2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 3757 Old 03-31-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I've asked this before but can someone please check the color accuracy (not just grayscale) on darker colors? This has been the area where the LG OLEDs have struggled the most over the years. The bright colors used by the default Calman "ColorChecker" have been useless at illustrating this problem. It manifests in content as increased noise and visibly discolored (usually towards blue or green) patches on dark skies, etc. Example from Skyfall attached showing this on the 2016 E6 (unwatchable) vs. a newer Philips model. A similar improvement was offered by 2017 sets like the Sony A1E. At least a 10% stimulus color saturation sweep as Vincent had done in the linked A1E review would be useful. If you have the time, 20% and 30% would also be appreciated. Thanks.

Here are 50% through 10%, post iRP AutoCal with a little over 1100 reads, in that order below... in 10% increments
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post #92 of 3757 Old 03-31-2018, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool thanks!
So do you attribute the skewing at the lower percentages to the WLED or autocal?
What do you think is going on and how does this compare to the Sony at a high level?
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post #93 of 3757 Old 03-31-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Cool thanks!
So do you attribute the skewing at the lower percentages to the WLED or autocal?
What do you think is going on and how does this compare to the Sony at a high level?
50-30% are limitations of CalMANs 3DLUT engine and 20-10% are issues with WRGB OLED. This is why it is so important to measure beyond the canned settings/charts and also use an alternative program for verification.

I don’t use CalMan to do my eeColor LUTs because I get better results with Lightspace and that box so answering your Sony question would be more of a comparison between competing LUT software packages and is not the intent of this thread.
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post #94 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
50-30% are limitations of CalMANs 3DLUT engine and 20-10% are issues with WRGB OLED. This is why it is so important to measure beyond the canned settings/charts and also use an alternative program for verification.
So with an external EEColor and using LS instead of Calman it isn't possible to improve the 10-20% (albeit at 1080p only?)
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post #95 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 04:30 AM
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So with an external EEColor and using LS instead of Calman it isn't possible to improve the 10-20% (albeit at 1080p only?)
No.... at least I haven’t found a way with all the tests I’ve done.
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post #96 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
No.... at least I haven’t found a way with all the tests I’ve done.

Probably until LGD it will implement a thermal stabilisation hardware feature, it will be hard to get this through to improve this low stimulus levels ?

Thank you @D-Nice for all your efforts.

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post #97 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by L30Z3N View Post
Probably until LGD it will implement a thermal stabilisation hardware feature, it will be hard to get this through to improve this low stimulus levels ?



Thank you @D-Nice for all your efforts.


The main problem isn't the thermal issues during profiling the display it's the lack of 3D LUT performance of CalMAN compared to Lightspace.
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post #98 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here are 50% through 10%, post iRP AutoCal with a little over 1100 reads, in that order below... in 10% increments
Thanks.

Disappointing but not surprising. This, along with the thermal instability you already discussed, shows that there is a lot of room for improvement.

I wish more reviewers would point out these limitations instead of just running a quick 75% stimulus calibration and proclaiming these displays are "Reference" quality. Without public awareness, there is little chance of LG improving these issues.

Another area with not enough press coverage are the viewing angles and calibration uniformity across the screen. Most reviewers proclaim perfect viewing angles without any objective proof to back it up. They also only test a tiny rectangle in the middle of the screen. Something similar to what ChromaPure developer Tom Huffman has done here would at least allow us to track any improvements LG makes over the model years:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
My biggest complaint with the LG OLEDs is the poor white field uniformity. I sat down and took some measurements this evening of the uniformity and the off-angle viewing of a 2016 LG OLED. It would be great if someone with the equipment could take similar measurements of the Samsung Q9F by way of comparison.

White Field Uniformity
Center: 0.93 (dE2000) R99.5%, G100.2%, B100.0%
Mid-right: 3.84 (dE2000), R102.0%, G99.3%, B100.7%
Full right: 4.68 (dE2000), R103.1%, G99.1%, B99.3%

I calibrated the display in advance so the center screen was close to perfect. The lack of uniformity appears as reddish vertical streaks on the right and left side of the screen. They don't seem to vary much vertically or between the left and right sides, so I just measured at the center of the screen and then moved right. As you can see, the measurements bear out the appearance. There are easily visible red bands on the right side of the screen.

