2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 68 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Unfortunately, my partner in crime and owner of a professional 3D printer received a request of divorce from his wife. So the project has been put in pause. In the meantime I bought a basICColor Discus and realized a tube mask for it from a orange silicon pop corn box, the orange just matches the color of the Discus puck lol. So probably when the project will restart I’ll add also a mask for the Discus. Thanks for asking Royce! 😉
Sorry to hear about your friend's troubles. Marital problems suck.

I'm wondering if that orange color wouldn't pollute the readings. Unless, of course, you're lining it with the infamous black sock...

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post #2012 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 09:08 AM
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In “no contact” mode have you used a tube-frustum mask or you just let all the environment light polluting your measurements? No contact is always better if done in the proper way, there’s no doubt. The wider the area measured is the more effective and accurated the results are. Sure, it needs some more tools but it’s worth it.
It really depends on what meters you are using and size of there area being measured. And yes environment light is a factor, but just one of many.
For most of the folks posting in this thread they will be best served using contact mode with there i1D3 (C6) and Calman.

Even when you use a Jeti 1211 as reference meter and a Klein K10-A as read meter, using off screen mode isn't going to give you much of a difference. The neat thing about the K10-A for on screen mode is that you use a extension along with a rubber ring, backing up the meter that will give you the same area being measured as your Jeti reference meter area being measured off screen about 5 feet. This is just one example of the many factors involved.

jrref, traded emails with Ted 2 days ago, he is just busy.

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post #2013 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Sorry to hear about your friend's troubles. Marital problems suck. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]

I'm wondering if that orange color wouldn't pollute the readings. Unless, of course, you're lining it with the infamous black sock...
I used the infamous sock just upon the surface of the pop corn box that touches the screen. Of course the orange color would pollute the readings but I covered the inner surface with adhesive black velvet.
There you go, ladies (where?! Where!?) and gentlemen... The Genius Corn!

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post #2014 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
In “no contact” mode have you used a tube-frustum mask or you just let all the environment light polluting your measurements?
It was in a completely dark room, at night. No environment light.

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No contact is always better if done in the proper way, there’s no doubt. The wider the area measured is the more effective and accurated the results are. Sure, it needs some more tools but it’s worth it.
I tried very very hard and it didn't work out for me (this included setting the meter at the exact distance away from the screen that Tedddd kindly posted). Yes you're right about more tools, and a lot of hassle etc. I'm not saying I won't revisit it in the future, but for now it's contact mode all the way for me!

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post #2015 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I used the infamous sock just upon the surface of the pop corn box that touches the screen. Of course the orange color would pollute the readings but I covered the inner surface with adhesive black velvet.
There you go, ladies (where?! Where!?) and gentlemen... The Genius Corn!
You should patent and sell this!

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post #2016 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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So while we are talking about meters for a moment, I noticed that Spectracal is not selling the i1Pro2 any longer. I ordered a Jeti 1501 and then saw this. Do you think the i1 is having trouble or not as accurate reading the Quantum Dot panels? I'm assuming as technology advances and spectral energy is more focused a 5nm or better device is going to be needed.
Just curious, some day if we ever get to a planel where the spectral energy approaches a laser, how many nm device will we need to accurately measure a panel like that?

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post #2017 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
So while we are talking about meters for a moment, I noticed that Spectracal is not selling the i1Pro2 any longer. I ordered a Jeti 1501 and then saw this. Do you think the i1 is having trouble or not as accurate reading the Quantum Dot panels? I'm assuming as technology advances and spectral energy is more focused a 5nm or better device is going to be needed.
Just curious, some day if we ever get to a planel where the spectral energy approaches a laser, how many nm device will we need to accurately measure a panel like that?
Lasers are already being used in some projectors. I won't speculate on the dropping of the I1 Pro 2, because whatever I theorize will, of course, be wrong...

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post #2018 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 05:53 PM
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I tried very very hard and it didn't work out for me (this included setting the meter at the exact distance away from the screen that Tedddd kindly posted). Yes you're right about more tools, and a lot of hassle etc. I'm not saying I won't revisit it in the future, but for now it's contact mode all the way for me!
Mike, you only need to consider the distances Ted mentioned if you are trying to match the meter's "read" area when profiling. For myself, I set the meter only a few cm from the screen, turn out the lights, and fire away. I already have a great meter profile verified thanks to Ted's workflow, so I'm golden.

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post #2019 of 3130 Old 10-13-2018, 10:55 PM
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@fafrd and D-Nice are the CMS controls working correctly on the new sets? Is it possible to run autocal for the primary and secondary colors without producing artifacts?
Hi!

