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post #691 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
Tyler it's been a bit quiet the last few days so I just want to sum up the bugs we discovered

1) oversaturation at 100% confirmed
2) blue anomalies
3) yellow issue

Hope that Portrait Display can solve the issues soon if you need furher information please don't hesitate to ask.

I also can confirm this anomalies issues also using lightining lut feature on CalMAN.











I have to say it's the only one it gave me less issues in 3DLUT's creation. As you can well see for this 3D Cube graphs it have serious issues and it can't be fixed at all!!
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post #692 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by L30Z3N View Post
I also can confirm this anomalies issues also using lightining lut feature on CalMAN.



I have to say it's the only one it gave me less issues in 3DLUT's creation. As you can well see for this 3D Cube graphs it have serious issues and it can't be fixed at all!!

Hi, the reason you don't have the anomalies to the blue mainly area, to yellow (and generally) is becasue Lightining LUT is generating a colorspace correction based to the 26-Point Grayscale and 26-Point Luminance of Red/Green/Blue patches (all with 100% Saturation only), so you are measuring 101 patches in total.

This way is basically little better than a 3x3 matrix (since for matrix calibration, only 3 patches are measured to generate the 3x3 matrix....100% Red/Green/Blue), since you have little volumetric data from the profile, for that reason you have less problems if you compare your results with other users results, where they used more measurements (3D LUT...more volumetric data).

Using a 3x3 LUT matrix, you can reposition, rotate and scale.. so describing the global size/position of the gamut (from the native wide gamut to REC.709 lets say), but not to manage the internal (volumetric) content in a non-linear fashion. as there are no non-linear volumetric corrections/adjustments available. This is a very large issue, as any accurate calibration requires non-linear volumetric color management... and that means using a 3D LUT.

In reality, matrices are only useful for technical/mathematical colorspace conversions - not for calibration, but they are used for quick calibration in DV/HDR10 with LG 2018 (DV only with LG 2017) since the panels are very unstable to do volumetric measurements in HDR modes.
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post #693 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 04:44 AM
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2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk)

Since you measure only 3 primary colors with Lightning LUT, the ramps will be smooth, since there is no other measurement data to provide any distortion

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post #694 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 07:16 AM
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LG OLED Matrix Gamut Calibration vs. 3D LUT: What is the difference between a 3x3 Matrix (with or without a 1D LUT), compared to a 3D LUT calibration?

The matrix calibration will not be able calibrate all available colors the display can accurately display because it will clip the display gamut to the peak colors, while a 3D LUT calibration will.

3D LUT Calibration



Matrix Calibration



The 'clipping' is due to a 3x3 matrix defining a six sided 3 dimensional shape, with flat sides, while a 3D LUT will map each and every input color to a separate output color, without constraint, meaning each individual 'color' can be 'calibrated' without limitation or being restricted to peak primary colors.

The following 3D Cubes show the difference between the 3D LUT and 3x3 Matrix, with the Matrix unable to allow calibration outside of the calibrated primary colors.

3D LUT based Cube



Matrix based Cube



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wjboshart View Post
Regardless of the state of the autocal feature, I will say even ootb, these tvs are still very accurate. Basically only thing I’ve had to do is dial down excess blue in whiter than white. Don’t get me wrong, I would like to more accurately hit reference target points, but even just with balancing 2pt controls colors at max were dE 2.4 on my set
WRGB OLED's displays are NOT accurate volumetrically at all. It will require more advanced methodology from typical/limited patch-set and classic verification methods.

A great approach to assessing any display, to better understand a given display's underlying capabilities and issues that will affect potential calibration accuracy is to profile the native (un-calibrated display state) to itself, so measuring Primary colors and white point and generating a target color space with those values, a full volumetric profile of the display should map each and every measurement accurately to the target color space.

For LightSpace users, its relatively easy to perform, by profiling the display with a large cube based profile (with the display set to its native, un-calibrated setting), generating a new Color Space with the peak RGB & W values, as well as gamma, taken from the profile, and then generating a LUT with the Source as the new color space, and Destination as the actual profile.

The closer the LUT is to 'unity' (full cube with equaled spaced dots, when you will look the 3D Cube Graphics LUT Viewer) the better the underlying capabilities of the display.

For displays with inherent underlying non-linear inaccuracy, as shown above when a display is profiled to itself (and not directly associated with thermal instability, which requires the use of 'Stabilisation' patches to overcome), a very large profiling sequence will be required, in combination with a very large 3D calibration LUT to overcome the non-linear issues.

