2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egidio Concas View Post
Thanks, man!

Anyways, I'm trying the one i've linked for now and for instance there are more things to set that the guide says.
See there why you need 'headroom': LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings

...and some others may help:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post34599017

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56500718

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post #1232 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
From my testing, it's only "very slightly" greener and you really need to do an A/B test for the average person without the magic eyes, lol, to see it in my opinion.
Much thanks to you and D-nice for your help. I will take your advice on running two different calibrations and compare. I will locate the other thread for more advice on this subject. Thanks!
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post #1233 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 09:52 AM
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I‘ve tried the alternate WP from D-Nice for 2017 LG Oled and it looks much better compared to D65. I‘ve noticed before that from an angle the picture looks better and there is also more green/cyan from an angle.

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post #1234 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 10:59 AM
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@D-Nice thanks for sharing these WP with us! Has someone alternate WP for HDR10 and Dolby Vision?

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post #1235 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think it changes for HDR and DV and you can set it for any calibration.

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post #1236 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I don't think it changes for HDR and DV and you can set it for any calibration.
Thanks will try it. The alternate WP solved the problems I had with how the picture looks.
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post #1237 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
@D-Nice thanks for sharing these WP with us! Has someone alternate WP for HDR10 and Dolby Vision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I don't think it changes for HDR and DV and you can set it for any calibration.
The perceptual matching D-Nice performed was for SDR mode. To have custom white point coordinates for HDR, someone has to perform a similar test using a post-production LED (like Dolby Pulsar) or Sony BMV-X300 (RGB OLED) and post some custom coordinates also.

REC.709 D65 is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K and x: 0.3127 y: 0.329 coordinates.

REC.2020 D65 is using: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K and x: 0.3127 y: 0.329 coordinates.

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post #1238 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:24 AM
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@chadb I‘ve tried pattern size with 2/5% compared to 18% window non apl pattern size. I‘ve got only very little differences in the darker part.

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post #1239 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
@D-Nice thanks for sharing these WP with us! Has someone alternate WP for HDR10 and Dolby Vision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I don't think it changes for HDR and DV and you can set it for any calibration.
The perceptual matching D-Nice performed was for SDR mode. To have custom white point coordinates for HDR, someone has to perform a similar test using a post-production LED (like Dolby Pulsar) or Sony BMV-X300 (RGB OLED) and post some custom coordinates also.

REC.709 D65 is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K and x: 0.3127 y: 0.329 coordinates.

REC.2020 D65 is using: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K and x: 0.3127 y: 0.329 coordinates.
You mentioned this before and that was the reason for asking for HDR10 and DV WP.

Is the D65 whithe point different for HDR10/DV compared to sdr?

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post #1240 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
You mentioned this before and that was the reason for asking for HDR10 and DV WP.

Is the D65 whithe point different for HDR10/DV compared to sdr?
Yes, the Y mixture of RGB channels to create the D65 is different and you have to use as reference a post-production display used for DV/HDR10 mastering (Sony for example). Not all professional HDR displays are approved from Dolby for DV mastering, lately the new EIZO Prominence approved by Dolby also.

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post #1241 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
The alternate white point has it's own thread but recently I spoke with D-Nice and tried it with his recommended offset on my C8 and I used Autocal. Interestingly, comparing two different PM's, one calibrated at D65 and the other with the offset, I could see the difference right away. After watching an evening of content, I agree with D-Nice that the calibration with the offset looks more "natural" to me. Unless you have a really good eye, you need to do an A/B test which is why some people might report that they don't see much of a difference, etc... Because OLED and LCD whites look different at the VE shootout coming up, we will be perceptually matching white on all the sets to the reference monitor so "White" on all the sets appear the same using this offset process.


D-Nice, from what I understand, is giving us a white point based off of a plasma display that's "accurate" to what the post production uses, (this is how I understand it at a high level), so you can get a better representation of what "Hollywood" intended us to see. Different reference monitors used at different production houses have different representation of "white" further confusing things. If you read the alternate white point thread, all the details are there posted by the folks who have a lot of experience in this area.