Didn´t see answer to that and seems this whole thread is only for AutoCal calibration?
Just ordered C8 and going to make some manual calibration at least to SDR, just wonder this same question about CMS and artifacts.
Is there own thread for manual calibration of 2018 LG OLEDs?

I have calibrated plasmas and LCDs but never OLED and also HDR is totally new for me and maby I should leave it, just measure ([email protected]) SDR and maby could do some manual improvements.

btw, it´s nice to see that here professionals says every set is unique, I remember days when lot of peoples copied settings from one set after 100 running in hours

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post #2020 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 01:00 AM
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@mrtickleuk Rolls-Royce said it right, cause i1D3 needs to be profiled at same spectro FOV then you can use it in contact, but I still suggest non contact. FCCM creation is the most delicate step of a calibration session. If you miss it or did it wrong you are wasting your time. IDMS (which is the reference methodology) has set some rules, among them the use of a tube-frustum mask to measure patches. You can do a really easy test to know scientifically if your room is really light-free: you can measure your black level in contact mode and then measure it in non contact. If the Y values are the same then your room is pitch black. If they are different, then you need a mask. @jrref John, it seems like in Italy they accept patent request only for new invention, a light mask wouldn’t considered so... sadly.
By the way, i1D3 is a fantastic cheap tool but not accurate in low luminance area, I see it more like a training probe than an efficient calibration tool. Don’t get me wrong, on older TV final results were better than OOTB, I don’t know if with these new TV, especially with Panasonic, it gives better or worst results from OOTB settings in precalibrated PM

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post #2021 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 01:34 AM
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@mrtickleuk Rolls-Royce said it right, cause i1D3 needs to be profiled at same spectro FOV then you can use it in contact, but I still suggest non contact.
@Rolls-Royce forgot that I don't have any way of "creating a profile" so it's all moot. I only have the meter. I'm not saying I won't revisit it in the future, but for now it's contact mode all the way for me!

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post #2022 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 03:59 AM
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If you don’t have a spectro you can do whatever you want 😄
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post #2023 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi!

Didn´t see answer to that and seems this whole thread is only for AutoCal calibration?
Just ordered C8 and going to make some manual calibration at least to SDR, just wonder this same question about CMS and artifacts.
Is there own thread for manual calibration of 2018 LG OLEDs?

I have calibrated plasmas and LCDs but never OLED and also HDR is totally new for me and maby I should leave it, just measure ([email protected]) SDR and maby could do some manual improvements.

btw, it´s nice to see that here professionals says every set is unique, I remember days when lot of peoples copied settings from one set after 100 running in hours
The CMS controls work but none are perfect, except maybe for the Panasonic, which means you need to make small adjustments. Any large adjustments increases the possibility of creating artifacts. If you need to make large CMS adjustments then something is probably not right with your set or something may not be configured properly. As always once you finish your calibration, look at some known content and test patterns to make sure you haven't created any banding and or artifacts.
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post #2024 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Concerning the conversation on profiling, I guess i'm kind of tired talking about this topic but after taking Ted's advice and doing a lot of checking with many panels at the store, I believe from my experience, there is enough panel variation that you want to profile your meter to every panel you calibrate. Sometimes you can get five panels very close then you get one or two very different. The problem is if you don't profile then you have no way of knowing. If you don't profile your meter and you have no sets to compare to or don't have the "magic" eyes then you probably won't know the difference. The "generic" Calman profiles for their C6 meters are better than nothing in my opinion.

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post #2025 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Concerning the conversation on profiling, I guess i'm kind of tired talking about this topic but after taking Ted's advice and doing a lot of checking with many panels at the store, I believe from my experience, there is enough panel variation that you want to profile your meter to every panel you calibrate. Sometimes you can get five panels very close then you get one or two very different. The problem is if you don't profile then you have no way of knowing. If you don't profile your meter and you have no sets to compare to or don't have the "magic" eyes then you probably won't know the difference.
Agreed.

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The "generic" Calman profiles for their C6 meters are better than nothing in my opinion.
Phew, I'm relieved to hear that, not least because the budget was blown out of the water by Calman + C6HDR2000 anyway
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post #2026 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 08:43 AM
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@Rolls-Royce forgot that I don't have any way of "creating a profile" so it's all moot. I only have the meter. I'm not saying I won't revisit it in the future, but for now it's contact mode all the way for me!
Actually, I didn't forget. Notice that I said "if", not "when"...

