2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
As for the 3D LUTs for DV and HDR, Tyler will have to explain with autocal or maybe D-Nice can shed some light on this as well.
Hi John,

There no 3D LUT for DV or HDR10, as explained here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56234908

For DV/HDR10 its used a 3x3 matrix which is not a LUT, it's a only matrix, and for that reason its not adding any artifacts; as users have posted using 3D LUT AutoCAL with CalMAN here or here or here; as it is not doing any display volumetric calibration at all.

The difference between 3x3 matrix vs. 3D LUT explained here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56201380

3x3 matrix is not a new approach of calibration, actually is the oldest way of calibrating every PC monitor or display internally, from the initial release of LCD screens etc.. quick factory calibration which replaced by factory 3D LUT's later.

A 3x3 matrix can only control reposition, rotation, and scale,so a 3c3 matrix can only work when the underlying data is totally perfect/linear to start with.

Because no display has a perfectly linear underling setup (profile) there will be always bad non-linear issues that a 3x3 matrix cannot manage.

About DV, CalMAN measuring the 3 primary colors, it will calculate and send to LG the 3x3 transformation matrix for colorspace conversion to LMS colorspace.

See there for more info: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf
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post #752 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 05:45 AM
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BTW, Its been released @ 23 May 2018 for US customers the 03.00.75 Firmware for W8/C8/E8... with Update for Dolby vision calibration.

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post #753 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^
Very interesting so Autocal allows you to do a Lightening LUT in HDR and DV PMs and I tried it with various results. I know there was a difference between 3x3 and lightening because I could see the patches being measured. That said what do you think Autocal is doing when you select these CMS options?


Edit: I re-read your posts so are you saying autocal let's you run a 3DLut calculation but the results are invalid for all the reasons you listed?

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post #754 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Edit: I re-read your posts so are you saying autocal let's you run a 3DLut calculation but the results are invalid for all the reasons you listed?
If you are talking for Panasonic 3D LUT for HDR, for the reasons above you can't have a valid 3D LUT table for HDR10 without issues, I was talking for display characterization, AutoCAL is CalMAN's 'name of a feature', it's multiple readings of each point using guesswork trying to reduce errors, for that reason it takes 300-600 meter reads to calibrate 42 grayscale points (but as users reported it will require manual cal again). Display characterization takes 1 reading per measured point. There no problem for 3D LUT for SDR.
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post #755 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Very interesting so Autocal allows you to do a Lightening LUT in HDR and DV PMs and I tried it with various results. I know there was a difference between 3x3 and lightening because I could see the patches being measured. That said what do you think Autocal is doing when you select these CMS options?
Hi John, if you open the DV file, you will see measurements of 5 patches, Black/White/ 3 Primaries, and the 3x3 matrix also.

Do you see CalMAN to perform AutoCAL of 26-Point WRGB ramps with tone mapping disabled?

How many time it takes, and how much meter reads?

From the feedback I'm getting, only matrix LUT is working with CalMAN for HDR10/DV.

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post #756 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
At a high level:
For DV on the LG, calibrating manually or with autocal, Calman sends specific messaging to the LG via your pattern generator such as the Murideo, for example, to put the set in Relative mode and you calibrate the native panel with gamma 2.2. There is no tone mapping in this phase of the calibration. Once done, a new config file is generated and loaded. The set is then put back into Absolute mode and "does whatever process" to generate the EOTF parameters for DV picture mode.

For HDR, with autocal, except for the config file, the set is calibrated in Native mode similar to how it's done with DV and then the set generates the EOTF parameters for HDR picture mode.
For HDR calibrating manually, the tone mapping is enabled which is why they are using the code values to calibrate. Basically on the LG all you really need to do is the 2 pt to set the white point and the HDR lines up pretty well.

Again this is a description given to me at a high level. Tyler will have to add any of the details of how and why this works.

To me this is similar to how the Sony works where you calibrate the SDR vs calibrating the LG in "native" mode, and the set interpolates the settings for HDR and DV.


As for the 3D LUTs for DV and HDR, Tyler will have to explain with autocal or maybe D-Nice can shed some light on this as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
There is and has been a lot of testing going on that you are not privy to the results. 3DLUT calibration of HDR10 outside of the 1DLUT and 3x3 Matrix is not possible. That isn’t going to change.
If I understand correctly, the 3DLUT calibration is possible in SDR but buggy and the EEColor box is better.
In HDR and SDR, AutoCal is possible but not a 3DLUT, but that is not available anywhere except perhaps a Lumagen Pro $4k box.

