2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post
I have a question regarding the Calman autocal of the current gen TVs capable of that. I don't own one yet but hopefully soon. The question is if you do an autocal, is there a way to independently save that for future. Let us say you run the routine and you get a really good result. The next time you do that after a month or so it may not be that good. At that point, obviously you can choose to run it again or if you can save the file elsewhere, simply load the old one that worked well.


No there isn't such an option yet the only way right now is to take a screenshot of the DDC values I would say.
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post #182 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^
There is no backup process yet so the answer to your question is no.

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post #183 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 01:44 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. When using certain LUTs Calman does write a file. I thought with the new release and features I thought that might be one.
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post #184 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 02:12 PM
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Mee too, tried RC1 to Autocal a C8 Dolby Vision with a i1Display and the HDFury. Getting strange results in the 2-7% range, the algorithm does not converge, errors are getting larger from reading to reading or get stuck at a rather large value. Leads to posterization in the near black range. Followed the instructions with pattern insertion. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

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post #185 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
This is not accurate. The TV remaps 64 to 0 before going through the 3D LUT. So all LUT points are used.
The file which CalMAN generates for 3D LUT, has 64 as black.

If the display will remap 64 to 0, the 3D LUT correction file CM generates has to use 0 as black and not 64.

If you remap 64 to 0, means that you clip everything below 64, this means that if you adjust Brightness control (add brightness) from LG menu when you will have a 3D LUT from CM as active, you should no see any flashing bar when you look a Brightness Pattern below 16. But with C8 , when you will increase Brightness you see bars of below 16, so there no remapping, when you have 3D LUT from CM active.

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post #186 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
OK so i tried calibrating with RC1 and to start, the results look better to me from the last Beta since Tyler took D-Nice's and my suggestion to do additional Grayscale scans. Now Autocal does what they call a "rolling" calibration in the final scan. From what i can see, Autocal once it completes the first scan, goes back and looks at and re-calibrates IRE triplets, if that's the correct term. So for example it will "touch-up" IRE's 99,105, 109, then the next three down until it gets to zero. This seems to fix some of the spikes from the first scan giving a little better results. The other observation is by default, the DeltaE target is set to 0.5. This usually takes about 10 minutes to run. But if i set the target to 0.2, then i runs for about 30 minutes and while there is improvement, i'm not sure it's worth the extra time.

The only other issue i have is although the DeltaE errors are all under 0.5 with an average of around 0.2, there are still some noticable spikes and or dips in the gamma curve. Tyler indicated he was going to explain what we are seeing and i hope he does since while they are not large errors, they are still there.

Below are screen shots of the Technicolor calibration i did this morning. Please note that i opened up all scale on all the graphs to illustrate as much detail as possible. All default values, Gamma 1886. 42 pt gray scale and lightening LUT. DeltaE target at the default of 0.5. The whole calibration took around 30 minutes to complete everything. I also took the low stimulus scans that everyone wants to see and all i can say "it is what it is".

The last set of scans are from an Expert Bright PM calibration with Gamma 2.2. 42 pt grayscale and lightening LUT. Here the DeltaE target is set to 0.2 and the whole calibration took about 45 minutes, complete, not rushing.

One thing to keep in mind is that the PMs i used this morning are both Bright PMs and can be more challenging to calibrate. In conversations with D-Nice, he indicated that he is getting better results with the Darker PMs in the 100-150 nit range.

As far as the CMS sweep and color checker scans, although not reference montor quality when you add in all the details, any set where the CMS sweep and color checker DeltaE is at or below 1.0 is good in my opinion. Notice that there are essentially no spikes in the sweeps and or the color checker. I hope D-Nice can come up with an iRP setting that does better but doesn't take hours to run.

So next we will be waiting for D-Nice's indepth review with, i'm sure a whole lot more technical information.

My conclusion so far is RC1 is giving "better" results than the last Beta which is incouraging and i'm happy that some of our Beta feedback was considered
Impressive results!

