as its will not work most of the time, and there no way to test this unless you buy all stuff first.

I have asked many time to be released from CalMAN just a free utility which can check if a user setup can enable DV mode for patch generation, lo luck.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56571308
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post #3397 of 3665 Old 09-15-2019, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I have a hard time recommending the laptop method because it’s not guaranteed that it will work with most laptops. I had one machine working fine and then an Video driver update Made it stopped working and I had to force a roll back. If you want to try a machine with just an Intel GPU is your best bet. You need to make sure that in the Intel control panel you’re able to force it into full range RGB 8bit. Some OEM drivers have this feature hidden and you have to install the generic drivers to make it work.
Also for some Intel chipsets, the Intel drivers don't have the feature at all.

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post #3398 of 3665 Old 09-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Also for some Intel chipsets, the Intel drivers don't have the feature at all.
There is a hack (a single registry change, if I recall) to force Full RGB on HDMI / HDTV devices for Intel (in the absence of GUI controls) but it's some lost archaic knowledge (I am pretty sure I used it several years ago but can't find it again now).
Sometimes you can install the latest unbranded driver from Intel's site by extracting it and selecting the *.inf manually in Windows's Device Manager (/ update driver) even if setup.exe says it's not supported. (But it doesn't work for all dev_id I am not sure it can help with the RGB settings.)


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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Why it says for that mode (NV_HDR_MODE_DOLBY_VISION) ''Experimental mode only, not for production!''?
This was the first result which came up when I searched for any official public documentation. If somebody is really interested I am sure there is an up-to-date revision of this same document or a different resource (but may be private and not public) where they mention the production ready implementation (or may be nVidia still considers it experimental after several games decided to use it in production). For that matter, I think the 4:2:2 is also a typo or a mistake in that document. Is 4:2:2 even possible with DV?

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post #3399 of 3665 Old 09-15-2019, 04:54 PM
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There is a hack (a single registry change, if I recall) to force Full RGB on HDMI / HDTV devices for Intel (in the absence of GUI controls) but it's some lost archaic knowledge (I am pretty sure I used it several years ago but can't find it again now).
Indeed. I've since found something after I'd given up so I do actually have one more thing to try. I can't remember where I got it, but I have an exe called "madLevelsTweaker.exe" which calls itself "NVidia & Intel RGB levels Tweaker" from inside MadVR.zip. In my case though even though I know I have cleared ICCs and am resetting the video card gamma to be flat, something in the pipe line keeps changing the values after a few seconds.
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post #3400 of 3665 Old 09-15-2019, 11:54 PM
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Calman LG SD

A Few Questions about using Calm LG Home:

I've read most in this forum but at the end there a a lot of questions:
Scenario:
I'm using Calman LG Home with intel laptop and 55B8.

Laptop with calman and connected the TV to the HDMI out.
Using Calman Pattern generator.

So what i have to set for calibrating SD?

1. Set output level in Intel to full RGB
2. Set in Calman 16-235 in TV Black low
3. So what about expand patterns to PC Levels in calman?
Tried to untick it but then the measurements was off? (Or I did a mistake at another setting)
With enabling it, it worked.
So what is correct?

4. There is also a checkbox in Calman using native gamma?
Do I have to check or uncheck it?

5. What about using "Include black in Avg/Max De

6. What about use measured black level? Set it checked or use 0,0 because of oled?

Thanks

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post #3401 of 3665 Old 09-16-2019, 12:07 AM
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Calman LG HDR/DV

I've read about adjusting 2Pt for HDR/DV in Service Menü (Warm).
But I don't know if i have to calibrate it in SD oder HDR?

Scenario:

Connected PC with Nvidia Card and calman connected to the TV (55B8) (HDMI)
Using Calman Pattern generator.
So as i can set windows to use HDR for apps it will activate the HDR Mode.
Can i take the calman patterns for HDR and DV if in this mode or do i use another pattern generator?

So what i have to set for calibrating HDR/DV?

Questions:
1. 2pt Whitemode in Service Menu. Adjusting SD or HDR Patterns?
2. Only measure 100% white or doing the greeyscale?
3. Just gain controls or also the low controls?
4. ABL on or off?
5. Can I use a pc to activate HDR on HDMI and then use calman patterns?

Thanks
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post #3402 of 3665 Old 09-18-2019, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Pajonk View Post
A Few Questions about using Calm LG Home:
I'm not an expert but I'll have a stab since no-one else has replied yet

Quote:
Laptop with calman and connected the TV to the HDMI out.
Using Calman Pattern generator.