I've seen several professional calibrators come up with different offsets based on different reference monitors and it just depends on what is pleasing to your eye in your specific room environment. Above is just my opinion experimenting with this. Hope this helps.
Thanks for all your help.
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post #1242 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
D-Nice, from what I understand, is giving us a white point based off of a plasma display that's "accurate" to what the post production uses, (this is how I understand it at a high level), so you can get a better representation of what "Hollywood" intended us to see.
For SDR perceptual matching, ideally you need to use a Sony CRT Grade 1 Reference Monitor (as reference). But with KURO like D-Nice (and Ted) is using for that application it will work very well. Marching a 21-inch CRT near the 65-inch OLED can look very strange for someone will ask what exactly you are doing (lol)

When you perform perceptual matching, for more perfection, you need to have a neutral gray (using calibrated paint) wall behind the TVs and to any wall, ceiling or side wall, basically to any area that is inside your eye view because for the eye to see colors accurately (so to do perfect perceptual matching), the surround environment has to be chromatically neutral.

Post-production studios have their room, even desks painted using a specific calibrated neutral gray paint.

There is an industry-specified neutral matte gray (vinyl latex emulsion) with 18% reflectance (Munsell N5) calibrated paint specifically formulated for critical color viewing conditions with neutral surround as specified by ISO 3664:2009 (Viewing Conditions - Graphic Technology & Photography) / SMPTE ST 2080-3:2017 (Reference Viewing Environment for Evaluation of HDTV Images), not all gray's are the same, you need spectrophotometric measurement to be sure that it has an equal mixture of all the spectrum (r-o-y-g-b-i-v) colors, for that reason that paint is multiple times more expensive and there only a few companies which are selling it.

Below is the calibration report of the Munsell N5 calibrated paint I use to my room for example:

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post #1243 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 03:25 PM
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...and yes, your wife will say "NO!" don't even bother yourself to ask to her if she wants to paint the house gray lol

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post #1244 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 03:43 PM
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Calibrated paint! That's a new one for me . Is there a cheap recommended alternative that's a close match (he asked knowing there won't be one)?

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post #1245 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 04:04 PM
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Calibrated paint! That's a new one for me . Is there a cheap recommended alternative that's a close match (he asked knowing there won't be one)?
For Europe, its the one I use from ColorServe UK, company with deep knowledge about certifications and industrial stuff. (search ebay for 'Munsel N5, you will see the bottle of my picture). They provide calibration report when they prepare it.

For USA, its available the GTI Munsell N5 sold in gallon tans, in Europe its not available in stock from their European centrals (Germany), but you can pre-order and get it about 2 months later (and its 2x more expansive from USA's retail)

FSI has posted a formula (you can find at USA stores that brand) for a cheap alternative here: http://flandersscientific.com/tech-resources/

But there always tolerances, even if you create the same formula from 5 different stores mix-machines, it will have differences, so better to get a certified one
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post #1246 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 04:15 PM
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Yes that's the real product. There's no way in hell I'll buy that . Is there a cheap recommended alternative?

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post #1247 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 04:16 PM
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...and yes, your wife will say "NO!" don't even bother yourself to ask to her if she wants to paint the house gray lol
Drink some Vodka's, and go tell her. Note, not all Vodkas are the same, drink Gray-Goose looool
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post #1248 of 3235 Old 07-27-2018, 05:07 PM
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Yes that's the real product. There's no way in hell I'll buy that . Is there a cheap recommended alternative?
You need a calibrated paint (there no alternative cheap) to eliminate the negative effects of simultaneous contrast, there more details about simultaneous contrast here:

http://www.webexhibits.org/colorart/contrast.html

http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/Simult_and_succ_cont.php

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post #1249 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 12:47 AM
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The concept of 'white point offsets' for OLEDs originated from work performed by Flanders Scientific and Light Illusion, defined as 'Perceptual Colour Matching'.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/percep...our_match.html
And: http://flandersscientific.com/index/...htSpaceCMS.pdf

And MixingLight did a good article on it for the fil& TV industry: https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...-two-monitors/

RGB OLEDs, as used in the professional industry have very visual metameric failure issues.
WOLEDs, as used for home TVs, have far smaller issues, due to the inclusion of the white pixel (which causes a lot of 'other' issues.)

