2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I finally got my LG C8 from VE and below is my initial impressions of Calman's autocal beta.

With LG Autocal there are two new workflows:
LG TV SDR Calibration and LG TV HDR Calibration.

With the SDR workflow you can autocal the following Picture Modes:
Cinema
Expert Dark
Expert Bright
Technicolor
Game

With the HDR work flow it is split to include HDR10 and Dolby Vision. The first page lets you select with you want to calibrate. You can calibrate the following Picture Modes:
HDR Cinema
HDR Technicolor
HDR Game
Dolby Vision Cinema
Dolby Vision Cinema Home
Dolby Vision Game

The workflows are similar to what we are familiar with but now you need to select the LG TV that you want to connect to in the Display Control Tab and give it the IP address of the TV. From my experience you can hardwire or use Wifi (as long as its not congested) to connect. Once Calman connects, a window on the TV will appear with a Pin number that you need to enter in the Display Control Tab. Once done then Calman has direct access to the TV's internal interface along with your meter and pattern generator as usual.

In the Display Control Tab it will show you are connected to the LG 2018 Alpha9 or Alpha 7 OLED, etc. Under that there are three selections:
Display Mode selection where you select which Picture Mode you want to calibrate like Cinema or Technicolor for example.
Active Grayscale Points where you select LG 26 or LG 42 Gray Scale SDR or HDR calibration.
3D LUT Calibration where it is set to 33 points. (When you get to the CMS layout and start Autocal, a pop-up appears where you can select Matrix, Lightning or the iRP Time or Point Based 3D LUT.)

What's interesting to note is autocal's 26 point gray scale layout does not use the traditional 10 or 20 pt IRE's. It increases the scans in the lower IRE's in an attempt to perfectly calibrate near back so you don't have to "play" with the brightness control any more. Your leave Brightness at the default of 50 and Contrast at 85 and autocal. I can confirm that this does work because when looking at content on the LG next to my A1E, near black details look essentially identical.
The Gray scale for the 26 pt are as follows:
0,3,4,5,7,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60,65,70,7 5,80,85,90,95,99,105,109


Also there is no 2 pt calibration, i guess because it's not needed.

Once everything set up for the 1D Grayscal LUT Calculation in the Display Control Tab, before you start Autocal you need to click the Full DDC Reset button at the bottom of the Display Control Tab. This resets the tables in the TV before you start, initiating Autocal. Then all you do is click the autocal button in the lower right control in the workflow. Calman will then methodically start adjusting all the IRE's. I tried to figure out the high level algorithm from just looking at the process but basically it selects a predetermined route through the gray scale vs starting from 109% and working it's way up from 0% like a traditional calibrator would do. Also when it's working on a specific IRE, it will continue to make adjustments until it's satisfied that it reached it's goal where ever that's set internally. That means you need a pattern generator to generate the patches and can't use patterns from a DVD for example because you don't know which one Calman is going to need.

After a couple of minutes, autocal completes and at that point you can use the DDC controls to make any adjustments. I found that although Autocal did a good job with the grayscale, when you open up the RGB Balance graph scale to look at the details, although the DeltaE is around 2.0, it's not very flat and i had a crazy peak in the gamma at 90% ish. That said i would like to see a feature where the user can select additional scans where autocal can start at 109% and work it's way up from 0% further reducing the errors like i did manually using the DDC controls. It took me about 10 minutes and 2 additional manual scan adjustments to flatten out the graph and reduce the errors to what i would normally do manually.

Once you are done with the Gray Scale then you can check your luminance levels and move on to the 3D LUT (ColorCube) Calibration layout. This Layout is a little confusing because although it has notes about the 3x3 matrix, Lightining and iRP Time or Point Based 3D LUT, you can't select which one you want to use until you start autocal and a pop-up box appears where you can make the selection. I used the Lightning LUT which takes 101 measurements. When the process starts Calman takes many readings and then calculates the LUT and stores it so having a fast meter helps with this process. The only thing that i didn't like was after all the patches were read, Calman leaves a blue patch up while it's making it's calculations. When calibrating HDR you don't want a bright patch left up for all that time. I hope Portrait removes the Blue patch while making the calculations in the next Beta.

After the 3D LUT is performed you can run a Color Checker, Saturation Sweep and final Calibration summary scans as with the usual workflows to verify the work.