I'm just curious about your choose of the peak luminance in SDR Autocal Lightning LUT 230/260 Nits... I live really happy using 130Nits with my Lightning LUT on my B6 with eecolor seriously I'm really surprised about this new release 2018 RC1 how good is working now. Thank you all for your efforts and everything you're reporting in this thread @D-Nice @jrref @WiFi-Spy @ConnecTEDDD

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post #187 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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So i recalibrated HDR custom using the 3x3LUT vs the lightening LUT and no posterization in content. whew!
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post #188 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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One thing i forgot to mention, when you autocal HDR, you can really see the peak luminance jump higher from what it measures out of the box. At least on my set. And this makes sense because you calibrate HDR in the panel's native mode like you do with DV and then from those measurements it interpolates the HDR parameters from what understand so you are "optimizing" for your specific panel's capabilities.

In watching some content tonight after using RC1, it's not a reference monitor but the PQ is very good. Overall there are some things Autocal can do better than i can manually and some things i can do manually better that it can so for me, for a consumer calibration, it's a "toss-up". I would still like to see or understand what some of the peaks and dips are and minimize them further without having to go in manually.

The one thing is can say is once you understand how to set up and operate Autocal, the results seem to be very consistent. One thing that is very important is to calibrate the darker PMs first and move on to the brighter ones. You also will have to let the panel cool off a little between the HDR and DV calibrations.

If i have to highlight any one result of Autocal it's the ability to bring out the near black detail without having to fool around with the brightness control. There is a little clipping but overall it looks very good in this one area.

Again i'm not trying to compare it to a reference monitor and it would be great if some of the "shortcomings" mentioned about the 3D LUTs were addressed.

Now all we need is a backup program or autocal will remain a "hobbyist" feature.
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post #189 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
One thing i forgot to mention, when you autocal HDR, you can really see the peak luminance jump higher from what it measures out of the box. At least on my set. And this makes sense because you calibrate HDR in the panel's native mode like you do with DV and then from those measurements it interpolates the HDR parameters from what understand so you are "optimizing" for your specific panel's capabilities.



In watching some content tonight after using RC1, it's not a reference monitor but the PQ is very good. Overall there are some things Autocal can do better than i can manually and some things i can do manually better that it can so for me, for a consumer calibration, it's a "toss-up". I would still like to see or understand what some of the peaks and dips are and minimize them further without having to go in manually.



The one thing is can say is once you understand how to set up and operate Autocal, the results seem to be very consistent. One thing that is very important is to calibrate the darker PMs first and move on to the brighter ones. You also will have to let the panel cool off a little between the HDR and DV calibrations.



If i have to highlight any one result of Autocal it's the ability to bring out the near black detail without having to fool around with the brightness control. There is a little clipping but overall it looks very good in this one area.



Again i'm not trying to compare it to a reference monitor and it would be great if some of the "shortcomings" mentioned about the 3D LUTs were addressed.



Now all we need is a backup program or autocal will remain a "hobbyist" feature.


Compared against a 2017, would you say the finite controls enabled with the lut calibration offer better picture refinement? Or is it equally as comparable to a manually well calibrated 2017? And I’m not talking numbers, I’m talking actual content?


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post #190 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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You can actually do a better calibration with the 2018 autocal and the DDC interface. It's not reference monitor quality but in my opinion, it's a much better interface than the old user controls which always had problems and limitations.

See my comments in the previous posts.
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post #191 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You can actually do a better calibration with the 2018 autocal and the DDC interface. It's not reference monitor quality but in my opinion, it's a much better interface than the old user controls which always had problems and limitations.



See my comments in the previous posts.


You should run a 10,000 point IRP LUT (100 nits)

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post #192 of 3757 Old 04-04-2018, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
One thing i forgot to mention, when you autocal HDR, you can really see the peak luminance jump higher from what it measures out of the box. At least on my set.
In the image 8481 from your post #173 it seems HDR peak luminance is around 660 nits or am I reading it wrong? That is about same level as in 2016 models.
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post #193 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 01:10 AM
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You should run a 10,000 point IRP LUT (100 nits)


In the past CalMAN always crashed when I tried more points than 4000.