WRGB OLED technology will inherently suffer such issues, due to the inclusion of the 'white' pixel, as this will distort the standard RGB color channel relationship.

If you look at this image...



...you can see the way the ‘vectors’ change direction, and how multiple ‘input’ points all point towards the same actual color point.

(The colored dot is the measured color point, color coded for dE accuracy, while the ‘vector line’ shows where the point should actually be...



The output of the display is not linear and predictable when the input signal is changed in a linear and predictable way.

The causes display volumetric non-linearity.

In its simplest form, a displayed color is simply the sum of its components C= R+G+B.

If it is ‘linear’, then the combination is predictable in that changes in the input red signal has no effect on the light coming from the blue or green channel.

This is mostly true for old school CRT's, and for the most part LCD's and even LED's.

With a WOLED display, it has 4 emitters.

So, when the red signal is adjust, it will change the emission from the red LED, and may be also the white LED depending on the overall RGB signal that it is receiving.

This breaks the simple C= R+G+B rule.

The device now has a complex signal to light behavior.

This means the display is very non-linear in its response.

If you have a non-linear system, you need a full 3d model to make it do what you want it to. The greater the non-linearity, the bigger the size of the 3D LUT required to manage it.

(Actually, if you had direct access to RGB and W, then you would be best generating a 4 channel cube! This is often done internally in printers that have more than 3 inks; same basic idea.)

All above data coming from SDR profiling data, stuff are lot of worse in HDR mode, lets see about this below....

... by comparing WRGB OLED @ HDR mode (without Tone-Mapping active) 800nits peak vs. LCD @ HDR mode (without Tone-Mapping active) comparison will be used to better demonstrate the problem.

To be able to perform 21-Point Cube profiling in HDR mode (without tone-mapping activated), Maciej Koper (mkoper - hdtvpolska.com); popular and very expert calibrator/TV reviewer from Poland, performed a lot of measurements using LightSpace and testing the Stabilization feature, to improve panel stability over the time.

The following shows a volumetric comparison between WOLED and LCD displays when used for HDR, with a peak Luma of 700-800 nits, again with both displays profiled to themselves to provide relative data that is easy to compare.

These examples have been generated with special display assessment software used in-house by Light Illusion

The accuracy of HDR displays is something of a difficult area for many to assess, as the existing metrics used to define calibration accuracy are just not capable of showing true volumetric issues.

Therefore, measuring the RGB primaries, and white point, for any display, and generating a target color space with those values, a full volumetric profile of the display should map each and every measurement accurately to the target color space.

The 3D charts below are also color coded, with green measurements showing points that have a sub-1 dE. Orange points are between 1 and 2.3 dE. Red points are above 2.3 dE.

As can very easily be seen the WOLED has major volumetric issues when used for HDR, as the color gamut luma cannot match the grey scale luma, causing a clipping of RGB Separation.

The LCD display has relatively consistent volumetric accuracy throughout.





In the above 3D CIE graphs the LCD display shows a relatively good/acceptable level of underlying display volumetric capability, while the WOLED graph shows issues throughout, that become increasingly worse as display brightness increases.





The second set of graphs have dE tangent lines included, which show the dE error for each and every point. The difference is obvious.





The 'Cube graphs are 'normalized' versions of the CIE graphs, and help visualize the volumetric issue with any display. The WOLED graph shows just how much volumetric accuracy is missing.





And again, we can add dE tangent lines to help highlight the errors.

RGB Separation Charts





RGB Separation compares each primary R, G, and B patch of the same stimulus value (for example Red 128,0,0, Green 0,128,0, and Blue 0,0,128) to the equivalent grey scale patch (128,128,128), matching the individual RGB patch measured values to the expected color matrix combination for the equivalent grey patch.

Any error in the graph can show the display is suffering color decoupling issues with the display's separate RGB color channels, or can show that the color channels just can't match the grey scale luma levels, as in this case.

Again, looking at the above, a good display would profile to itself near perfectly... and would have an RGB Separation graph where the RGB plots follow perfectly the target line (all overlapping).