So what i have to set for calibrating SD?

1. Set output level in Intel to full RGB
2. Set in Calman 16-235 in TV Black low
3. So what about expand patterns to PC Levels in calman?

Tried to untick it but then the measurements was off? (Or I did a mistake at another setting)
With enabling it, it worked.
So what is correct?
(3) should be off. It's for use when something else in the chain is going to squeeze down 0-255 into a 16-235 shape, so it's pre-expanded first to protect the final result. Your Intel car isn't going to do that.

Quote:
4. There is also a checkbox in Calman using native gamma?
Do I have to check or uncheck it?
Mine is ticked, but the tooltip is somewhat unhelpful. Luckily, I kept some text from the old SpectraCal forums which have since been closed

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...4ce93d1#p29554
Quote:
What exactly does "Use native gamma for gamut targets" mean?
With the checkbox checked, the gamut runtype uses the measured 75% white (or whatever other stimulus level you've selected) to establish the luminance target of the gamut.
With the checkbox unchecked, the gamut runtype uses the 100% white reading and the selected gamma formula to establish the luminance targets for the gamut.
The default is for it to be checked, and typically gives better results on displays that don't have fine control over the gamma.
Joel Barsotti : Leaving it checked makes the most sense.
Quote:
5. What about using "Include black in Avg/Max De
6. What about use measured black level? Set it checked or use 0,0 because of oled?
(6) Yes, you can safely set it to 0. You can measure it if you like but it will take ages to get a very very dark value, so this option saves time.
(5) related to (6), if you don't care about the black value you don't want to include the number in the calculation of average/max as it could change the results of 10%-100%.

HTH
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post #3403 of 3665 Old 09-18-2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Pajonk View Post
Calman LG HDR/DV

I've read about adjusting 2Pt for HDR/DV in Service Menü (Warm).
But I don't know if i have to calibrate it in SD oder HDR?

Scenario:

Connected PC with Nvidia Card and calman connected to the TV (55B8) (HDMI)
Using Calman Pattern generator.
So as i can set windows to use HDR for apps it will activate the HDR Mode.
Can i take the calman patterns for HDR and DV if in this mode or do i use another pattern generator?

So what i have to set for calibrating HDR/DV?

Questions:
1. 2pt Whitemode in Service Menu. Adjusting SD or HDR Patterns?
2. Only measure 100% white or doing the greeyscale?
3. Just gain controls or also the low controls?
4. ABL on or off?
5. Can I use a pc to activate HDR on HDMI and then use calman patterns?

Thanks
Follow what #mrtickleuk has already posted.
CalMAN's pattern generator will not produce HDR or DV patterns. It is SDR only. You'd need either a standalone HDR pattern generator, a set of HDR test patterns on disc or USB, or an HDFury box along with the CalMAN pattern generator to inject the needed metadata into the signal. Currently you need an $$$ external signal generator for DV patterns.
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post #3404 of 3665 Old 09-18-2019, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
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Follow what #mrtickleuk has already posted.
CalMAN's pattern generator will not produce HDR or DV patterns. It is SDR only. You'd need either a standalone HDR pattern generator, a set of HDR test patterns on disc or USB, or an HDFury box along with the CalMAN pattern generator to inject the needed metadata into the signal. Currently you need an $$$ external signal generator for DV patterns.
Thanks, but there is just a hashtag and not what he was posting?
Where can i find it?
Thanks
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post #3405 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Pajonk View Post
4. There is also a checkbox in Calman using native gamma?
Do I have to check or uncheck it?
Hi, When you perform 3D LUT verification or manual calibration with internal normal menu display controls, you have to untick the ''Use native gamma for gamut targets''.

When you have this ticked, CalMAN calculates the dE based to your selected xx% Gray which your workflow (gamut module based) layout page has been configured (which is usually 75% Stimulus Level by default) and not using the 100% White.

You enable this only when you will manually calibrate the gamut of a display in cases where you can't control gamma tracking using it's available calibration controls, so only when you have display/projector with 2-point RGB balance only for example where you don't have parametric control RGB balance controls to correct tightly gamma errors.

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post #3406 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, When you perform 3D LUT verification or manual calibration with internal normal menu display controls, you have to untick the ''Use native gamma for gamut targets''.