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post #2027 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 09:44 AM
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The "generic" Calman profiles for their C6 meters are better than nothing in my opinion.
Let’s talk in delta E language, what dE has “better than nothing” and on which display?
In my really humble opinion, we need to define what we want to do with our display/meter. Are we gonna play the “calbrator” game/hobby or are we gonna calibrate our TV? We will finish with totally different results, while both options have the same rules, in the first you can “play” with that rules and bend them to your needings/situation, the second option is for “rich” enthusiasts/pro fundamentalists. The actual and highly probable risk of the first option is that we’ll end up to have a TV farer from the reference from where it was when we started, the second will get us reach the goal. Once again, while it is effective to use xrite probes with plasma/LCD, with the latest OLED displays (especially Panasonic) using i1D3/i1 Pro 2 is playing a game/training. Sometimes they measure like Klein/Jeti sometimes you got a dE of 3 which is out of reference. As opposed to many, I’m really starting to think that while Autocal function might help the rookies, latest displays narrower spectrum delivered the ball definitely on who got the best gears AND knowledge, the pros. Sorry for the super OT, it was just a i1 Pro 2 owner’s vent 😄
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post #2028 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 10:23 AM
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So while we are talking about meters for a moment, I noticed that Spectracal is not selling the i1Pro2 any longer. I ordered a Jeti 1501 and then saw this. Do you think the i1 is having trouble or not as accurate reading the Quantum Dot panels? I'm assuming as technology advances and spectral energy is more focused a 5nm or better device is going to be needed.
Just curious, some day if we ever get to a planel where the spectral energy approaches a laser, how many nm device will we need to accurately measure a panel like that?
The only problem when using a Jeti is that with Klein's ChromaSurf you must enter the Jeti x,y and Y coordinates manually. You may want to use Jeti's LiVal and export the coordinates reading for manual entry in ChromaSurf. Because of the drift with the LG OLED I take 15 reading with the Jeti of each color (WRGB) and compare the coordinates to determine what coordinates repeat the most. I have found that doing it that way, when you check the pass/fail report of your meter profile you should pass more than fail.

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post #2029 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Let’s talk in delta E language, what dE has “better than nothing” and on which display?
In my really humble opinion, we need to define what we want to do with our display/meter. Are we gonna play the “calbrator” game/hobby or are we gonna calibrate our TV? We will finish with totally different results, while both options have the same rules, in the first you can “play” with that rules and bend them to your needings/situation, the second option is for “rich” enthusiasts/pro fundamentalists. The actual and highly probable risk of the first option is that we’ll end up to have a TV farer from the reference from where it was when we started, the second will get us reach the goal. Once again, while it is effective to use xrite probes with plasma/LCD, with the latest OLED displays (especially Panasonic) using i1D3/i1 Pro 2 is playing a game/training. Sometimes they measure like Klein/Jeti sometimes you got a dE of 3 which is out of reference. As opposed to many, I’m really starting to think that while Autocal function might help the rookies, latest displays narrower spectrum delivered the ball definitely on who got the best gears AND knowledge, the pros. Sorry for the super OT, it was just a i1 Pro 2 owner’s vent 😄
Attached is the report I got from Klein using my I1Pro 2. Granted its dated but still may help.

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post #2030 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 11:31 AM
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Attached is the report I got from Klein using my I1Pro 2. Granted its dated but still may help.



ss


Thanks for the great comparison which shows that the i1Pro is especially for OLED displays is a very good option. We have to keep in mind that not everyone owns a high-end spectro and in terms of price and accuracy its a good choice.
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post #2031 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 12:56 PM
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Thanks for the great comparison which shows that the i1Pro is especially for OLED displays is a very good option. We have to keep in mind that not everyone owns a high-end spectro and in terms of price and accuracy its a good choice.
I’d like to be positive as you but I’ll wait for the dE difference calculations that I’ll do soon on those values as some are pretty far from NIST tolerance.
Thank you @sillysally !

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post #2032 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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A lot of comments.
@SS, no problem becasue i only use Calman so profiling shouldn't be an issue with the Jeti.
@Miki , I understand, technically you are correct but for a home enthusiast who doesn't have the budget to get even an i1Pro2, i've found the generic profiles from calman were closer than my native C6, when i was usign it, without them. But you are 100% correct, the only way to get any kind of accuracy is to profile to a spectro, even the i1Pro2 can do a reasonable good job though not as accurate as a high end spectro for sure. This is why i said i was "tired" of talking about profiling becasue if you want any accuracy, you have to do it, no choice.