As can be seen, the LCD is 'ok', while not perfect, but the WOLED has major issues that are easily apparent, due to the inclusion of the 'white' pixel, as this distorts the standard RGB color channel relationship - excessively at HDR brightness levels. (if you sum the Y of 100% patch of R+G+B primaries you get 400nits while the same time if you display a 100% White patch you get 800nit...with WOLED's)

In very simple terms, what this means is the WOLED can never be calibrated for HDR... ...but calibrated with 3D LUT in SDR mode, the recommendation is up 105-110 nits, there will be to ABL limiting and displays are more stable overs the time.

All these issues has been ignored/missed from site/forum/you-tube TV reviewers, from calibration companies... while Hollywood clients ''which are very happy from their results''.

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post #695 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 08:54 AM
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Ted you are the wives' hero LOL Everytime I think to buy an OLED you come out with a post like that.
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post #696 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zielin View Post
You need it to be 10bit or 12bit for HDR. That said, you might want to be limited vs full chroma. As hdmi 2.0b doesn't have the bandwidth for full/10bit.
It does have the bandwidth at 24, 25, 30Hz! Even 12bit 4K24/25/30 is fine. It's only 4K50/60 that's a problem
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post #697 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 12:23 PM
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It does have the bandwidth at 24, 25, 30Hz! Even 12bit 4K24/25/30 is fine. It's only 4K50/60 that's a problem
nod nod. I'm always thinking about 60hz gaming

That said, auto-cal doesn't support Full anyway. They didn't add that support yet. (
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56165332

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
We will be adding full range AutoCAL support soon. It was one of the things that wasn’t able to be completed in time. I can do some testing in the next day or two to see if there’s a workaround.
Unless there was a work around that i missed. That said, we should all be waiting for the fixed version of calman before using autocal again.
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post #698 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 04:24 PM
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I notice the oled strobing effect with white / bright backgrounds during horizontal pans with dark objects but rarely elsewhere. Is this due to the white pixel or voltage irregularities / thermal instability when the white pixel is used at a bright / higher voltage during horizontal pans with a darker, lower voltage rgb pixels? The adjustment of pixels from high voltage white to low voltage dark pixels during the pan might explain the strobing but i could be confused. Might be an inherent flaw in the tech. Using real cinema on. Does trumotion correct this slightly through interpolation/ slowing down the transitions during pans?
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post #699 of 3757 Old 05-17-2018, 09:41 PM
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AFAIK it is caused by the faster response time of the oled panel/pixels. It happens only in 24p movies and also in high APL/brighter scenes but less visble, where a more brighter part pans with a less brighter part. To prove it just watch Avatar, the scene when Jack Sully controls for the first time his avatar and he rise from the lab bed. You’ll see his avatar lower coat strobing. This is something in common with plasma technology. Interpolation will surely correct this but it’ll also destroy the cinema like effect.

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post #700 of 3757 Old 05-18-2018, 12:07 AM
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Is the issue with Calman just specific to the C8, or with Calmans 3Dlut creation in general? I've used it for MadVR 3dluts with mixed results, but I always just assumed that user error played a role.
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post #701 of 3757 Old 05-18-2018, 12:25 AM
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It is general with CalMan LUT´s. Regardless of displaytechnology or LUT holder, a few posts back there was a user with eecolor+KURO - with the same problems. With the C8 you only get more problems cause of the problematic behaviour of OLEDs due the profiling (drifting). You need a good patchset to get it right on the OLEDs (LightSpace has some very powerful tools to avoid most of the drifting problems, and some users have very powerful patchsets with great results).

I had eecolor+KURO and had always trouble with CalMan LUTs, I never was able to get good results, they all were full of posterization and problems near black. A friend of mine created a LUT with LightSpace and the results were A LOT better with virtually no errors in real world content.

Tried then my eecolor with my previous B6 + CalMan LUT (a newer version). While I was satisifed at the beginning I slowly began to see the problems again. After my B6 broke I got a B7 as replacement, I sold my eecolor and now use my B7 without LUT-holder and I am pretty satisfied as the B7 is MUCH more bettet than the B6.

I can remember the times with my lumagen radiance xd + Panasonic S10 Plasma + 5x5x5 LUT from CalMan. This was the beginning of LUT calibration, the results were horrible but the charts were very pretty . But back then this was completely new for CalMan so therefore you could not blame them for that
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post #702 of 3757 Old 05-18-2018, 12:59 AM
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Hi, CalMAN 3D Lut issues are not specific to a brand/TV model. They're present in every color cube creation process with every panel.

You can read D-Nice's words about it HERE and HERE or myself talking and showing off evidences of the issues HERE.