When you have this ticked, CalMAN calculates the dE based to your selected xx% Gray which your workflow (gamut module based) layout page has been configured (which is usually 75% Stimulus Level by default) and not using the 100% White.

You enable this only when you will manually calibrate the gamut of a display in cases where you can't control gamma tracking using it's available calibration controls, so only when you have display/projector with 2-point RGB balance only for example where you don't have parametric control RGB balance controls to correct tightly gamma errors.
OK,when calibrating my projector by Projector Menü Settings (by Remote) which has 2Pt, 20PT Gamma Equalizer und a useless CMS, then i can deactivate it.
Right? :-)

And when another Projector just have 2PT. I can activate it?

And when Calibrating an LG OLED TV, where ther is a CMS i have to uncheck it also because of the gamma equalizer. Right? :-)

Thanks
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post #3407 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Pajonk View Post
OK,when calibrating my projector by Projector Menü Settings (by Remote) which has 2Pt, 20PT Gamma Equalizer und a useless CMS, then i can deactivate it.
Right? :-)

And when another Projector just have 2PT. I can activate it?

And when Calibrating an LG OLED TV, where ther is a CMS i have to uncheck it also because of the gamma equalizer. Right? :-)

Thanks
When you will calibrate a device which has multiple point RGB balance controls (10/20) and as you will have pre-calibrated your gamma before you will move to CMS calibration, then you untick it.

When you will calibrate a device there you have problems to calibrate gamma as the 1 or 2-Point calibration controls can't help you, and you will use 75% Luminance patterns for CMS, then you tick it.

Generally whole CMS/Grayscale calculations based to 100% White readings (and to Black also), this feature just will use your selected % Gray Luminance level to calculate the gamut targets, so it will bypass the problem you have with gamma, but use just your measured xx% gray as reference for the calculations.
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post #3408 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Pajonk View Post
Thanks, but there is just a hashtag and not what he was posting?
Where can i find it?
Thanks
It was the post directly above mine...
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post #3409 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Generally whole CMS/Grayscale calculations based to 100% White readings (and to Black also), this feature just will use your selected % Gray Luminance level to calculate the gamut targets, so it will bypass the problem you have with gamma, but use just your measured xx% gray as reference for the calculations.
Interesting. Looks like I'm going to start unticking it then :-)

I've tried reading back over old posts to find the next piece of information but I'm getting lost. I know some things are possible with other means than Calman, but just for now I'm asking specifically about Calman as I already know the answers with some other software . Is it possible to do the following tasks, either with options I haven't found yet, or by copying/replacing files and stopping/starting Calman at particular times?
Task 1. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc and not to the TV. Then on a later day, continue with the calibration (loading the 1DLUT from disc to the Workflow and then to the TV) without having to re-do the greyscale with the meter. This would allow me to experiment with different 3DLUT options using a known "good" greyscale set of readings.

Task 2. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc for later use. Proceed to the 3DLUT and spend hours doing a 10,000 point 3DLUT. Save that all to disc and not upload to the TV. Then on a later day, load the Workflow and then load the 1DLUT from disc, upload to the TV, then load the 3DLUT from disc, and then to the TV. Ie the meter is not actual even used at all on the second day until afterwards when you do verification.

Task 3. Do the 3DLUT without doing a 1DLUT at all and without uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV. Ie, use the Factory 1DLUT with my own 3DLUT applied on top. It seems that the Workflow is very "trigger happy" and there's no way to stop it uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV, even worse it sometimes does it without warning you and the only way to restore the Factory 1DLUT, as we know, is a full bloody Factory reset of the whole TV.
TIA!

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post #3410 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Interesting. Looks like I'm going to start unticking it then :-)



I've tried reading back over old posts to find the next piece of information but I'm getting lost. I know some things are possible with other means than Calman, but just for now I'm asking specifically about Calman as I already know the answers with some other software . Is it possible to do the following tasks, either with options I haven't found yet, or by copying/replacing files and stopping/starting Calman at particular times?


Task 1. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc and not to the TV. Then on a later day, continue with the calibration (loading the 1DLUT from disc to the Workflow and then to the TV) without having to re-do the greyscale with the meter. This would allow me to experiment with different 3DLUT options using a known "good" greyscale set of readings.