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You need a calibrated paint (there no alternative cheap) to eliminate the negative effects of simultaneous contrast, there more details about simultaneous contrast here:
Perhaps you are not understanding my question. I know I will not eliminate the negative effects of simultaneous contrast. I will not be buying a calibrated paint from anywhere, it is too expensive and ridiculous to me. I was asking for a recommended paint that you can buy from anywhere, any normal DIY shop, that people have found to be reasonably close to neutral grey. Never mind, sorry for diverting the thread off-topic

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Hi, here is the result of my latest 6500 point run. I notice yellow and blue as errateous areas, maybe Ted wants to do a deeper analysis, if interested.

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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Perhaps you are not understanding my question. I know I will not eliminate the negative effects of simultaneous contrast. I will not be buying a calibrated paint from anywhere, it is too expensive and ridiculous to me. I was asking for a recommended paint that you can buy from anywhere, any normal DIY shop, that people have found to be reasonably close to neutral grey. Never mind, sorry for diverting the thread off-topic
You can mix paint yourself. What you are paying here is the certification.

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post #1253 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 02:42 AM
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Perhaps you are not understanding my question. I know I will not eliminate the negative effects of simultaneous contrast. I will not be buying a calibrated paint from anywhere, it is too expensive and ridiculous to me. I was asking for a recommended paint that you can buy from anywhere that people have found to be reasonably close to neutral grey. Never mind :-)
I have understand the question and posted a link from FSI site where it has a formula for DIY paint but that paint brand is available only to USA stores.

There professional which own small post-production houses who have tried to find a cheap alternative also, but it was very difficult to find a close match, if you look colorist's forums you will notice how many people failed with DIY solutions and their 'grey' shade had another color bias inside.

Even trying DIY formulas, there variations from batch to batch which make the formula slightly different depending on when you get it mixed. And there's the problem of knowing exactly what that mixture should be since for precise colorimetry a complex formula is required.

To give you an idea, I went with Munsell N5 sample of the calibrated paint to 3 stores where they had devices to create paint from sample, all failed so much, the shade was totally different not even a close match, you will laugh if you see how far was the shade difference.

Not all White's are the same also in display calibration, while we use D65 which has 6504K, for each colorspace (REC.709/REC.2020 etc) while they have the same xy to create the D65, it's using different mixture of colors) while they have 6504K.

You can have 6504K temperature with different RGB channels mixture.

When you are using a meter/calibration software but you check only the Color Temperature Chart for the Grayscale, while the Color Temperature Graph can be perfect, the same time the RGB Balance Chart can be off.

This is happening because just a number 6504K is not the same as when we say D65 for a specific colorspace.

When you see the RGB Balance Chart of a calibration software and you see the three (R/G/B) Channels Bars at exact 100% = 0 dE; doesn't mean that you have used equal percentage of each color channel.

The calibration software it's doing the normalizing internally according to the selected colorspace target options to give you better presentation for easier calibration.



D65 White Point for REC.709 Color Space is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K.

REC.601 (PAL) D65: Red 22.20%, Green 70.67%, Blue 7.13%which gives 6504K.

REC.601 (NTSC) D65: Red 21.24%, Green 70.11%, Blue 8.66%.which gives 6504K.

REC.2020 (UltraHD Movies) D65: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93%. which gives 6504K.
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post #1254 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
You can mix paint yourself. What you are paying here is the certification.
Basically for normal living rooms its not recommended that calibrated paint, only if you have dedicated room, you can't even clean the wall, it will leave large mark when you try to clean the wall, but if you re-paint only that area with mark it will not be visible that you re-painted that area and will solve the problem but even fingerprints leave marks. Its only for special applications where color accuracy is very important. (You have to repaint every 6 or 12-months also) Its not that simple from white walls to move to gray walls, need preparation and multiple layers to paint.

Just the industry standard is that Munsell N5 shade you need to have, you can find thousand paints called neutral gray but its not the same, they will not have spectrally (SPD) flat performance.