Off-Angle Viewing
0-degrees: 0.93 (dE2000) R99.5%, G100.2%, B100.0%, 48.5 nits
18-degrees: 3.80 (dE2000), R97.2%, G100.6%, B102.3%, 46.3 nits (95.5%)
34-degrees: 6.41 (dE2000), R95.1%, G100.9%, B104.6%, 41.6 nits (85.8%)
45-degrees: 5.48 (dE2000), R96.3%, G100.6%, B104.4%, 37.0 nits (76.3%)

Even from a display known for relatively good off-angle viewing, the 2016 LG OLED is not great in this regard. As you move off angle the image gets less red and bluer and dimmer. Interestingly, 45 degrees off-angle didn't measure any worse than 34-degrees. In fact, it measured a little better, but I put that off to meter placement.
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post #99 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 10:49 AM
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40-50% should have the capability of being improved in LG 2018 AutoCal before it goes “Gold”. I will say AutoCal can do an excellent job on the grayscale if done correctly:

-Turn OFF ASBL
-Turn OFF Logo Dimming
-Set OLED light inside AutoCal
-Do not set the target dE less than 0.2

The 3DLUT works, just not as good as other 3DLUT offerings (more than just Lightspace). Based on what I’ve tested, it performs best with 3000 or less measurement points (2000 or less is even better). Unfortunately I don’t see this improving without a complete rewrite of the software as issues I have recorded have been noticed for years within the CalMan 3DLUT engine.
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post #100 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Thanks.

Disappointing but not surprising. This, along with the thermal instability you already discussed, shows that there is a lot of room for improvement.

I wish more reviewers would point out these limitations instead of just running a quick 75% stimulus calibration and proclaiming these displays are "Reference" quality. Without public awareness, there is little chance of LG improving these issues.
There are very few ‘technical’ reviewers out there. On top of that, almost all of them depend on review samples to do their reviews so they have to walk a fine line to ensure they are not blacklisted. It is the primary reason why I buy all my stuff from multiple sources. I’ve eliminated the ‘kiss ass’ aspect of reviews. Having said that, the few technical reviewers out there should know better.

Quote:
Another area with not enough press coverage are the viewing angles and calibration uniformity across the screen.
There are really only two display techs in the consumer market right now.... LCD and WRGB OLED. Neither have viewing angles like legacy display tech and I don’t see that changing in the future.

Quote:
Most reviewers proclaim perfect viewing angles without any objective proof to back it up.
Yeah, they should simply say best in the current marketplace.

Quote:
They also only test a tiny rectangle in the middle of the screen. Something similar to what ChromaPure developer Tom Huffman has done here would at least allow us to track any improvements LG makes over the model years:
Technical reviewers test just like Tom. Don’t expect the same from lesser sources.
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post #101 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
40-50% should have the capability of being improved in LG 2018 AutoCal before it goes “Gold”. I will say AutoCal can do an excellent job on the grayscale if done correctly:



-Turn OFF ASBL

-Turn OFF Logo Dimming

-Set OLED light inside AutoCal

-Do not set the target dE less than 0.2



The 3DLUT works, just not as good as other 3DLUT offerings (more than just Lightspace). Based on what I’ve tested, it performs best with 3000 or less measurement points (2000 or less is even better). Unfortunately I don’t see this improving without a complete rewrite of the software as issues I have recorded have been noticed for years within the CalMan 3DLUT engine.


What do mean with set OLED light inside AutoCal do you mean with DDC controls?

Is it possible to set dE target again? In last CalMAN versions this wasn't possible anymore

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post #102 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Another area with not enough press coverage are the viewing angles and calibration uniformity across the screen. Most reviewers proclaim perfect viewing angles without any objective proof to back it up. They also only test a tiny rectangle in the middle of the screen. Something similar to what ChromaPure developer Tom Huffman has done here would at least allow us to track any improvements LG makes over the model years:
I have some updated viewing angle data for the LG OLED. It turns out that the measurements before were not a meter placement issue. The color distortion tops out at 35-degrees at about 6.3 dE. I only measured out to 45-degrees.





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post #103 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 11:11 AM
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What do mean with set OLED light inside AutoCal do you mean with DDC controls?
Yes

Quote:
Is it possible to set dE target again? In last CalMAN versions this wasn't possible anymore
Yes
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post #104 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 11:23 AM
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I just got a Sony XBR75X900F in the house and I have got to say that, all things considered, I prefer it to the LG OLED. I haven't taken any measurements yet, just viewing. The white field uniformity appears MUCH better than the LG. The image is brighter, punchier and detail seems at least as good. With local dimming engaged, the black level performance of the Sony appears subjectively nearly as good as the LG, though I know that it won't measure that way. Also, the unit looked very good out of the box. Unlike previous models that shipped with the Standard or Dynamic mode as the default and look terrible, the Sony ships with pretty good defaults. I only made minor changes before watching.