Once you are done with Autocal if you want to re-run it again you need to re-click the Full DDC Reset button at the bottom of the Display Control Tab to reset the TV's internal tables and start calibration again.

Calibrating HDR10 and Dolby Vision also worked well but with HDR10 you calibrate the native panel at gamma 2.1 as you do with DV and then the TV applies the Tone Mapping, etc, for HDR. With DV you still need to create a new Configuration file as you do currently but there is a button on that layout which starts the upload once you plug in the thumb drive into the TV. You don't need to go out and into DV PM to initiate the upload like you needed to do on the 2017 LG sets.

As far as the C8's improvements from a calibration standpoint, from my retail sample, the set is amazingly good out of the box but again the gamma will be off if you start changing the OLED light. The traditional user calibration controls are the same as the 2017 sets but Autocal for the average user and the Home Enthusiast with the DDC controls can give you superior results. As for the Pro Calibrators, i think everyone will have their own opinion. I can say that the access to the DDC controls is a huge improvement over the traditional user controls with the remote control. With DDC you are directly manipulating the TV's internal tables bypassing any user layers that may introduce errors or problems.

In looking at familiar content after autocal calibration i was pleasantly surprised that the results looked very good to my eye. I didn't do a deep dive into the content to see if there were any anomalies but i didn't see anything obvious. I'm sure we will get more feedback on this from other users.

Below are my Technicolor and then the DV scans and some screen shots of autocal to give you an idea of the feature.
I see your putting most of your attention into the C8 threads in the OLED Forum after havibg this calibration thread moved to the Calibration Forum, but hopefully this is the correct place to ask my questions.

I see the 26 points you have detailed for the 1D greyscale/gamma LUT from 0% to 109%, but not that you have successfully calibrated a C8 with Autocal, can you confirm that it is 26 points and that these values are correct?

Can you also confirm whether manual controls for greyscale/gamma calibration are classical 21-pt (0%, 5%, 95%, 100%) or whether the C8 offers improved near-black calibration with 24-pt (or higher) including additional points at 3%, 5% and 7%?

I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what improved calibration control/capability the C8 offers to manual DIY calibrators using HCFR or other non-auto calibration solutions compared to 2017 or 2016 WOLED SDR calibration controls (21-pt greyscale/gamna & RGBYMC CMS).
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post #32 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Actually, you can use patterns from a disc or USB, if you select the "Pattern change prompts" option on the Source tab . Try it, even if you have a pattern generator, and you'll see the prompts - Calman tells you which one it needs, and waits for you to play the right title/track/chapter.

I have done this with a 10pt greyscale autocal on my Samsung TV using Ted's disc. It needed a lot of patience, but it is certainly possible. I'm not saying it would be an enjoyable experience doing a 26pt greyscale autocal or even a 33x33 3D LUT this way, but it IS possible . A determined enthusiast who doesn't want to calibrate very often and has already spent all their money on the TV, software and meter could do this.
As long as the pattern disk or file supports all of the patterns needed by the Autocal program (hopefully in the correct sequence .

Ted has already told me he plans to release an update to his disk once the dust has settled on Calman's Autocal solution, so this should eventually provide an economical source of patterns for the DIYer... (but possibly too painful to use with a large 3D cube ).

But for 26-pt or even 46-pt greyscale, this would not be too painful for the fanatical enthusiast - I manually syep through all of Ted's ColorChecker patterns as part of my fnal check when calibrating my 65C6P...
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post #33 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Actually, you can use patterns from a disc or USB, if you select the "Pattern change prompts" option on the Source tab . Try it, even if you have a pattern generator, and you'll see the prompts - Calman tells you which one it needs, and waits for you to play the right title/track/chapter.

I have done this with a 10pt greyscale autocal on my Samsung TV using Ted's disc. It needed a lot of patience, but it is certainly possible. I'm not saying it would be an enjoyable experience doing a 26pt greyscale autocal or even a 33x33 3D LUT this way, but it IS possible . A determined enthusiast who doesn't want to calibrate very often and has already spent all their money on the TV, software and meter could do this.
Mike, with this type of setup, you are giving away a lot of potential accuracy by not using the 3D LUT. And you really can't do one of those without a pattern generator. CalMAN has a Lightning LUT routine that works with relatively few reads, but the display has to be operating within certain parameters for this to work. When I do a LUT for one of my Radiance processors (9x9x9), I use CalMAN's recommended ~3000 reads to create the display profile that the LUT is calculated on. Takes about 2.5 hours for the whole process, even with the Radiance's built in pattern generation. And this is just for SDR.

