If it's possible for the 3DLUT engine to use the manually calibrated GS (via the DDC) when brightness is adjusted (to say, 54), then why wouldn't it be possible to have AutoCal not reset back to 50 if all it's doing is having a robot move knobs rather than a human? My understanding is that it's just adjusting the DDC values like we're doing by hand anyway.

Straightforward question:
In regards to a 2018 LG C8, is DV calibration possible with just a laptop and an HDFury Integral or Vertex? or will I have to spend $1,500+ on a VideoForge Pro/Murideo Six-G?

Quick question, is it better to use a tripod or to place the C6 directly on the panel?

I have a hard time recommending the laptop method because it’s not guaranteed that it will work with most laptops. I had one machine working fine and then an Video driver update Made it stopped working and I had to force a roll back. If you want to try a machine with just an Intel GPU is your best bet. You need to make sure that in the Intel control panel you’re able to force it into full range RGB 8bit. Some OEM drivers have this feature hidden and you have to install the generic drivers to make it work.

Thank you for your input, Tyler. So I've verified I'm able to get full RGB 8-bit from my Intel graphics card (via the Vertex OSD). I've followed the instructions here.

In the laptop systems you've gotten the DV calibration to work with the HDFury Integral/Vertex, is this HDR IF still valid?
CUSTOM HDR IF: field: 81:01:18:36:03:0c:00:20:01:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00 :00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00

I feel like I'm so close to getting DV mode triggered. I also have a Macbook Pro with Bootcamp I'll try it with.

Today I have had firmware version 3.01.05 downloaded to my UK model LG C8.

If anyone knows what's changed, I'd really appreciate knowing! In particular if I can now upload lightning LUTs to the TV.

(One thing that I have tried, is that a "reset" in a picture mode doesn't un-grey white balance etc where there was a 1DLUT uploaded, so I assume that a way to avoid doing a full factory reset to restore factory settings for a single mode is not yet implemented)

Many thanks.

Since the latest update on mine I’ve actually had no issue with uploading luts. On my first set I had to unplug and do the soft reset to make the lut work


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DCT and Ted have last, remaining stock.

@ all:

has anybody here done a stress test comparison of the internal LUT processing of the LG B8/C8 vs. that of an external LUT box ?

How clean (or not) is it ?

Can any of you guys confirm (or not) that the larger models (65"|77") of the B8/C8 have more panel issues than the 55" ?

Thanks.

- M

yeah, that was the end result but to be fair that's not the whole story... Also - again, in fairness - it's not Tyler who is responsible for any of that, and he is also not responsible for Calman's code... but, he is responsible for his posts here and elsewhere, and he does represent this company...

It is stunning (but not surprising) that Spectracal cannot get their stuff straight, after all these years. But then again, they're broke, no money to hire high-end devs and to re-code this app from scratch. Overdue 8 years ago. They've been piling onto that garbage code base since then. But even if u had cash, u need to find people who know what they're doing, ergo: expertise in sw architecture and most importantly here: dead-on unit tests, a billion of those.

Said this 8 years ago. Nothing. This is coding 101 from 1975.

If this was an app that is being used in the medical field and/or for air traffic, u'd solve overpopulation in a week. Right now, u just have a lot of dead, pointless display profiles. And a lot of wasted time by some folks who could do other things... opportunity costs... Spectracal owes billions to it's users...

So, if LG is listening: please provide a very simple, free uploading app. It will cost you next to nothing. And it will provide two things:

(1) owners (who paid premium price for ur product) will always have a working solution to upload LG LUTs, and therefore calibrate the screen. That is the whole point of this LUT capable screen, not to be CM's bitch, as in: depending on a (currently) non-functional solution.

More panels sold, more happy campers. I will buy 2-3 of these panels, but I will not depend on CM....

btw LG, if I and others (have to) go the external LUT box route, and it seems currently that is the ONLY controlled way to get consistent high quality results, then I will buy the B8s (not the C8s), as I don't need the internal LUT - doesn't matter if it's 17^3 or 33^3... and u lose money

and we'll advise anybody here in Hollywood to do the same.