Task 2. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc for later use. Proceed to the 3DLUT and spend hours doing a 10,000 point 3DLUT. Save that all to disc and not upload to the TV. Then on a later day, load the Workflow and then load the 1DLUT from disc, upload to the TV, then load the 3DLUT from disc, and then to the TV. Ie the meter is not actual even used at all on the second day until afterwards when you do verification.



Task 3. Do the 3DLUT without doing a 1DLUT at all and without uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV. Ie, use the Factory 1DLUT with my own 3DLUT applied on top. It seems that the Workflow is very "trigger happy" and there's no way to stop it uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV, even worse it sometimes does it without warning you and the only way to restore the Factory 1DLUT, as we know, is a full bloody Factory reset of the whole TV.

TIA!


The only time CalMAN will upload a unity 1D Is if you do a full reset or hit the auto CAL button on the 1D LUT page.

If you just wanna do a 3D and leave the factory 1D, Just skip straight to the 3D LUT page and don’t do the full reset or 1D LUT step. This is assuming you have never calibrated or reset this picture mode before.
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post #3411 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Task 1. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc and not to the TV. Then on a later day, continue with the calibration (loading the 1DLUT from disc to the Workflow and then to the TV) without having to re-do the greyscale with the meter. This would allow me to experiment with different 3DLUT options using a known "good" greyscale set of readings.
Since you are talking about AutoCAL with CalMAN, there no available capability to save to disk your 1D LUT, finished or unfinished results.

For example, even if you stop AutoCAL of 1D LUT, close CalMAN and re-open it, you can't continue the 1D LUT AutoCAL, since there no DDC of the exact points you use during AutoCAL, which stored internally to the TV.

The 1D LUT has 1024 entries, so when AutoCAL want to adjust one point, it has to re-calculate+interpollate and send a whole 1D LUT of 1024 values to the TV. There no capability to send data values for a specific point only.

Its not like Lumagen, where you send only the data of the specific point you calibrate.

There no way also to retrieve the 1D LUT data stored internally to the TV and continue based to that data, or extract and save the TV data for backup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Task 2. Do the greyscale 1DLUT autocal measurements on one day, saving the results to disc for later use. Proceed to the 3DLUT and spend hours doing a 10,000 point 3DLUT. Save that all to disc and not upload to the TV. Then on a later day, load the Workflow and then load the 1DLUT from disc, upload to the TV, then load the 3DLUT from disc, and then to the TV. Ie the meter is not actual even used at all on the second day until afterwards when you do verification.
When you profile a display, you have to perform the whole procedure in one calibration session, not do the 1D LUT one day and continue the other day. (or pause any procedure one day and continue the other)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Task 3. Do the 3DLUT without doing a 1DLUT at all and without uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV. Ie, use the Factory 1DLUT with my own 3DLUT applied on top. It seems that the Workflow is very "trigger happy" and there's no way to stop it uploading a unity 1DLUT to the TV, even worse it sometimes does it without warning you and the only way to restore the Factory 1DLUT, as we know, is a full bloody Factory reset of the whole TV.
You can skip doing 1D LUT AutoCAL, but not reset the 1D LUT, as when you reset with UNITY it will disabled your RGB balance controls, and it will require to have [email protected], [email protected] and Color @50.

When you will not reset, you can do the White balance of 100% White using normal OSD RGB-High (or better do it using SM WB RGB Gains), select 2.2 preset and set your BR slider to the value you see that is better for your setup. Then proceed to 3D LUT.
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post #3412 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 03:16 PM
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The only time CalMAN will upload a unity 1D Is if you do a full reset or hit the auto CAL button on the 1D LUT page.
Thanks. I could have sworn it's done it before when I didn't mean it. For example, if I press the auto cal button, but then looking at the options available, decide I do NOT want to proceed and press "cancel".

Please could it not wait until I press "ok" on that dialogue after I've selected my Autocal options? Or at the very least, prompt and confirm with "are you sure"? I feel it is much too eager to send that unity LUT.

(I also hate the full 100% white pattern burning into my display, which appears while I am busy reading that dialogue box and choosing my Autocal options. The first pattern should not be requested until after I press "ok")

More than once, my finger slipped - I meant to press "read continuous", but I accidentally pressed "autocal", and BANG! Too late, factory reset required losing everything

Quote:
If you just wanna do a 3D and leave the factory 1D, Just skip straight to the 3D LUT page and don’t do the full reset or 1D LUT step. This is assuming you have never calibrated or reset this picture mode before.
Ok thanks. What if I have done a calibration of that particular mode before - will it (I hope) keep my previous one?