So what is Autocal currently capable of doing for HDR10 and DV and is it effective?

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post #757 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If I understand correctly, the 3DLUT calibration is possible in SDR but buggy and the EEColor box is better.
In HDR and SDR, AutoCal is possible but not a 3DLUT, but that is not available anywhere except perhaps a Lumagen Pro $4k box.

So what is Autocal currently capable of doing for HDR10 and DV and is it effective?

- Rich
Even if you have a Lumagen Pro you can't calibrate HDR on an OLED TV with it. Even on LCD it would be pointless because of the dynamic nature of HDR processing on high end HDR TVs. Almost all Lumagen Pro users I have talked to are using them on a Projector.

HDR10/HLG AutoCal uses 1D LUT and 3D LUT (Matrix LUT Only)

Dolby Vision uses 1D LUT + DV Config File for calibration of the Dolby Vision engine video path in the TV.

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post #758 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^
Very interesting so Autocal allows you to do a Lightening LUT in HDR and DV PMs and I tried it with various results. I know there was a difference between 3x3 and lightening because I could see the patches being measured. That said what do you think Autocal is doing when you select these CMS options?


Edit: I re-read your posts so are you saying autocal let's you run a 3DLut calculation but the results are invalid for all the reasons you listed?

Dolby Vision calibration doesn't use the 3D LUT, it uses the DV Config file that is loaded into the DV Engine. Only Dolby and LG know what is inside the Dolby Vision engine in the TV, but I do know that it is separate from the HDR10/HLG HDR video processing path.

The DV calibration process is the same as on the 2017 LG TVs except you can now do the grayscale part (1D LUT) using AutoCal, and the config file is uploaded programmatically. You can also now do DV Cinema Home and DV Game mode too, compared to just DV Cinema on the 2017 TVs.
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post #759 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If I understand correctly, the 3DLUT calibration is possible in SDR but buggy and the EEColor box is better.
No. 3DLUT calibrarion is possible via the internal 33^3 LUT in the 2018 LGs and via any external LUT box (i.e. eeColor and Lumagen). CalMan currently is the only way to access the LG LUT and CalMan currently has bugs.

Quote:
So what is Autocal currently capable of doing for HDR10 and DV and is it effective?

- Rich
Grayscale and 3x3 Matrix.
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post #760 of 3401 Old 05-24-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Even if you have a Lumagen Pro you can't calibrate HDR on an OLED TV with it. Even on LCD it would be pointless because of the dynamic nature of HDR processing on high end HDR TVs. Almost all Lumagen Pro users I have talked to are using them on a Projector.

HDR10/HLG AutoCal uses 1D LUT and 3D LUT (Matrix LUT Only)

Dolby Vision uses 1D LUT + DV Config File for calibration of the Dolby Vision engine video path in the TV.
When you talk about matrix LUT only - are you talking about the way you generate the 33^3 LUT for upload (using your Matrix LUT mechanism), or is the LUT uploaded smaller than 33^3?
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post #761 of 3401 Old 05-25-2018, 02:23 PM
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Is PC mode still the way to go for calibrating for games? It's extremely annoying that game mode has the color gamut locked to Wide.

Also once the AutoCal bugs are fixed could using AutoCal in Game mode correct for the color gamut being locked?
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post #762 of 3401 Old 05-25-2018, 03:40 PM
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When you talk about matrix LUT only - are you talking about the way you generate the 33^3 LUT for upload (using your Matrix LUT mechanism), or is the LUT uploaded smaller than 33^3?
It is a full 33^3 cube, generated via our Matrix LUT process (3D LUT created from 3x3 Matrix Math).
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post #763 of 3401 Old 05-25-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by xMrAx View Post
Is PC mode still the way to go for calibrating for games? It's extremely annoying that game mode has the color gamut locked to Wide.

Also once the AutoCal bugs are fixed could using AutoCal in Game mode correct for the color gamut being locked?

I'd like to know this too.. but 0-255 (full) isn't yet support by auto-cal too... soo.. i have a lot of hope for the next beta release. (any guess ETA for that?)