(2) Once Spectracal fixes all of their stuff - and it seems Tyler is saying they are working on it - the free uploading app can be used as a backup option, in case CM has issues.... again.

Just a little stat shared here: DCT alone had (so far) over 500 customers that used CM to upload to the eeColor (we always advise against it), and CM completely choked the box on upload. Box was non-functional, unless a full factory reset was done. We advised everybody to upload to the ee via the manufacturers app. All problems solved.

Even if CM works, it's necessary to have a working backup. Especially when calibrating a grading suite, that has a producer session scheduled later that day....

In addition, as anybody here knows that's been around for longer than 6 months: LUT calc was never and will never been CM's strong suit (it takes quality color science, they do not have the devs for that). In other areas, CM has so much potential, if it would consistently work as advertised.

So for LG, which provide a great panel, it would be of best interest to provide users a way to upload LUTs via a proprietary solution that is known to work. Again: that is the sole reason to have LUT capability.

All 3rd party apps, such as CM, can still be used if the user wants to - and if it works. And there is no need to give anybody else 3rd party access (unless u want to). But you need to provide an in-house solution that works.

If CM goes belly up (again) - and/or is EOL, and or continues to do what it did FOR YEARS with the ee... then LG, nobody can use ur great panel properly.... what's the point ?

it seems u guys have not done ur research on who u got in bed with...

- M

I've never worked on a B8 but "generally" the 55 is going to tend to be the "cleanest" panel. That said I haven't seen any "bad" 65 or 77 inch panels. I know there could be but the 2018 sets, "generally" are pretty good.

Everything you have said, from what I understand from D-Nice explaining it all to me since I've only been "around" for a couple of years, is true, and I don't disagree, BUT its also interesting. Besides LG, and Samsung, now Sony has an agreement for CM autocal. That said, while we will never know the business reasoning, there must be some good business decision for these agreements. If it were only LG and Samsung, OK, but from what I understand Sony is petty much the "king" in this space and they are a respected brand in the industry so there must be more to this then we can see. Not disputing your post, just looking at it from a different perspective.

there is a reason for the brand discussed here, but it don't matter, because even if LS, CM and Argyll (and I'll throw in CP for good measure ;-))) ) had direct hw access, it would still only make sense for any manufacturer to provide a free, in-house solution.

But especially with CM - and we all wish it would be different (because we all paid for it) - LG cannot put their ONLY access into the hands of these folks... please. That is idiotic and very naive, at best.

Btw, a separate upload app from the manufacturer would also remove some stress from CM... some users cannot upload their LUTs... besides that CM LUT are subpar anyways... and some of these users only bought CM for their new B8/C8.. or some other users only renewed their old license because of their new B8/C8... an old license that had to be paid up even for the years that they did not use the sw.... extortion ? almost.

CM will never provide proper sw, forget that, unless there is a seismic shift in ownership. It's been too many years with the exact same issues over and over.

You cannot trust the LUTs, you cannot trust the meter handling (and profiling), and you cannot trust the dE calculation.

(read this again, understand, prepare, and cross reference with free Argyll if u don't own CP or LS)

All of this has been busted a billion times, everybody on here who cross references (with other apps) knows this, for a decade. I'm not saying that every CM version has these issues, but SC have accumulated over the years a very complex piece of software (spaghetti code on top of spaghetti code, it's almost Lasagne - a dev reference, not good), that was never built properly (architecture wise) and they have no proper means of QA/QC.

For example, a very simple module like the "meter profiling" tool (it would be a "module" in proper architecture), would never ever fail again, if u put a simple unit test on it. This particular one is so freaking simple to test for on every new build. So is the standard dE calculation.

They don't do that. It is beyond amateurish, considering all of this has failed more times that anyone here can count.

Now, other cal apps also have issues, don't get me wrong and u can ask Steve how we get on his case when certain things aren't working as advertised, but because LS is in professional post-production the industry standard, he better haul ass when things don't work...