I still don't understand why it can't save the readings used to generate the 1DLUT to disc for later re-use? Once it's calculated the 1DLUT of 1,024 values that is sent to the TV, irrespective of the DDC-read restrictions, surely that is the 1,024 value 1DLUT that's "good" for upload at any time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Since you are talking about AutoCAL with CalMAN, there no available capability to save to disk your 1D LUT, finished or unfinished results.

For example, even if you stop AutoCAL of 1D LUT, close CalMAN and re-open it, you can't continue the 1D LUT AutoCAL, since there no DDC of the exact points you use during AutoCAL, which stored internally to the TV.

The 1D LUT has 1024 entries, so when AutoCAL want to adjust one point, it has to re-calculate+interpollate and send a whole 1D LUT of 1024 values to the TV. There no capability to send data values for a specific point only.
Ah. I may be beginning to understand the reasons for the restriction. On my previous Samsung as there was no way to read certain values from the TV, Calman had to "do full DDC reset, then carefully keep records of what it's changed". If that's the same kind of thing I could appreciate the situation a bit more.

Quote:
Its not like Lumagen, where you send only the data of the specific point you calibrate.

There no way also to retrieve the 1D LUT data stored internally to the TV and continue based to that data, or extract and save the TV data for backup.
ok.

Quote:
When you profile a display, you have to perform the whole procedure in one calibration session, not do the 1D LUT one day and continue the other day. (or pause any procedure one day and continue the other)
Pity, but if it's as above I see why.

Quote:
You can skip doing 1D LUT AutoCAL, but not reset the 1D LUT, as when you reset with UNITY it will disabled your RGB balance controls, and it will require to have [email protected], [email protected] and Color @50.

When you will not reset, you can do the White balance of 100% White using normal OSD RGB-High (or better do it using SM WB RGB Gains), select 2.2 preset and set your BR slider to the value you see that is better for your setup. Then proceed to 3D LUT.
Right, ok. So I can at least do some of what I wanted. That's good! On that second method, why the need to set Gamma 2.2? Or is that just to get the optimum Brightness number, and it can be changed to 2.4 later?

Thankyou both for your replies!

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post #3413 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:08 PM
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Woahw! I am shocked. Something is seriously wrong with the 5.10.03 EU firmware, at least on my C8 and when it comes to HDR10 over HDMI.
I barely used the TV during August and early September, so I am not even sure if I watched any HDR movies (or really just one or two) with this firmware yet. But I started watching a few Netflix shows in September and the near-black TRC error of the DolbyVision mode (a fresh new issue with this firmware version) started to bother me a lot with a very dark sci-fi show (Nightfliers), so I tried to use the Windows 10 Netflix app instead of the built-in one to get rid of DV (I can't tell the TV to use HDR10 instead but the PC app is not DV capable anyways, so it uses HDR10 for HDR titles...). However, I saw very crude color banding on some shadows and I assumed it comes from the PC. (I even started to ask for ideas about how to debug the Win10 Netflix app: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post58569610).
But today I decided to give a spin to this latest CalMAN release (5.10.1 RC1) and I realized that color accuracy is horrible with the default HDR10 Cinema mode (after manual reconfiguration of the user menu for the most accurate result). However, the Technicolor preset is now fairly decent after AutoCAL (it wasn't a smooth ride, I had to repeat it a few times before CalMAN finally managed to upload the 3DLUT matrix but that's another issue). But guess what... That obvious color banding is now gone with the Win10 Netflix app. I went back to the scenes in Nightfliers which looked horrible and now they looks fine (similar to the TV's built-in Netflix app with DolbyVision, except there are no black-crush-like near-black TRC errors with the calibrated HDR10 more).
This is ridiculous. Skewed near-black gamma is one thing but to have obvious magenta tinted shadows with the factory LUTs which disappears with a custom LUT is another level...
After this, I took a look at some movie scenes from the PC with MPC-HC + madVR and realized that the HDR10 Cinema mode with the factory LUT (but otherwise optimal settings) looks bad enough with many dark scenes (in John Wick, for example). However, bright scenes are mostly fine (I guess this is why I didn't notice this issue before I tried to watch a dark sci-fi).
Ridiculous... Basically both HDR10 and DV modes are broken. Only SDR was mostly fine (but I prefer these fresh AutoCAL results for SDR as well).