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post #764 of 3401 Old 05-26-2018, 07:51 AM
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It is a full 33^3 cube, generated via our Matrix LUT process (3D LUT created from 3x3 Matrix Math).
Am I right in thinking the Matrix LUT process just reads 5 patches, RGB/Black/White?

If that is the case then the fact that the correction is being done via a 3DLUT is surely just an "implementation detail" as it can't be any better than the TV could have managed if you'd just sent it the 5 measured values - it is really just a matrix correction with no volumetric benefit. Or am I missing something?

If so, it seems a shame; the CIE diagrams in HDR mode I've seen for these sets all have odd hue /saturation "wobbles" which this method won't be able to improve.

Are you going to provide full profiling (or even the lightning LUT) method for HDR?

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post #765 of 3401 Old 05-26-2018, 10:17 AM
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As explained here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56236952

When you will compare a 3x3 Matrix vs. 3x3 Matrix converted to 33-Point 3D LUT (or any cube size....256-Point 3D LUT for example) it will provide exact same results as a simple 3x3 Matrix, there still zero volumetric information.
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post #766 of 3401 Old 05-29-2018, 06:19 AM
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Yesterday I tried to calibrate the DV cinema preset using the custom dolby vision workflow in calman. On a LG 55C8

The process didn't work as wel as on the 7th Gen.

I had a flashing screen on several occasions, and the patterns didn't seem to be timed right with the measurements.

I ended up with a DV file which made the picture green.

Both tv and calman are on the latest firmware.

Should the DV custom workflow work with the 8th GEN?.
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post #767 of 3401 Old 05-29-2018, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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You need the latest firmware for the C8 because there is a bug in the DV HDMI "timing" which is causing your problem.
03.00.70 or .75
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post #768 of 3401 Old 05-29-2018, 10:05 AM
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Hi,

Yes I just spoke to calman.

Will try again with the new firmware.
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post #769 of 3401 Old 05-29-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
As explained here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56236952

When you will compare a 3x3 Matrix vs. 3x3 Matrix converted to 33-Point 3D LUT (or any cube size....256-Point 3D LUT for example) it will provide exact same results as a simple 3x3 Matrix, there still zero volumetric information.

So does this mean that the 2016 LG OLEDs accept a 33-point 3D LUT but Calman cannot generate it?


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post #770 of 3401 Old 05-29-2018, 12:51 PM
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So does this mean that the 2016 LG OLEDs accept a 33-point 3D LUT but Calman cannot generate it?

- Rich
Seems that CalMAN generate from Matrix LUT a 3D LUT 33-Point Cube (with zero volumetric info, see above), then it's uploading to LG ...and then LG is adding above to the Matrix LUT its Tone/Gamut Mapping for HDR10. Tyler can confirm if this correct, he was internal info's.

Basically it's unless to generate is, since you can't bypass the LG's mapping, you can't have both active (the one from 3D LUT and one from LG which is baked)

But as I have posted, it's not working any kind of 3D LUT for HDR10 with any possible way (even with Lumagen PRO it will not work) in that WRGB OLED world: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56234908

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post #771 of 3401 Old 05-30-2018, 11:06 PM
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Interesting thread! Can anyone recommend clips from real-world content that are particularly revealing of the problems being discussed? Time codes would be most helpful. Thanks!
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post #772 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Interesting thread! Can anyone recommend clips from real-world content that are particularly revealing of the problems being discussed? Time codes would be most helpful. Thanks!


You can clearly see the problems that caused by CalMAN in every scene as long as you are not totally blind. So no need to watch a specific movie. I watched several movies with bright and dark scenes all of them had a lot of problems. Red was highly undersaturated, posterization artifacts, color banding, skin tones moved into a greenish tint. Just a few problems I can see.

My LightSpace LUT don't even have one of these problems so I can enjoy the movies now.

By the way how is the actual status of a fix? Did portrait display found someone external to fix this?


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post #773 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Interesting thread! Can anyone recommend clips from real-world content that are particularly revealing of the problems being discussed? Time codes would be most helpful. Thanks!
Hi Scott,

The issues are visible when you will watch any SDR content when you will have active a generated LG internal 3D LUT using CalMAN 2018.