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post #34 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:02 PM
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with this type of setup, you are giving away a lot of potential accuracy by not using the 3D LUT. And you really can't do one of those without a pattern generator.
Yes but I was answering the point for the cases where people can't afford one.
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post #35 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:09 PM
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Yes but I was answering the point for the cases where people can't afford one.
For SDR, MobileForge, Client 3, or the program's built in generator could be used. It's HDR and DV that are problematic.

You are correct in that it could be done with a disc. However, take it from a guy who has been calibrating his own displays with test gear since 2002: if you did do a full-profile 3D LUT that way once, you'd probably never want to do it again.
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post #36 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:13 PM
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The number of DIY vastly outnumbers the number of professional calibrators, so an offering priced to appeal to the DIY crowd would represent a significant market exoansion without really threatening the Pro Calibrators.

The other business model LGs 3D-LUT opens up is the possibility of remote 'virtual' professional calibration:

You purchase (or rent) an economy meter like i1DisplayPro and purchase, rent, or get 1-time use software to install on a laptop in your home, connect colorimeter and position on your TV, and connecting HDMI and/or USB from laptop to TV (whatever is needed to generate patterns and control TV). Your virtual calibrator then logs on to take control of your laptop and performs the entire calibration remotely.

I understand that there is much more to professional calibration including checking reference images, etc, but this should allow an enthusiast to get 90% of the way there for less than 10% of the cost of an in-house pro calibration.

Tme for some entreprenurial calibrators to take advantage of the new business models LGs 3D LUT opens up .
In this scenario, would it not be easier, and cheaper, for someone to rent hardware/software and then they do it themselves with an instruction set? If they had questions, the rental company could offer technical support?
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post #37 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:22 PM
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Can you also confirm whether manual controls for greyscale/gamma calibration are classical 21-pt (0%, 5%, 95%, 100%) or whether the C8 offers improved near-black calibration with 24-pt (or higher) including additional points at 3%, 5% and 7%?
It gives you access to the same points the 1D LUT uses for the calibrarion.... 26 or 42. BTW, you guys do realize all of this has been in CalMAN for years, right? The only thing new is direct access to LGTV LUTs,
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post #38 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I see your putting most of your attention into the C8 threads in the OLED Forum after havibg this calibration thread moved to the Calibration Forum, but hopefully this is the correct place to ask my questions.

I see the 26 points you have detailed for the 1D greyscale/gamma LUT from 0% to 109%, but not that you have successfully calibrated a C8 with Autocal, can you confirm that it is 26 points and that these values are correct?

Can you also confirm whether manual controls for greyscale/gamma calibration are classical 21-pt (0%, 5%, 95%, 100%) or whether the C8 offers improved near-black calibration with 24-pt (or higher) including additional points at 3%, 5% and 7%?

I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what improved calibration control/capability the C8 offers to manual DIY calibrators using HCFR or other non-auto calibration solutions compared to 2017 or 2016 WOLED SDR calibration controls (21-pt greyscale/gamna & RGBYMC CMS).
Yes the Technicolor scan i posted was a 26 point autocal with the correct ire's.
The C8 has the classical user controls but autocal gives you the additional points But you can use the level editor to create a profile with the additional points and do it manually if you want.

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post #39 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:27 PM
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@jrref Is there an option to "yo calman! you handle this! I'll be back in a few hours?"
ie, go thought every mode one after another. I have to justify this pattern gen i just got... so i'm going to pick the longest/most in-depth autocal.
Did you use the pause-between-readings-to-have-the-screen-cool option?

I wonder why the DV settings still need to be uploaded via a usb. The computer is talking to the TV directly. Maybe it some licensing thing and Doby doesn't let anything directly talk to the saved settings via the network. *shrug*

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post #40 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:27 PM
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For SDR, MobileForge, Client 3, or the program's built in generator could be used. It's HDR and DV that are problematic.