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post #3414 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:27 PM
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Woahw! I am shocked. Something is seriously wrong with the 5.10.03 EU firmware, at least on my C8 and when it comes to HDR10 over HDMI.
[...]
Ridiculous... Basically both HDR10 and DV modes are broken. Only SDR was mostly fine (but I prefer these fresh AutoCAL results for SDR as well).
Interesting - I can't say I've noticed a particular issue but I can certainly look more closely next time (I have the same firmware at the moment). Being nervous of the 1DLUT, and not having a very accurate near-black meter: Did you do both LUTs? I was planning to just do Matrix 3DLUT for HDR10 and leave the factory 1DLUT in place.

Quote:
I realized that color accuracy is horrible with the default HDR10 Cinema mode (after manual reconfiguration of the user menu for the most accurate result).
Sorry, don't quite understand - do you mean a manual calibration, shuffling menus around in Calman, manual WB cal and Autocal 3DLUT, or other?

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post #3415 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Interesting - I can't say I've noticed a particular issue but I can certainly look more closely next time (I have the same firmware at the moment). Being nervous of the 1DLUT, and not having a very accurate near-black meter: Did you do both LUTs? I was planning to just do Matrix 3DLUT for HDR10 and leave the factory 1DLUT in place.
26 point 16-255 for SDR and 20 point for HDR + matrix 3DLUT for both. (I have no DV capable generator). Retail i1d3 (0.5 ms integration time for >1 nit, 3ms for <=1 nit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Sorry, don't quite understand - do you mean a manual calibration, shuffling menus around in Calman, manual WB cal and Autocal 3DLUT, or other?
No, I mean I have obvious magenta tinted shadows and other posterization issues on dark scenes after turning all the "enhancers" Off in the default HDR10 Cinema mode (no manual calibration, no AutoCAL, just factory LUTs in place - I even did a full device Reset after the firmware update). But these quality issues unexpectedly went away after AutoCAL (so it's probably caused by the factory LUTs). I initially thought this HDR10 issue was a problem on the source side because I didn't expect the factory preset to show such horrible tinted banding. Having all these formats and kinds of sources made it a little complicated to figure this out.
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post #3416 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:38 PM
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Woahw! I am shocked. Something is seriously wrong with the 5.10.03 EU firmware, at least on my C8 and when it comes to HDR10 over HDMI.
I barely used the TV during August and early September, so I am not even sure if I watched any HDR movies (or really just one or two) with this firmware yet. But I started watching a few Netflix shows in September and the near-black TRC error of the DolbyVision mode (a fresh new issue with this firmware version) started to bother me a lot with a very dark sci-fi show (Nightfliers), so I tried to use the Windows 10 Netflix app instead of the built-in one to get rid of DV (I can't tell the TV to use HDR10 instead but the PC app is not DV capable anyways, so it uses HDR10 for HDR titles...). However, I saw very crude color banding on some shadows and I assumed it comes from the PC. (I even started to ask for ideas about how to debug the Win10 Netflix app: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post58569610).
But today I decided to give a spin to this latest CalMAN release (5.10.1 RC1) and I realized that color accuracy is horrible with the default HDR10 Cinema mode (after manual reconfiguration of the user menu for the most accurate result). However, the Technicolor preset is now fairly decent after AutoCAL (it wasn't a smooth ride, I had to repeat it a few times before CalMAN finally managed to upload the 3DLUT matrix but that's another issue). But guess what... That obvious color banding is now gone with the Win10 Netflix app. I went back to the scenes in Nightfliers which looked horrible and now they looks fine (similar to the TV's built-in Netflix app with DolbyVision, except there are no black-crush-like near-black TRC errors with the calibrated HDR10 more).
This is ridiculous. Skewed near-black gamma is one thing but to have obvious magenta tinted shadows with the factory LUTs which disappears with a custom LUT is another level...
After this, I took a look at some movie scenes from the PC with MPC-HC + madVR and realized that the HDR10 Cinema mode with the factory LUT (but otherwise optimal settings) looks bad enough with many dark scenes (in John Wick, for example). However, bright scenes are mostly fine (I guess this is why I didn't notice this issue before I tried to watch a dark sci-fi).
Ridiculous... Basically both HDR10 and DV modes are broken. Only SDR was mostly fine (but I prefer these fresh AutoCAL results for SDR as well).
Yes interesting. I know there was a Windows 10 update which introduced banding (I think disabling calibration loader in task scheduler fixes it, or something like that). I defer major updates for 6 months so I haven't had that update yet. I must say I haven't seen anything like you've described over HDMI (mpc-be with madvr) on 5.10.03.

https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/windows-10-1903-please-read/
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post #3417 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:41 PM
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Yes interesting. I know there was a Windows 10 update which introduced banding (I think disabling calibration loader in task scheduler fixes it, or something like that). I defer major updates for 6 months so I haven't had that update yet. I must say I haven't seen anything like you've described over HDMI (mpc-be with madvr) on 5.10.03.