4K/HDR local dimming LCDs have gotten so good and so affordable (the 75" is $3800 and the 85"--this is getting into projector territory--is $5300) that I wonder if the projector market is going to suffer. Sony makes one sub $10K 4K projector. That's it. No other major manufacturer makes a native 4K projector below $10K. Also, the OLED equivalent to this Sony ships for triple the cost and LG doesn't make an 85" at all.

Color me impressed.
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post #105 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
The main problem isn't the thermal issues during profiling the display it's the lack of 3D LUT performance of CalMAN compared to Lightspace.
Apologies if I have misunderstood, but I thought that the key advantage now was that the 3DLUT was built into the TV? So why should the Calman software affect it?

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post #106 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 12:03 PM
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I tried to do a SDR autocal yesterday, but my tv seems to use the wrong garmut (wide instead of normal). Points are way of with these settings. any idea how to avoid this?
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post #107 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Apologies if I have misunderstood, but I thought that the key advantage now was that the 3DLUT was built into the TV? So why should the Calman software affect it?
All TVs have a LUT. LG now offers access to it via CalMan. Just because you have access to the LUT does not mean you will automatically get a better calibration as the software matters.
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post #108 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I tried to do a SDR autocal yesterday, but my tv seems to use the wrong garmut (wide instead of normal). Points are way of with these settings. any idea how to avoid this?
Had the same issue. Make sure you are running the latest firmware and then do a factory reset.
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post #109 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here are 50% through 10%, post iRP AutoCal with a little over 1100 reads, in that order below... in 10% increments


How many reads we see here exactly?

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post #110 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 02:04 PM
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Regarding the white uniformity issue that Tom mentioned above, maybe something to try for the hardcore calibrators with a lot of time on their hands.

Does this suggest that calibrating the center may not be the best approach and maybe some method that reduces average error across the entire panel is better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stama View Post
Could anyone with a colorimeter test the color uniformity of the 65" 2018 LG OLEDs?

I have attached a screenshot of the uniformity report generated by DisplayCal for my LG65B7, manufactured November 2017.

As you can see, the brightness uniformity is pretty good, but when the color uniformity is taken into account, the errors go to as much as 10 dE from the middle of the screen. The black & white movies show as black & white, there's no strange color in the black & white image, and white snow is white snow all over the screen. However, when looking at white backgrounds, like those output by a PC, you can spot tints exactly in the areas the colorimeter shows large dE errors: the right hand side of the screen, the top left, and bottom left have a red tint, the middle of the screen appears as greener by comparison, while the vertical column near the left side of the screen is yellowish.

For me, this is the thing I am interested in. The vertical banding at 5% and so on changes, and has improved in time. However, the white background color tinting has not changed at all. If the manufacturing process has improved and the panels don't exhibit this kind of tinting, I will be interested in acquiring a 2018 OLED.

To generate such a report it took me 15 minutes with a id1Pro colorimeter than can be easily moved from one spot on the screen to the next. These are the steps to take:
- download the ArgyllCMS archive and unzip it some place (for a id1Pro on Windows, there's no need to install drivers or anything)
- download DisplayCal (I usually just take the archive, unzip it, and double-click on DisplayCal, but there's also an installer)
- open DisplayCal, use File -> Locate ArgyllCMS executables to point to the bin folder inside the folder where you unpacked the ArgyllCMS archive
- use Tools -> Report -> Measure device display uniformity -> 9 x 9 patch layout
- the grid will show up on the screen
- place the colorimeter inside a patch, and click on the "measure" button inside that patch to take the measurement; then move to another patch and so on
- when you are done with all the patches, press the ESC key on the keyboard, and the report is generated

There's no need to use colorimeter correction files, what matters are the relative differences between the different spots on the screen, not the absolute values measured.
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post #111 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
40-50% should have the capability of being improved in LG 2018 AutoCal before it goes “Gold”. I will say AutoCal can do an excellent job on the grayscale if done correctly:



-Turn OFF ASBL

-Turn OFF Logo Dimming

-Set OLED light inside AutoCal

-Do not set the target dE less than 0.2



The 3DLUT works, just not as good as other 3DLUT offerings (more than just Lightspace). Based on what I’ve tested, it performs best with 3000 or less measurement points (2000 or less is even better). Unfortunately I don’t see this improving without a complete rewrite of the software as issues I have recorded have been noticed for years within the CalMan 3DLUT engine.


Why do you keep repeating “this needs a complete rewrite of the software”? It’s absolutely not true at all. A 3D lut algorithm is just an algorithm, It’s completely independent from the rest of the software.

In the software we recommend iRP 3500 points as the minimum for the LG panels. Most post production facilities we are working with are using 10,000 measurement points.