You are correct in that it could be done with a disc. However, take it from a guy who has been calibrating his own displays with test gear since 2002: if you did do a full-profile 3D LUT that way once, you'd probably never want to do it again.
Haha. Doing LUTs period is extremely time consuming..... especially large LUT profiles.
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post #41 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:31 PM
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@jrref Is there an option to "yo calman! you handle this! I'll be back in a few hours?"
I personally would not do this with AutoCal.


Quote:
I have to justify this pattern gen i just got... so i'm going to pick the longest/mort in-depth autocal.
Which one did you get?

Quote:
Did you use the pause-between-readings-to-have-the-screen-cool option?
I did. It is needed for HDR/DV calibration on top of turning off ASBL... both are needed, not one or the other.

Quote:
I wonder why the DV settings still need to be uploaded via a usb. The computer is talking to the TV directly. Maybe it some licensing thing and Doby doesn't let anything directly talk to the saved settings via the network. *shrug*
They don’t on the 2018s.
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I personally would not do this with AutoCal.


Which one did you get?

I did. It is needed for HDR/DV calibration on top of turning off ASBL... both are needed, not one or the other.


They don’t on the 2018s.
@D-Nice ,

I have the calman one VF pro. (last line in my sig.) I got it before news of autocal for LG. (I was having a real hard time fighting with HDR calibration and thought maybe having a better source would help. It did not! Readings keep changing. (i was using R.Masciola's UHD/HDR-10 files before.)

My plan (which you are now making me question) was to let auto-cal do magic then come back for each setting and screw with the DCC to tweak it. I'm also waiting on the c8 77" which i don't expect to see for at least a month. I'd expect the autocal will tweaked by then. (i'm thinking the 55" E8 for the bedroom.. i really like the look without the bar...)
My guess is i'm a little limited too because i'm using the c6 HDR meter. I'm not that crazy (most likely) to get the K10-A.

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LOL watching Autocal do it's thing is like watching a football game. You sit there trying to tell the machine what to do next and when it does something different you get frustrated. I've learned to start it and walk away and look at the results when it's done.
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post #44 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 04:55 PM
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In this scenario, would it not be easier, and cheaper, for someone to rent hardware/software and then they do it themselves with an instruction set? If they had questions, the rental company could offer technical support?
I think renting a full set-up would be fantastic. When I first started getting into calibration, I looked everywhere for a retal solution and there was none. I even looked into partnering up with 1-2 other DIY calibrators to share a rig.

Among other things,if an expensive spectro is involved, there is (rightly) discomfort about sending it off into the ether and if 'renting' involves putting down a deposit for roughly the value of the entire rig, that's likely to be a showstopper for many customers.

A rig based on a more reasonably-priced i1DisplayPro or a hybrid model where the customer owns his own hardware including colorimeter, laptop, and HDMI/USB cables and only the requisite software is rented (or purchased for limited-time use) could be more practical...
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post #45 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 05:00 PM
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It gives you access to the same points the 1D LUT uses for the calibrarion.... 26 or 42. BTW, you guys do realize all of this has been in CalMAN for years, right? The only thing new is direct access to LGTV LUTs,
I think I'm confusing things by using the term 'manual controls'

I meant 'manual' in terms of the TV's built-in greyscale/gamma cntrols (21-pt i 2016 & 2017 WOLEDs).

I believe you are using 'manual controls' to refer to manual control of Calman's software (which obviously has full access to modify the 26 or 42-pt 1D-LUT).

What I am interested in is whether LG has incorporated any additional points to control near-black in their intternal (built-in) greyscals/gamma controls (21-pt or 24-pt or 26-pt or whatever).
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Yes the Technicolor scan i posted was a 26 point autocal with the correct ire's.
The C8 has the classical user controls but autocal gives you the additional points But you can use the level editor to create a profile with the additional points and do it manually if you want.
OK, so I think you guys are using 'user controls' to refer to the TVs built-in controls (versus 'manual controls' to refer to manual control of Calman's SW control of LG's LUTs, including 26-pt 1D-LUT).