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post #1255 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Basically for normal living rooms its not recommended that calibrated paint, only if you have dedicated room, you can't even clean the wall, it will leave large mark when you try to clean the wall, but if you re-paint only that area with mark it will not be visible that you re-painted that area and will solve the problem but even fingerprints leave marks. Its only for special applications where color accuracy is very important. (You have to repaint every 6 or 12-months also) Its not that simple from white walls to move to gray walls, need preparation and multiple layers to paint.

Just the industry standard is that Munsell N5 shade you need to have, you can find thousand paints called neutral gray but its not the same, they will not have spectrally (SPD) flat performance.
the kind of surface (wood, treated wood, concrete...) is important also for any paint in the world.

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post #1256 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by robbeh81 View Post
Hi, here is the result of my latest 6500 point run. I notice yellow and blue as errateous areas, maybe Ted wants to do a deeper analysis, if interested.

Thanks, Robert
Hi Robert,

The issues you have are typical for CalMAN 3D LUT (yellow, blue area mainly), note that we are not talking only for specific LG 2018 3D LUT (since you file can be used and be uploaded to eeColor for example), we are examining right now the data file that will be uploaded to your LG, so it's not an LG problem but generally a software cube generator problem. Your LG will work as LUT holder, when the generated LUT have issues, the display will have these issues to real-content, when the problem will affect some specific color areas, you need to find the scenes to have such colors to notice them or to check color reproduction evaluation patterns to locate them quicker.

If you run with exact same 1D LUT table you have now 3 new Cube generations with exact same cube settings and upload your results you will see that your issues will be randomly appear to other areas, but the same time your display is exact the same, right?

So it need some luck also to get less problematic LUTs, for that reason professional calibrators are not performing 3D LUT's with CalMAN and LG's 2018 to customers as a calibration service, its been posted here and to calibrator reviewers sites also (see HDTVtest), because when you have traveled to a customer house, you don't have the pleasure to run AutoCAL's all day long until to have a successful one.

I hope someone from LG will see all these issues and let the API free next year, for any people to use whatever calibration software he want.

Basically to copy-paste exactly what Panasonic has done with EZ1000, to load the 3D/1D LUT tables to a USB stick and then load it from normal TV menu to your TV (if you have many LUT's to that USB, you browse and select which one you want to upload and to what slot...1D or 3D), no need for any reset and you also have always backup of the files you have uploaded. Panasonic has also free application for iOs for complete DCC, multiple grayscale and full CMS normal menu controls, for people that want to use only normal calibration controls menu calibration (10-Point Grayscale, CMS) via any free software for example (not upload special LUTs).

This is not possible with CalMAN's DDC for example right now, since you can't use DDC of White balance (2/20-Point) or normal controls (so to write down the adjustments you made for backup reason using notepad/excel later).

So every guy will use whatever software he prefers for LUT generation (paid or free open source) and this will increase their sales also! Don't LG want the customers to be happy? LG's don't want to sell more units? Why they released a feature where you need to buy specific software to use it?

Why a DisplayCAL or LightSpace user has to buy CalMAN only to use it for LUT upload function? Is LG's interesting to sell more TV's not calibration software, right? Here is a very good post of an AVS user to 'Nezil' (which is LG's architect and project manager of the AutoCAL feature).

Here are some pictures of your cube:








It can't be meter errors the reason of these issues since its 100% Saturated colors the ones that have issues, @ ~100% Luminance levels.
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Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 07-28-2018 at 06:37 AM.
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post #1257 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Basically for normal living rooms its not recommended that calibrated paint, only if you have dedicated room, you can't even clean the wall
Ok stop there . You should have said that part first! LOL. I don't have a dedicated room, and I will never be able to afford one. This was only a casual question about the wall in my living room behind my TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I have understand the question and posted a link from FSI site where it has a formula for DIY paint but that paint brand is available only to USA stores.

There professional which own small post-production houses who have tried to find a cheap alternative also, but it was very difficult to find a close match, if you look colorist's forums you will notice how many people failed with DIY solutions and their 'grey' shade had another color bias inside.

Even trying DIY formulas, there variations from batch to batch which make the formula slightly different depending on when you get it mixed. And there's the problem of knowing exactly what that mixture should be since for precise colorimetry a complex formula is required.