With CM, on every new release, 100 new bugs pop up, or old bugs... they have too many features, that they don't control properly... they built this thing like a kid in a candy store, who sees all these cal gimmicks/features that they want, but they don't know how to do the job (--> coding) properly...

all of this don't matter though, as long as a B8/C8 owner can actually LUT calibrate the freaking expensive LUT capable consumer OLED that they purchased.... ergo, we need a free LG upload app.

if CM gets their stuff together, lots of people will use it (especially for HDR cal etc), but I know the free LG upload app, will relieve them of some stress and some users here are pretty pissed to say the least...

u can see, Tyler doesn't even respond to half of the inquiries... because there is nothing to say, because his devs are already 3 weeks behind on baby stuff...

for example, the out-of-gamut issues: that took them what ? a month ? yeah, cause the $15/hr CM dev had no clue why/where... I guaran-freaking-tee u, LI would have fixed same day... but they know their code and they know what they're doing, ergo it is very quick for them to find and fix specific issues if u can tell them how to consistently re-create the issue...

nex example: the current blue/yellow deviation/distortion in the CM LUT.... exact same thing... a proper dev that specializes in color science would need 1 or 2 profiles that exhibit the issue and fix immediately... users have already provided this in this thread weeks ago...

AVS has all the threads/posts from the last 8 years... just read up on CM vs. LS vs. Argyll back in the day, it's a lot of fun, lots of talk, lots of drama... ;-)

same story though today..................

LG, let's do this !!!

We have to separate AutoCAL from what 3D LUT means/doing.

AutoCAL for Sony/Samsung/Panasonic/Sharp with CalMAN (using the same user controls that normal menu's have) is just an automated ‘manual calibration’, and Light Illusion has no interest in that, as it is very rare it provided as good a calibration as direct manual user calibration. As you have seen the 95% of the users are performing manual cal after the AutoCAL, calling them as 'Hybrid'; so its not AutoCAL anymore since its requires manual adjustments.

Light Illusion is only interested in accurate manual user calibration via the Free LightSpace DPS, or really accurate 3D LUT calibration, via a paid LightSpace license.

Automated calibration via a ‘AutoCAL’ process is not an improvement over a good manual calibration, and often inferior.

We have to separate what an automated 'manual calibration' means (called AutoCAL, so guesswork, taking 150-200 meter reads to do 21-Point Grayscale...your final results are random if you perform 3x AutoCAL's the results will not be the same.) from what 1D/3D LUT display characterization means (1 measurement per each color point, so this require deep color science to stuff to work as expected).

Have you performed any AutoCAL with Samsung to report some feedback for example? (Not extensive review, just 2 words)

You should probably also mention in your rant that you are also a Lightspace reseller. For transparency sake.

Transparency is a really good point that's why I suggest to correct the release notes of the latest beta and to inform the users (beta tester) that the LUT upload is not working.

Tyler I'm still waiting for a response from the support for two days now maybe you can check - thanks.

Tyler... careful dude.... be very nice, or I will put a real post up with ur history...

my post wasn't a rant, it was status quo. I was being very nice to CM, because as u should remember, I would have otherwise chosen very different words and pointed out a few other things...

u dudes almost had a class action lawsuit on ur asses, for all the false advertising u guys did... and then SC didn't pay the many people u owed money to... all the hardware/gear that u had on commission...

let's be clear: ure a dude who is the current face of the company here on AVS and elsewhere, so u're gonna get it - that is ur job... u chose that job (so don't complain), and u also choose daily how u represent the company and how u present urself. (think about the last sentence)

U definitely have improved ur public appearance since PortraitClosets took u on board, but buddy.... I've not forgotten what u've done when lunatic Derek was ur Boss... again: ur decisions.

So please... yes, I resell LS. And I push Argyll everywhere, as it's free. And CP: does it even exist any longer ? Just read my last post... b/c I wanna make very clear this is NOT about LS... I would love for CM to be perfect, so I wouldn't have to explain to LG why they need to provide an LG upload app....