Spectracal in the person of @WiFi-Spy (Tyler) is now aware of these and they're working hard to resolve them. At least the C8 only related issue "103-107% over saturation" which is a faster thing to fix, I guess (I'm not a programmer).

What you can do right now is wait an undefined period of time for a new (and hopefully working) CalMAN 3D Lut engine or buy an eeColor 3D Lut box (or the 3d Lut box you like the most) and create the currently best possible color cube with Lightspace CMS. You can even use a free software called DisplayCal to make a less precise than Lighspace color cube but always better than the one currently produced by Calman.

Be aware that eeColor box, as almost all of 3D Lut boxes currently available, it is 1080p SDR limited, but since there's no real 4K SDR contents and DV/HDR mode are impossible to accurately calibrate (read Ted's explanation HERE), you won't lose anything anyway. Your TV will upscale the 1080p SDR signal to 4K resolution and you won't even notice the differences in terms of resolution, but you will see your TV colors and accuracy greatly improved.

[JOKE]Or if you live in the Los Angeles area, you can ask CalMAN Hollywood Studios customers how did they get satisfatory results from it.[/JOKE] lol
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post #703 of 3757 Old 05-18-2018, 01:51 AM
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I may give DisplayCal another shot. I tried it 2-3 years ago on my ST30, and was having issues with near-blacks that I could never get ironed out, which is what inspired me to upgrade Calman to Enthusiast. Calman doesn't have the issue I had with DisplayCal, but I also don't feel that it's an improvement over doing a standard 2pt.

Does Lightspace have 3dlut support for MadVR? I might give it a go if it does.
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post #704 of 3757 Old 05-18-2018, 02:06 AM
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It does. Have a look HERE

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post #705 of 3757 Old 05-19-2018, 04:17 PM
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Has anyone noticed a brightness difference after a pro calibration? I'm reading that you need a calibration to unlock peak brightness on these sets, but can anyone say definitively whether or not the brightness increase is noticeable post cal? Specifically an LG C8.

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post #706 of 3757 Old 05-19-2018, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ma1746 View Post
Has anyone noticed a brightness difference after a pro calibration? I'm reading that you need a calibration to unlock peak brightness on these sets, but can anyone say definitively whether or not the brightness increase is noticeable post cal? Specifically an LG C8.

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I believe one of the original posters in this thread that does calibrations for VE said he measured slightly higher. If you go to the beginning of the thread and read his reviews I believe he posted in there


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post #707 of 3757 Old 05-21-2018, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
With everyone’s help, We have found a bug in our gamut edge detection algorithm that is resulting in a 3 to 7% oversaturation at 100% saturation.

We are currently working on a fix. Thank you to everyone who helped isolate this bug.


Any update on progress, or time span on a new beta perhaps?


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post #708 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 12:32 AM
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Id like to pull out this thread out of the grave and share my newest results with all of you and want to show you guys what it's achievable with Lightspace and the eeColor in combination with the C8. After all these bugs and really bad results I got with CalMAN I installed my eeColor again into my chain and its really woth it eeryone should have one. We used a special Patchsequence which helped a lot to stabilize the panel and also to reduce the drift during the profiling. It's really refreshing to see the Gamut coverage at 100% and not at 107%

No artifacts, no banding, no clipping or other disortions like I had with the CalMAN LUT.

We still trying to improve the results further and by the way I only hit 2p high and thats it no 1D cal like with CalMAN.

Big shoutout to the Squad

Everyone should compare with my CalMAN results which can be found here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56175920
















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post #709 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^
Looks great! I don't think anyone denies the fact that the eeColor box works really well. D-Nice posted his results many times. The problem is no HDR or DV

We were kind of hoping to get something close with Calman Autocal for all the PMs. Lets see how the next beta does

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post #710 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^
Looks great! I don't think anyone denies the fact that the eeColor box works really well.
You mean the LightSpace LUT stored in the eecolor works well, didnt you??
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post #711 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 06:49 AM
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Hey @BlackJoker , really nice results! But I think you can do better buddy!

@jrref that is not a real problem. Since you/we can not calibrate (or autocalibrate) them anyway, with an HDMI splitter you can still enjoy HDR10 and DV movies.

T.U.C. Master | TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | AV Receiver: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP,, ColourSpace HTX, CM Enthusiast, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: Klein K10-A, Jeti spectraval 1501, X-Rite i1 Display Pro OEM Rev. B-02 | Test Pattern Generator: Riccardo Biasiotto’s PGenerator (RPi)
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post #712 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 06:52 AM
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@BlackJoker , by the way, have you used LightSpace Connect as TPG or what else?