Yeah, I know about that Win10 bug. This is not that. I used the Calibration Loader workaround after the last Win10 update. And AutoCAL wouldn't have fixed that if this was a source-side issue. I though this was source-side but it wasn't. I see tinted banding in the default Cinema mode but not in the calibrated Technicolor mode (same PC source).

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post #3418 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 04:48 PM
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Yeah, I know about that Win10 bug. This is not that. I used the Calibration Loader workaround after the last Win10 update. And AutoCAL wouldn't have fixed that if this was a source-side issue. I though this was source-side but it wasn't. I see tinted banding in the default Cinema mode but not in the calibrated Technicolor mode (same PC source).
Figured, i havent seen this issue but hopefully more people will check for it now. Same for a different hdmi source e.g. bluray player?

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post #3419 of 3665 Old 09-19-2019, 05:41 PM
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Figured, i havent seen this issue but hopefully more people will check for it now. Same for a different hdmi source e.g. bluray player?
These aren't great pictures (mobile phone junk) but I think you can spot the magenta outline of the shadows on the breast. That's the HDR10 Cinema preset (enhancers off, not calibrated). The one without the magenta tint is the HDR10 Technicolor (enhancers off + AutoCAL).
DV Cinema doesn't have this magenta problem (but the near-black is way too dark in that mode, it effectively has a black-crush). SDR Cinema has the least amount of issues (speaking of uncalibrated states with enhancers off).


Edit:

Err... Upon further investigation, the magenta tinting does come from the Win10 PC after all. AutoCAL merely mapped the affected ranges to different places where I didn't notice them for a while.
It's probably a variant of the infamous Win10 1903 Calibration Loader issue: despite this task being disabled the bug still triggers when I manually switch between SDR and HDR desktop modes (which I have to do for Netflix but not for MPC-HC + madVR -> this is why I didn't have issues with the latter before I started using the former).

- after a fresh reboot and the Desktop running in SDR mode, the HDR10 image is clean with the seamless NVAPI auto-switching
- After manually switching the Desktop from SDR to HDR, the HDR10 image has some tinted banding (although not as much as I remember from the early 1903 experience)
- After switching the Desktop back to SDR, the HDR10 image is still broken with NVAPI as well (the bug gets stuck permanently once it's triggered and not limited to the Win10 OS HDR mode)

Interestingly enough, I never see any significant banding/tinting on simple gradient ramp test images. (I did look! I looked at them yesterday and again repeatedly today: W, R, G, B, C, M, Y ramps... they all look fine or show minimal imperfections but nothing serious.) These patterns used to look like garbage right after updating to 1903 (and before I disabled the Calibration Loader). I am not sure if the old bug is now half-fixed (still bad but not nearly as horrible) or there are several similar bugs in Win10 1903 (and this one is similar but less sever).

It looks like I have to reboot the PC every time I try to switch the Windows desktop mode from SDR to HDR. The tinting persists between reboots while the HDR desktop mode is enabled. It only goes away after a reboot with the desktop in SDR mode.
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"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list

Last edited by janos666; 09-20-2019 at 11:38 AM.
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post #3420 of 3665 Old 09-20-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Edit:

Err... Upon further investigation, the magenta tinting does come from the Win10 PC after all. AutoCAL merely mapped the affected ranges to different places where I didn't notice them for a while.
[...]
It looks like I have to reboot the PC every time I want to switch the Windows desktop mode between SDR and HDR.
Phew. Thanks for the update

A couple of followup questions from me about my post yesterday.

If I want to change the White Point, eg to LG/Dolby's perceptual CRT matched one (x=0.308 y=0.313), I definitely need to do the 1DLUT, I can't skip it can I? But once that's done and I only want to re-do the 3DLUT for that Picture Mode, I can keep my own alternate-WP 1DLUT next time?

And any time I want to change the WP, it's a re-do of the 1DLUT. Is that right?

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