Unfortunately, I'm afraid your reference to 'classical user controls' implies just the same 21-pt greyscale/gamma controls offered on 2016/2017 WOLEDs (meaning no additional user controls for near-black, which is a crying shame).
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Well as i said you can use Calman's level editor and create the same 26 pt profile and use it manually on your 2016 or 2017 set and see how it works. I think LG did some work in the near black area anyway on the 2018 because it really looks good. It could be a combination of the calibration and the changes they made.

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I added HDR Autocal scans in post #2 in this thread.
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post #49 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 05:41 PM
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Well as i said you can use Calman's level editor and create the same 26 pt profile and use it manually on your 2016 or 2017 set and see how it works. I think LG did some work in the near black area anyway on the 2018 because it really looks good. It could be a combination of the calibration and the changes they made.
Not sure I understand.

Are you saying 2016 and 2017 WOLEDs have internal 26-pt 1D-LUTs and Caman's 2018 SW also allows control of those???
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post #50 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I think I'm confusing things by using the term 'manual controls'

I meant 'manual' in terms of the TV's built-in greyscale/gamma cntrols (21-pt i 2016 & 2017 WOLEDs).

I believe you are using 'manual controls' to refer to manual control of Calman's software (which obviously has full access to modify the 26 or 42-pt 1D-LUT).

What I am interested in is whether LG has incorporated any additional points to control near-black in their intternal (built-in) greyscals/gamma controls (21-pt or 24-pt or 26-pt or whatever).
No... not with the user menu control.
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post #51 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
No... not with the user menu control.
Dissapointed, but thanks for the calrification - so just the 'conventional' 21-pt user controls we come to know and love (and also hate, especially from 0% to 5%) on 2016 and 2017 WOLEDs, huh? Big bummer...
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post #52 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 08:24 PM
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@fafrd and D-Nice are the CMS controls working correctly on the new sets? Is it possible to run autocal for the primary and secondary colors without producing artifacts?

TV: LG OLED 65C8 Sources: Apple TV 4K, OPPO UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
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post #53 of 2973 Old 03-26-2018, 10:48 PM
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@fafrd and D-Nice are the CMS controls working correctly on the new sets? Is it possible to run autocal for the primary and secondary colors without producing artifacts?
D-Nice can respond. I own neither a C8 (65C6P) nor Calman software (HCFR)...

Last edited by fafrd; 03-27-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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post #54 of 2973 Old 03-27-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
D-Nice vpcan respond. I own neither a C8 (65C6P) nor Calman software (HCFR)...
I think he may have confused you with @jrref

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post #55 of 2973 Old 03-27-2018, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^
I've only used autocal on the C8 and have only used the User controls to adjust HDR to do some comparisons and they work about the same as the 2017 sets. D-Nice, i believe has worked with the regular User controls and he can comment.

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post #56 of 2973 Old 03-27-2018, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
What I am interested in is whether LG has incorporated any additional points to control near-black in their intternal (built-in) greyscals/gamma controls (21-pt or 24-pt or 26-pt or whatever).
In Service Menu perhaps? Could D-Nice or jrref have a look, please?

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post #57 of 2973 Old 03-27-2018, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by northrob View Post
In Service Menu perhaps? Could D-Nice or jrref have a look, please?
Unfortunately, I think I've understood from them in other threads that user controls are limited to the same ol', same ol' 21-points...
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post #58 of 2973 Old 03-28-2018, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Unfortunately, I think I've understood from them in other threads that user controls are limited to the same ol', same ol' 21-points...
You are correct
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post #59 of 2973 Old 03-28-2018, 05:48 AM
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I've asked this before but can someone please check the color accuracy (not just grayscale) on darker colors? This has been the area where the LG OLEDs have struggled the most over the years. The bright colors used by the default Calman "ColorChecker" have been useless at illustrating this problem. It manifests in content as increased noise and visibly discolored (usually towards blue or green) patches on dark skies, etc. Example from Skyfall attached showing this on the 2016 E6 (unwatchable) vs. a newer Philips model. A similar improvement was offered by 2017 sets like the Sony A1E. At least a 10% stimulus color saturation sweep as Vincent had done in the linked A1E review would be useful. If you have the time, 20% and 30% would also be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #60 of 2973 Old 03-28-2018, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I will once i have more time on my C8 and i do another calibration but i believe D-Nice ran a large 3DLut on his so D-Nice can you run these scans when you get a chance? It would be interesting to see.

John
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