T.U.C. Master | TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | AV Receiver: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP,, ColourSpace HTX, CM Enthusiast, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: Klein K10-A, Jeti spectraval 1501, X-Rite i1 Display Pro OEM Rev. B-02 | Test Pattern Generator: Riccardo Biasiotto’s PGenerator (RPi)
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post #713 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Hey @BlackJoker , really nice results! But I think you can do better buddy!

Of course shame on me

But like I said we are still trying to improve the results further.

TV: LG OLED 65C8 Sources: Apple TV 4K, OPPO UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
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post #714 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
@BlackJoker , by the way, have you used LightSpace Connect as TPG or what else?


I'm using a custom made RPI as TPG and Lightspace has integrated the TPG as a native solution which is bit perfect

But you can use also Lightspace Connect should work fine also.

TV: LG OLED 65C8 Sources: Apple TV 4K, OPPO UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
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post #715 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Although this is great as a comparison, let's see how Calman eventually shakes out. What's driving my interest is i want a calibration system that gives results similar to eeColor, for example, that pro and enthusiasts can use for a greater number of people in a reasonable amount of time.


After thinking about it, i can calibrate sets all day, every day, manually and get great results that most "pickey" users will find great but i would really like to see calibration technology improve so we can go beyond what we can do manually now and doesn't require special "boxes", etc.. to achieve it. Just think if Sony, along with LG and Samsung opened up their sets and the results were "good", not reference, but what i call "good enough" for an enthusiast type user in a home setting? That would be an evolutionary step towards getting to "Reference" some day without using external equipment.
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post #716 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Although this is great as a comparison, let's see how Calman eventually shakes out. What's driving my interest is i want a calibration system that gives results similar to eeColor, for example, that pro and enthusiasts can use for a greater number of people in a reasonable amount of time.


After thinking about it, i can calibrate sets all day, every day, manually and get great results that most "pickey" users will find great but i would really like to see calibration technology improve so we can go beyond what we can do manually now and doesn't require special "boxes", etc.. to achieve it. Just think if Sony, along with LG and Samsung opened up their sets and the results were "good", not reference, but what i call "good enough" for an enthusiast type user in a home setting? That would be an evolutionary step towards getting to "Reference" some day without using external equipment.
You could have that today if LG supported software other than Calman; the LUT upload process isn't a difficult one yet they've chosen not to publish the details. At the moment the only choice you have is something that can't even get the gamut right. It's really verging on shambolic that no-one noticed something like this, and I really don't know why LG have decided to go forward in such a limited way. Short sighted.
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post #717 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
You could have that today if LG supported software other than Calman; the LUT upload process isn't a difficult one yet they've chosen not to publish the details. At the moment the only choice you have is something that can't even get the gamut right. It's really verging on shambolic that no-one noticed something like this, and I really don't know why LG have decided to go forward in such a limited way. Short sighted.
"Shambolic". Great word! Never to old to learn a new word.
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post #718 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 10:11 AM
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"Shambolic". Great word! Never to old to learn a new word.
Yes, we kept all the good words and spellings, just for occasions like this
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post #719 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 11:03 AM
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Question to the guys that have both calman and lightspace. As you saw calman when it runs patches it stores 3dluts in a directory as ted show in calibration thread so the question is just before you sent the calibration to tv from calman if you can replace this 3dluts with a good 3dlut from lightspace and then hit upload the calibration to the tv.
Does anyone tried that trick or it is not doable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
You could have that today if LG supported software other than Calman; the LUT upload process isn't a difficult one yet they've chosen not to publish the details. At the moment the only choice you have is something that can't even get the gamut right. It's really verging on shambolic that no-one noticed something like this, and I really don't know why LG have decided to go forward in such a limited way. Short sighted.
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post #720 of 3757 Old 05-22-2018, 12:09 PM
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I know the answer but I leave it to @ConnecTEDDD and @BlackJoker . lol

T.U.C. Master | TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | AV Receiver: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP,, ColourSpace HTX, CM Enthusiast, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: Klein K10-A, Jeti spectraval 1501, X-Rite i1 Display Pro OEM Rev. B-02 | Test Pattern Generator: Riccardo Biasiotto’s PGenerator (RPi)
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