10,000 point iRP LUT wouldn't be practical for most of the DIY users.

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post #194 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 01:12 AM
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Will Calman get an new LG OLED 2018 Meterprofile for the C6 Meter or does the old one for 2016 LG work good?
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post #195 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 01:13 AM
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Will Calman get an new LG OLED 2018 Meterprofile for the C6 Meter or does the old one for 2016 LG work good?


It's the same WOLED technology so no difference.
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post #196 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 01:15 AM
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So i recalibrated HDR custom using the 3x3LUT vs the lightening LUT and no posterization in content. whew!
Something to add generally, a 3x3 LUT is not a LUT, it's a only matrix.

And that is why it is not adding artifacts, as it is not doing any display volumetric calibration at all.

There more info to the section called 'Matrix or 3D LUT' here: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html

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post #197 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 03:51 AM
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It's the same WOLED technology so no difference.
Ok, I thought maybe because of the new subpixel design...
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post #198 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 04:45 AM
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In the past CalMAN always crashed when I tried more points than 4000.

10,000 point iRP LUT wouldn't be practical for most of the DIY users.
Unfortunately I’ve experienced the same. Nothing worse than seeing the LUT 98% complete and then the program crashes.
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post #199 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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In the image 8481 from your post #173 it seems HDR peak luminance is around 660 nits or am I reading it wrong? That is about same level as in 2016 models.
It's interesting because i re-ran the HDR calibration after posting these results, letting the screen cool down and doing a factory reset because i wanted to res-start everything and i got much better results. The peak was around 800 nits. I'll post the scans later.
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post #200 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:10 AM
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So are we thinking the 2018 LG has about 80 nits more (give or take) than the Sony's in HDR?

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post #201 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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With Autocal you need to be very careful and follow the workflow instructions exactly, in the proper sequence. So for example with HDR, you need to make sure your generator is in HDR mode and outputting HDR Before you do the DDC reset and always look for the Calibration Start message on the screen.

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post #202 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:13 AM
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In this scenario, would it not be easier, and cheaper, for someone to rent hardware/software and then they do it themselves with an instruction set? If they had questions, the rental company could offer technical support?
Would it work if the TV owner send to you (as a professional calibrator) correct readings of 100% WRGB patterns done with a rented reference spectro? This way you could create a correction matrix for your colorimeter on the same model/brand/size TV. Given that the customer did it all correctly, would this matrix be all that you need to have your own TV calibrated like it is the customer TV? In other words, would the results of this calibration be valid for the customer's TV?

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post #203 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:18 AM
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It's interesting because i re-ran the HDR calibration after posting these results, letting the screen cool down and doing a factory reset because i wanted to res-start everything and i got much better results. The peak was around 800 nits. I'll post the scans later.
After more testing, I’m starting to think it might be best to predefined the 100% measurement in AutoCal for HDR/DV since 100% fluctuates so much due to heat and power limiters.
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post #204 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:18 AM
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It's interesting because i re-ran the HDR calibration after posting these results, letting the screen cool down and doing a factory reset because i wanted to res-start everything and i got much better results. The peak was around 800 nits. I'll post the scans later.


I had the exact same experience with my old E6 in HDR mode even the difference between the two measurements are identical. When I first did some measurements in HDR Mode after I calibrated the SDR mode the peak was about 440 nits. Then I let cool down the panel some time remeasured the HDR Mode and the peak was around 680 nits.

Which Inseration values do you use for HDR John? I think they should be really aggressive like the ones CalMAN is suggesting every 5s 10% for 5s

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post #205 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
You should run a 10,000 point IRP LUT (100 nits)
I'm sure it will be better if it completes but usually when you calibrate a set you calibrate a dark mode, 100-150 nits, and a bright mode. I've been calibrating and testing a bright mode because of my viewing environment and I understand that D-Nice is "focusing" on Darker modes. With these OLEDs they calibrate easier with the darker PMs as we all know.