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post #112 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I tried to do a SDR autocal yesterday, but my tv seems to use the wrong garmut (wide instead of normal). Points are way of with these settings. any idea how to avoid this?


You don’t need to factory reset the TV. Just do a hard power cycle by unplugging it from the wall. The 3D look up table should load when it reboots. This was an bug that popped up A few times but we have never been able to reproduce it consistently. The look up table loads correctly into the TV but doesn’t get applied until you hard reboot. But After that it is not an issue.

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post #113 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Concerning technical reviews, i agree with D-Nice and others which is why i set up this thread with a lot of restrictions so we can get to the "real" technical details of the set. Mostly, "reviewers" get sample sets from the manufacturers and 1) they need to be careful what they say as D-Nice said and 2) i may be wrong, but a lot of times the sets look like they have been "tuned up" a little becasue they sometimes look a little too good out of the box.

I feel the basic reviews are good for the consumer and the enthusiast to get the "Overall" first impressions and features when sets come out, but i also feel a thread like this, where it attracts the "experts" like D-Nice, Chadb, Todd Huffman, TEDD, Tyler Pruitt and others to get down to the details without all the "nonsense" is great and useful.

Putting things in perspective, these sets are consumer sets and to get everything like viewing angles, etc, to reference monitor standards is probably a cost decision but they have come so far over the years, we really should test the details and let the manufacturers know what we find. You never know, maybe someone finds a deficiency or a use case that they never tested or were concerned about?

Even with Calman, good productive feedback is a good thing. Maybe in the near term Tyler can feed back some of our findings and maybe the development team can improve the CMS calibration algorithm if that's what needs to be done. But in any case if users find some combination of settings like D-Nice posted, let's post them here so we can all benefit.

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post #114 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Why do you keep repeating “this needs a complete rewrite of the software”? It’s absolutely not true at all. A 3D lut algorithm is just an algorithm, It’s completely independent from the rest of the software.

In the software we recommend iRP 3500 points as the minimum for the LG panels. Most post production facilities we are working with are using 10,000 measurement points.
Hi Tyler,

I’m speaking specifically of the 3DLUT section of CalMan..... of which is code but can be classified as software and/or an algorithm. I texted you Friday to discuss what I’m seeing and possibly troubleshot but have heard nothing. If you think I’m bashing your software, I’m not. I’m pointing out issues I’ve seen for about two years now.
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post #115 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
You don’t need to factory reset the TV. Just do a hard power cycle by unplugging it from the wall. The 3D look up table should load when it reboots. This was an bug that popped up A few times but we have never been able to reproduce it consistently. The look up table loads correctly into the TV but doesn’t get applied until you hard reboot. But After that it is not an issue.
The power cycle did not work for me. Updating the firmware from the 3.0.0.25 and factory reset did work. That is why I recommended it.
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post #116 of 3757 Old 04-01-2018, 05:13 PM
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In the software we recommend iRP 3500 points as the minimum for the LG panels. Most post production facilities we are working with are using 10,000 measurement points.
If this is the case, then I can show you with real content and patterns how less measured points improve the end LUT. None of the charts in CalMan show the items I wanted to talk to you about.
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post #117 of 3757 Old 04-02-2018, 12:25 AM
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ok, firmware is the last one avialable in europe (03.00.61). Did a factory reset and now the first measurement works, but when I start the calibration calman is doing weird things... I think it uses the wrong colorspace when it does the autocal and when it measures the postcalibration...

and when I start a second try by restarting calman or the SDR workflow, it is using the wrong colorspace again...
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post #118 of 3757 Old 04-02-2018, 12:53 AM
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Did you untick the checkbox "enable calibration"? Jrref mentioned that you have do this before you run the verification measurements
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post #119 of 3757 Old 04-02-2018, 03:20 AM
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All TVs have a LUT. LG now offers access to it via CalMan. Just because you have access to the LUT does not mean you will automatically get a better calibration as the software matters.
Just some additional info, as D-Nice correctly saying, all TV's have LUT's, but not all TV's have 3D LUT's.

Actually very, very few have 3D LUT's.

Most of them just have a 1D LUT for Greyscale (often 3x 1D), and a 3x3 matrix for gamut.

Very few have 3D LUT's, even many professional displays still lack 3D LUT's, Boland (High Quality Professional Broadcasting Monitors) is a classic example.
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post #120 of 3757 Old 04-02-2018, 04:37 AM
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If this is the case, then I can show you with real content and patterns how less measured points improve the end LUT. None of the charts in CalMan show the items I wanted to talk to you about.
That sounds very interesting.

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