To give you an idea, I went with Munsell N5 sample of the calibrated paint to 3 stores where they had devices to create paint from sample, all failed so much, the shade was totally different not even a close match, you will laugh if you see how far was the shade difference.


Quote:
The calibration software it's doing the normalizing internally according to the selected colorspace target options to give you better presentation for easier calibration.



The calibration software it's doing the normalizing internally according to the selected colorspace target options to give you better presentation for easier calibration.
Thankyou, I have only recently come to learn this. All very interesting

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post #1258 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
For those who are interested,
I did a 10,000 pt. 3D LUT today and it took about 3.5 hrs with the Klein K10A with the low light handler ON, 1 read. The scans and the PQ looked fine. No apparent banding or artifacts that I could see. Not that they are not there, just none were obvious to me. I used 260 nit. luminance level because that's what my A1E is calibrated to and I wanted to do a side by side comparison. I also did a 3,000 pt. 3D LUT at the same luminance level and that looked fine as well. To my eyes the 3,000 pt. LUT looked just as good as the 10,000 pt. LUT with content. I'm sure there are differences but they weren't obvious when casually observing content. The one thing to be aware about is the panel tends to "drift" when taking that many reads over that length of time at this high luminance level because of heating effects, etc,. I'm sure running the same scan at 100-150 nits, closer to reference will give more consistent, better results. I ran this with a couple month old Dell laptop, no issues.

As far as the 16-235 vs the 16-255 question, Tyler got back to me with this answer:
"Video signals are allowed to go above white 235 In Blu-ray or streaming content. only broadcast signals are clamped to 235. The above white is usually referred to as super white or smpte plus range."

I'm still a little concerned becasue when looking at several LGs, some sets are linear over 235 and some, probably due to their powersupplys, are not so i'm not sure how noticable the extra range will be and how much content is displayed over 235 but here is "an" answer to this question. Best to try both ways an see if you see a difference on your specific set in my opinion.

Again, in order to see these subtle differences, you have to look at specific content that you are familiar with and take a critical look. For those who want to look at the raw LUT file, that's fine but i'm mainly concerned on what the PQ is presented to the user. Hope this helps
Hi jrref interesting you said the banding and artifacts are till there but they didn't disturb your content. So maybe the content is bad or your eyes. I wouldnt accept a lut especially after 10k points or even 3k which will introduce banding and artifacts in the content. I think here are many people as me who are very intersted in your 3dlut file to check it with a test pattern which will show easily the whole nightmare, especially when your are not sensitive or well know about to look after it. I think some people didn't saw a right picture before and are misleading about good looking charts and belive then the picture is awesome even when it is obvisual not. So please share your files because most people never could made a lut run higher then 3000 points because of the crash of the software.

Edit: also I think the investigation will also help to get a better Calman Produkt when it all the Colour engine bugs are made visual. As the past shows the quality department didn't made a good job so far. So we are all sitting in the same boat. Using a software which announce everything but made in this early beta not the job as supposed to do. And I am glad that the LightSpace users here are willing to help with there analysis tool which Calman didn't offer so far. Because of that we received bug fix and new beta. And now Calman is better than Hollywood before.

Last edited by Garknot; 07-28-2018 at 04:20 AM.
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post #1259 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
So it need some luck also to get less problematic LUTs, for that reason professional calibrators are not performing 3D LUT's with CalMAN and LG's 2018 to customers as a calibration service, its been posted here and to calibrator reviewers sites also (see HDTVtest), because when you have traveled to a customer house, you don't have the pleasure to run AutoCAL's all day long until to have a successful one, since you have to perform a factory reset of TV every time you want to perform a new AutoCAL and this will delete other HDR10/DV calibrated picture modes also.
Sorry but I don't think this is correct. You don't have to perform a factory reset of the TV every time. You only have to perform a factory reset of the TV if you want to restore the factory default settings for a picture mode.

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post #1260 of 3235 Old 07-28-2018, 05:02 AM
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I'm trying Jessica Jones on Netflix in Dolby Vision. So it automatically switched the image to Dolby Vision, indeed. Should I set all the parameters as the one I have in technicolor? For instance, backlight 21 etc etc...

thanks... =)
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