But while we are on the topic, can you help us understand what the gamma spikes and dips are at the top IREs? One thing i forgot to mention, once Autocal does it's initial scan, it goes back and does the "rolling" scan. In the second scan, it re-adjusts the IREs where the spikes or gamma dips are and sometimes makes them worse only in the top 105% and 109% IREs. BUT i can see that the overall DeltaE is reduced from these adjustments. Since Autocal uses DeltaE for the measurements, and it looks like the RGB balance and level look good, shouldn't the gamma get "better" and not "worse"?

Can you explain what we are seeing?

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post #206 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Would it work if the TV owner send to you (as a professional calibrator) correct readings of 100% WRGB patterns done with a rented reference spectro? This way you could create a correction matrix for your colorimeter on the same model/brand/size TV. Given that the customer did it all correctly, would this matrix be all that you need to have your own TV calibrated like it is the customer TV? In other words, would the results of this calibration be valid for the customer's TV?

Thanks in advance,
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I don’t understand your question. Can you rephrase because why would a customer send me XYZ matrix numbers from a rented reference spectro when I have a PR-670? Did you mean could a customer send me their rented/owned colormeter and I create a matrix with my PR-670?
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post #207 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:24 AM
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We understand the issue and are working towards a better solution for consumers. We are not ignoring this.

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Thank you Tyler. I'm sure MobileForge native app for ATV 4K (no mirroring from other iDevice), Amazon Fire TV 4k and LG App Store would be very very VERY welcome!
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post #208 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
So are we thinking the 2018 LG has about 80 nits more (give or take) than the Sony's in HDR?
My 55 measures 800 nits, D-Nice's 65 measures 850 nits if i remember in HDR. The Sony's usually measure around 680 to 712ish nits.

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post #209 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
I had the exact same experience with my old E6 in HDR mode even the difference between the two measurements are identical. When I first did some measurements in HDR Mode after I calibrated the SDR mode the peak was about 440 nits. Then I let cool down the panel some time remeasured the HDR Mode and the peak was around 680 nits.

Which Inseration values do you use for HDR John? I think they should be really aggressive like the ones CalMAN is suggesting every 5s 10% for 5s
So for autocal HDR i used the recommended workflow values, 5/5/15%

These insertion values can make a significant difference and i know from calibrating HDR manually you really can't leave a HDR bright patch up for more than 5 seconds and even at that it's pushing it if you are measuring a lot of patches.

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post #210 of 3757 Old 04-05-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm sure it will be better if it completes but usually when you calibrate a set you calibrate a dark mode, 100-150 nits, and a bright mode. I've been calibrating and testing a bright mode because of my viewing environment and I understand that D-Nice is "focusing" on Darker modes. With these OLEDs they calibrate easier with the darker PMs as we all know.
The target luminance for the LUT should be completely irrelevant. If you want to do a higher luminance LUT on WRGB OLEDs, you just have to know how to manage the additional heat.

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But while we are on the topic, can you help us understand what the gamma spikes and dips are at the top IREs? One thing i forgot to mention, once Autocal does it's initial scan, it goes back and does the "rolling" scan. In the second scan, it re-adjusts the IREs where the spikes or gamma dips are and sometimes makes them worse only in the top 105% and 109% IREs. BUT i can see that the overall DeltaE is reduced from these adjustments. Since Autocal uses DeltaE for the measurements, and it looks like the RGB balance and level look good, shouldn't the gamma get "better" and not "worse"?

Can you explain what we are seeing?
Gamma is dictated by the 100% measurement (but seems to be based on 109% in AutoCal????). We know that these displays are thermally unstable and will drift..... which means the longer the high luminance pattern is on screen, the more drift you will measure. You can test this by measuring 100% and then go back to 95 or 90% stimuli and measure in continuous mode. Watch how the the gamma shifts.

How to deal with such items is the “art” of calibrating WRGB OLED. Although possible, I would not expect AutoCal to improve upon this to equal or exceed what you can do yourself due to the numerous variables (if, then, else in basic coding lingo) involved. You’re better off manually correcting the spikes.

Last edited by D-Nice; 04-05-2018 at 06:38 AM.
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