U know why people buy LS left and right ? not cause they want it, not cause they need it... (99% of them had another solution already)

because CM disappoints/never delivers/always fails. THAT is the #1 reason.... unless u are in the top 1% like myself and work professionally in post-production, and u need all the other high-end LS features...

don't believe me ? ask anybody here in this thread that owns LS, why they have it. Go, do it.

then ask anybody who owns CM (except pro calibrator) why they have it.... Because of the features/gimmicks koolaid that u advertise with (shiny little toys)... or now, because of the B8/C8 access.

do I need to continue..... ?

Go talk ur devs, fix this freaking toilet of an app and be thankful for the thousands of AVS users who give u free feedback - errors u didn't care to check for - or simply ignored.

I know u didn't code this thing, but please don't pretend we all here just get up in the morning to "hate CM" when in actuality we pay ur freaking salary.......

Ur job is customer support.

Good ? Good.

Amen! Thanks very much buddy for this - Mike for president

My post worked like it should and I recived an answer from Tyler so just for tranceparency sake he said that the LUT upload will work with the public release of R2 we will see.

Good point John, but IMO that is a market division decision (my tongue wrapped on itself after I've re-read this sentence lol): the Koreans has market points dealing with CM? Cool, let's do it! Then they've surely asked the tech dept if and at which level that would be possible and the tech probably said "It doen't work properly, but we can do like our Japanese competitors (Panasonic) and open it up to CM just for GS and CMS. In fact, auto(manual)calibration on grayscale and CMS it "hurts" less than a bad LUT the panel and you can still tweak it manually to get better results.

Let's get back on topic. See the thread title.

Thanks.

It would be nice if this thread focused on issues, features, and recommendations for calibration.


IMO, resellers should identify themselves in their signature or profile.


I don't yet own an auto-calibration / LUT capable display, but I'd like to see this technology move forward.
LG and others are dipping their toe in the water and I don't blame them for wanting a controlled introduction with a single manufacturer.
That makes sense.


If Calman is not successful, LG and other may not expand the access to autocal/LUT features.


- Rich

CalMAN's Release notes has to been updated then, to 'Known issues' area at end, to say that this feature while at release notes its announced as feature its not really working. There no reason people don't follow this thread to loose their time, for transparency sake.

Maybe there needs to be a separate thread for LS vs calman. Or to alter this to calman ddc/autocal for lg sets. Some of the back and forth bickering pointing fingers at calman, or at lg has nothing directly to do with calibration and/or settings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I did calibrate a couple of Q9's. One manually and the 2nd with Autocal. It's hard to use Samsung as an example because the set is very unstable because you can't turn off the local dimming while calibrating. Personally, with that set, I thought that Autocal did an "OK" job because it would have taken way too much time, due to the instability of that set to get it where it needed to be manually. I agree there is no question that autocalibration of the user controls is not that helpful for an experienced calibrator. Now the Sony is a pretty stable set so it will be interesting to see what added value Autocal will provide in their solution. I'll hold my thoughts on this until I try one. Most of the time the CMS is pretty good and on some sets I wish I could tweak it a little so having access to even those controls is welcome assuming they work.

Miki, so everyone has their opinion and that's fine but to me, if I can even just get at the CMS controls via the DDC on the Sony, and assuming they work, that's something that everyone has wanted for a very long time with Sony. If you look at the A1E calibration thread, Ted, D-Nice and others and myself were comparing the Sony non-adjustable CMS to the adjustable LG, etc.. I even took Teds advice and ran the 25, 50, 75 and 100% scans which show more information. Very useful scans that I use since then thanks to Ted. Obviously it would have been better to see an implementation similar to LG but I guess we will have to wait and see what it looks like to judge how useful it will be.

Yep clearly I mentioned this in the opening post and since it's all been said, I hope we can get back on track. I sent Miki my raw 10,000 point, high luminance LUT and I asked him to give his thoughts on it some time today in an effort to point out where the LUT is, as others have done, and hopefully we will see some improvements in the next Betas. I now have some test patterns from Miki to better see the problems with the LUT so going forward i'll use them.

Alright, I'd unsubscribed but kept an eye on this thread since @bacon333 tagged me in a post.

Can we really clean this thread up and keep on topic? There's a lot of people giving others **** in here, and to be honest it's childish.