You can start reading with that order:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56183576

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56178402

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56231074

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56184826

CalMAN users/pro calibrators which have LightSpace software additionally and eeColor 3D LUT Box's, they have tested with their C8 displays and they don't have any problem with 3D LUT (using LightSpace+eeColor..so not using the internal LG 3D LUT, but with external 3D LUT capability, the known method was available for years before to HT market), but LG is not supporting uploading 3D LUT tables from other software except CalMAN 2018.

For that reason CalMAN 2018 users have to wait for a 3D LUT generation fix.

All these data are summary of users/pro calibrators reported problems.

Have you used 3D LUT with CalMAN 2018 with any 2018 LG OLED?
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post #774 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
You can clearly see the problems that caused by CalMAN in every scene as long as you are not totally blind. So no need to watch a specific movie. I watched several movies with bright and dark scenes all of them had a lot of problems. Red was highly undersaturated, posterization artifacts, color banding, skin tones moved into a greenish tint. Just a few problems I can see.
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The issues are visible when you will watch any SDR content when you will have active a generated LG internal 3D LUT using CalMAN 2018.

You can start reading with that order:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56183576

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56178402

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56231074

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56184826
Thanks to both of you! However, it would be much more helpful if you could point me to a few specific scenes in Blu-ray movies that are particularly egregious in terms of undersaturated reds, posterization, banding, and any other problems you see. (I'm sure I can find skin tones!) I would really love to have some specific scenes that really highlight these problems and can provide a common reference for anyone to look at. Thanks again!
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post #775 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks to both of you! However, it would be much more helpful if you could point me to a few specific scenes in Blu-ray movies that are particularly egregious in terms of undersaturated reds, posterization, banding, and any other problems you see. (I'm sure I can find skin tones!) I would really love to have some specific scenes that really highlight these problems and can provide a common reference for anyone to look at. Thanks again!
Opening scene in James Bond Skyfall should be a good test for posterization/nearblack handling. I used this scene when I had eecolor+LG B6 to test the LUTs, and the CalMan LUTs always gave me bad results. Black blotches al over the place, posterization and so on...
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post #776 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 11:36 PM
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In the background you should see smooth gradiation and fading to black or very dark elements, I never had that with CalMan LUTs. You can immediately see that when you switch to the unity-LUT (without LUT preset) on the eecolor
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post #777 of 3401 Old 05-31-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Thanks to both of you! However, it would be much more helpful if you could point me to a few specific scenes in Blu-ray movies that are particularly egregious in terms of undersaturated reds, posterization, banding, and any other problems you see. (I'm sure I can find skin tones!) I would really love to have some specific scenes that really highlight these problems and can provide a common reference for anyone to look at. Thanks again!
You could send your 3dl file to TED or upload it here, he will show you how your LUT looks like. I bet you will be shocked
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post #778 of 3401 Old 06-01-2018, 12:36 AM
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You could send your 3dl file to TED or upload it here, he will show you how your LUT looks like. I bet you will be shocked
+1

Its a file with similar name with the following, only the numbers will be different: LG0_SJ9500_323021876.3dl (see the date/time you performed the 3D LUT)

You can find that file inside to one of these folders: ''C:\Users\[your name here]\Documents\SpectraCal\CalMAN 5 Home Theater\LUTs'' or ''C:\Users\[your name here]\Documents\SpectraCal\CalMAN 5 for Business\LUTs''

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
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post #779 of 3401 Old 06-01-2018, 06:38 AM
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There are 3 issues here, right?
One being a bug in calman which is causing over stautration. (straight up bug) That splits over in to any LUT stuff. (right?)
how calman is doing the lut calitraion
and issues with woled itself.

At this point this is becoming a pile on toward calman. beating the dead horse isn't helpful at this stage - It is what it is now. Let's wait what fixes they come up with.
We all know we shouldn't be using autocal right now...

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post #780 of 3401 Old 06-01-2018, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree 100%, we are going to have to wait and see what the next release of Calman looks like. Jumping to conclusions is a waste of time and not going to make them work any quicker. I'm sure they will release a new beta when they believe the reported issues have been tested properly and corrected.

What I do "wish" is if they had a Beta program consisting of a few pros or enthusiasts who they are familiar with to test pre-release to flush out anything that they might miss.
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