I think i mentioned that i profile every set i calibrate at the store becasue although many are very close, you always get some that are different and you will never know unless you profile and if you want consistent results that you can trace back to a "reference" you have to profile AND you need a workflow like the one Ted provides to make sure your profile is good, yikes

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post #2033 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 03:16 PM
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Concerning the conversation on profiling, I guess i'm kind of tired talking about this topic but after taking Ted's advice and doing a lot of checking with many panels at the store, I believe from my experience, there is enough panel variation that you want to profile your meter to every panel you calibrate. Sometimes you can get five panels very close then you get one or two very different. The problem is if you don't profile then you have no way of knowing. If you don't profile your meter and you have no sets to compare to or don't have the "magic" eyes then you probably won't know the difference. The "generic" Calman profiles for their C6 meters are better than nothing in my opinion.


There’s no major spectral variation in the same panels. Any small variation that you are seeing is dwarfed by the amount of uniformity problems in most TVs. So it’s kind of a moot point. It might just be variations in your i1Pro. When do you get your 1501? What is your testing methodology for claiming that?

Also the C6 EDRs (Emissive Display Reference) are not “generic” profiles. They are one nanometer spectral response measurements (From Konica Minolta CS2000) that are matched up with the individually profiled spectral response of the filters in each meter.

Tyler
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post #2034 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 03:37 PM
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Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression that a C6 was more accurate across a wide range of displays than the i1Pro2. The value of the i1Pro lying in consistent calibration across panels rather than accurate calibration of a single panel.
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post #2035 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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There’s no major spectral variation in the same panels. Any small variation that you are seeing is dwarfed by the amount of uniformity problems in most TVs. So it’s kind of a moot point. It might just be variations in your i1Pro. When do you get your 1501? What is your testing methodology for claiming that?

Also the C6 EDRs (Emissive Display Reference) are not “generic” profiles. They are one nanometer spectral response measurements (From Konica Minolta CS2000) that are matched up with the individually profiled spectral response of the filters in each meter.

Tyler
Sorry, I used the term "generic" profiles incorrectly. My point was using the EDRs, as you state, in the profile list that comes with Calman for the C6 worked reasonably well for me when I compared them to a profiled C6 using the i1Pro2 a while back so if you don't have anything to profile to, the C6 adds value in this respect where as some will claim differently. That said I've found panels where a profile taken with an i1Pro2 differed, for whatever reason, from other samples of the same type of panel. I did this experiment a while back, I noticed this mostly on the OLEDs, I don't have the data so this is my recollection of what I saw. My testing methodology was doing the profile then comparing the x,y,Y coordinates. Ted has a profiler verification calman workflow that he modified for me which automates and lists everything so it's easily compared. I'm supposed to get the Jeti in a couple of weeks and i'll keep track of the profiles on the sets I do at the store and we can take a look at them to see if they vary and by how much, no problem.

At the end of the day, for me, if you have a spectro to profile your meter to, it only takes a little extra effort to do it and insure you have the best and most accurate setup to start calibrating.

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post #2036 of 3130 Old 10-14-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Sorry, I used the term "generic" profiles incorrectly. My point was using the EDRs, as you state, in the profile list that comes with Calman for the C6 worked reasonably well for me when I compared them to a profiled C6 using the i1Pro2 a while back so if you don't have anything to profile to, the C6 adds value in this respect where as some will claim differently. That said I've found panels where a profile taken with an i1Pro2 differed, for whatever reason, from other samples of the same type of panel. I did this experiment a while back, I noticed this mostly on the OLEDs, I don't have the data so this is my recollection of what I saw. My testing methodology was doing the profile then comparing the x,y,Y coordinates. Ted has a profiler verification calman workflow that he modified for me which automates and lists everything so it's easily compared. I'm supposed to get the Jeti in a couple of weeks and i'll keep track of the profiles on the sets I do at the store and we can take a look at them to see if they vary and by how much, no problem.



At the end of the day, for me, if you have a spectro to profile your meter to, it only takes a little extra effort to do it and insure you have the best and most accurate setup to start calibrating.


My point is that there is more variation in how you have the meters arranged, the field of view, read to read variability, Than there are spectral differences between panels of the same TV. Also the uniformity difference on one panel is probably 10x or more larger deviation than that.

Hollywood studios don’t even create a new profile for each individual monitor. Just each panel type.

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^^^
Interesting and I agree there are a lot of variables, even temperature, which can effect the outcome. I guess at this point once i get the Jeti i'm going to save the profile data and over time see what the variations are and then take a look at the pros and cons again. I agree there are a lot of variables but i can do the profile so quickly that it's one less variable in the equation.

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post #2038 of 3130 Old 10-15-2018, 04:56 AM
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Below are my dE2000 calculations based on Klein data kindly provided by @sillysally . I used Bruce Justin Lindbloom's site, I hope the formulas there are correct

I invite everyone (who is capable) to check this calcs and, eventually, to correct them.