I get that you want to vent, but talking about someone's professionalism in a public forum isn't exactly professional either.

I don't know who half you guys are that are ranting back and forth, and I don't care, we're all just humans, none of you are better than anyone else.

This is the best forum on the internet for this topic of conversation but it's making me and others feel like what's the point, and it pushes me away from even thinking about trying other solutions, because you all sound like whiney kids right now.

If you want to vent your opinions on Calman, please do it in the Calman thread or elsewhere.

I also see a lot about Sony's new panels in here, which again isn't in the thread title.

I don't care if I get my account deleted or you give me **** back, I just wanted to vent because it's getting seriously old now.

Sincerely, a guy who knows relatively nothing about calibration, but wanted to learn more.

^^^
I updated the first post describing the goals of the thread to encompass discussing "general" discussion of CM Autocal on the Sony and or the Samsung as it compares to the implementation on the LG for "productive" discussion if needed.

Ok, back on topic. John (jrref) gently sent me his latest 3D Lut made with CM autocal to be "analyzed", it is a 10.000 points LUT. We had a nice chat about it and I'd like to thank him for his kindness and his open mind. I asked to John his file because I was interested to look at a LUT made by a pro with pro equipment.

Before he did a 3.000 points LUT that unfortunately got overwritten by the above LUT. But he sent me the related color checker.

Let's start... from the end: as usual (for all of us) he ran a color checker to verify on charts how good was his LUT.

This is the 10.000 pt color checker:


and this is his 3.000 pt color checker:


as you can see the 3.000 shows better average dE on the colors measured, but THAT yellow is oversaturated. When I saw these charts the first thought was "If the 10.000 pt run contains the same 3.000 pt of the previous run, why are they different?". Unfortunately, I don't know how scientifically justify that, so I don't have an answer to my question, Tyler or pro's here ( @D-Nice ?) surely got one.

Here is the 1D Lut track:


and here is the 3D LUT... the cube from different perspectives:



Over saturated yellows, non-linear cyan/magenta/yellow "zone"




Blue issue


Now different views:








...and finally two patch representations of what the TV owner will see after this calibration:

https://ibb.co/nj4tTz

https://ibb.co/nnk08z

Is it good? NO. Will the TV owner throw in the garbage his TV? NO.

The LUT indicates that the Yellow/Cyan/Magenta zone suffers, there's no linearity between points (sinusoidal tracks) and when a LUT or a part of it it's not linear it'll show issues in real content and yellows are still over saturated. What does it mean? Once again, it means banding, artifacts, posterization/solarization and other issues within that specific problematic zone. That doesn't mean that the customer will see an awful image, he'll still enjoy the movie and with OLED technology and its deep black the average user could be satisfied with OOTB PMs. There are already vibrant colors, deep blacks, high luminance... it's already a feast! But we are debating about calibration and color science, so we have to dig deeper, we can't be satisfied of the OOTB PM (especially on LG TV) or the CalMAN Autocalibrated LUT, there's a lot of space for improvement and I'm sure the guys at SpectraCal are aiming that and they'll reach it when they can...

In the meantime the discussion grows, but who thinks (STILL!) this is a war between LightSpace and CalMAN fans, well... he is far from the truth. Here, who bought a LightSpace license also got a CalMAN license, while it's not said that who bought a CalMAN license bought a LightSpace license (not yet, at least). So, please, stop thinking there should be a separated thread, this is not the CalMAN thread, this is LG C8 calibration thread, so THIS IS the "room" where confrontation MUST be kept. Because from confrontation we will improve, if you think you are already good... well... good for you, but only for you.

Cheers,
Miki

BlackJoker, Ironmike, ConnecTed, maybe you guys should be sending your complaints directly to LG instead of hijacking jrref's thread. You guys could start your own thread, "we hate CM buy LS instead thread" I'm sure I would read it, or you could make your criticism constructive. but the Rants have devolved to personal attacks with an agenda.

jrref, stay the course and lets get back to useful sharing of information. I personally have learned a great deal from this thread including from the people listed above.