So, according to the above data (if it is correct) the only color NISTable is "Blue" (the only color that on Kuros is permanently out of reference... ah! The fate!). I would never proceed to calibrate my set if my profile (FCCM) verification will return these values. Unless, sillysally's i1 Pro 2 is one unlucky probe.

Ok, some of you might say/think that since it is below dE of 3 it is still imperceptible for the human eye... well not mine ...unfortunately, I can see the difference and you should have a dE of 0.0000 after calibration which is impossible on any display.

Is this the end of the probes for tramps (don't get offended, Jeti classifies its probes as "economic" so x-rites are "tramponomics" )? IMHO it is for displays already accurate OOTB like Panasonic OLEDs, where a calibration without reference meters will certainly make the PQ worse.

Does it make sense for a normal enthusiast to buy a CR300 for 16,000 $ instead of buying a bunch of 77" OLEDs?

What do you guys think about my thoughts?

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post #2039 of 3130 Old 10-15-2018, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sorry I brought this topic up

So from my personal and professional standpoint, I agree with Tyler and I agree with you Miki. Both have good points at opposite ends of the spectrum. As Tyler correctly points out, at there are so many variables that "perfect" calibration is not easily accomplished if at all but I also feel that you can take steps to get closer to perfection.

The steps taken and the equipment purchased really depends on you budget, if you are a home Enthusiast or a Professional calibrator. To try and put things into perspective, a home Enthusiast can get perfectly good results with meters such as the C6 and iD3 for example. ( I don't want to get into the argument over which is better here ). If you have a device such as a I1Pro2 to profile your meter, for example, even better. You are doing the calibration for yourself, your not comparing your TV to a reference or any other set and you are getting your TV in "good" alignment. There is no right or wrong here since you are doing "best effort" given your budget for yourself. On the other hand, if you are a professional, charging professional rates, then your customer's have expectations that go beyond the Home Enthusiast. At that point you are "expected" to spend the extra time getting the FOV, and all the other setup parameters as best you can and have purchased fairly expensive equipment along with your experience in the goal of producing superior results. In this situation, there are a lot of things you can do and purchase in an effort to make your calibration as close to perfect as you can and experience starts to play a larger role.

For me, every time i calibrate i try to do the best job i can even if it takes a little longer to profile and get the environment correct in an effort to get good repeatable results. Whether the extra time well spent or not is not relevant for me in my situation becasue i know i'm trying to make my calibrations as best as possible.

That said, i don't feel there is a right or wrong, since there are lots of other factors which determine your specific process.

I haven't been in the calibration "business" as long as some of the folks here but in talking with Dwayne, Ted, Miki, Tyler and others, you find that evey calibrator has their own process with their own "secret sauce" based on data and experience they have amassed and how they feel the process should be done to get the best results.

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post #2040 of 3130 Old 10-15-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Below are my dE2000 calculations based on Klein data kindly provided by @sillysally . I used Bruce Justin Lindbloom's site, I hope the formulas there are correct

I invite everyone (who is capable) to check this calcs and, eventually, to correct them.



So, according to the above data (if it is correct) the only color NISTable is "Blue" (the only color that on Kuros is permanently out of reference... ah! The fate!). I would never proceed to calibrate my set if my profile (FCCM) verification will return these values. Unless, sillysally's i1 Pro 2 is one unlucky probe.

Ok, some of you might say/think that since it is below dE of 3 it is still imperceptible for the human eye... well not mine ...unfortunately, I can see the difference and you should have a dE of 0.0000 after calibration which is impossible on any display.

Is this the end of the probes for tramps (don't get offended, Jeti classifies its probes as "economic" so x-rites are "tramponomics" )? IMHO it is for displays already accurate OOTB like Panasonic OLEDs, where a calibration without reference meters will certainly make the PQ worse.

Does it make sense for a normal enthusiast to buy a CR300 for 16,000 $ instead of buying a bunch of 77" OLEDs?

What do you guys think about my thoughts?
My I1Pro 2 was the first that was tested by Klein, so I can't say if it is better or worse than other I1Pro 2's. That said Luhr Jensen from Klein did say that my I1Pro2 was very good compared to the older I1Pro's.
What prompted me to contact Mr. Jensen was on my Kuro 151 the water (sea) color of blue never looked natural and same for the Panasonic plasma that followed the Kuro's. Other well equipped DIY's that also had the i1Pro/2 had the same issue.
On a side note, Klein paid for all shipping cost and of course there was no charge for there services.

ss

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