2018 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 3235 Old 03-17-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
LightSpace is surely the best solution for LG TV and it also has more options than CM, like 1D/3D upload (therefore backup).


Plus they are working on a software platform to allow ddc with the lg tv so you won't even need calman to upload


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post #2762 of 3235 Old 03-19-2019, 11:23 AM
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Just picked up lightspace...it's gonna take me a while to digest a different software. I will give it to spectracal, their software is more intuitive with its step by step instructions. Thankfully there is a "how-to" for lightspace or else I would be all thumbs


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post #2763 of 3235 Old 03-19-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
LightSpace is surely the best solution for LG TV and it also has more options than CM, like 1D/3D upload (therefore backup).


You forgot to add that this is your opinion. How do you plan to calibrate Dolby Vision? Or HDR10?
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post #2764 of 3235 Old 03-19-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
You forgot to add that this is your opinion.
It happens his opinion to agree with all other people which have posted their results here in AVS about their experience with 3D LUT. Search entire thread and you will find all posts very easily.

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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
You forgot to add that this is your opinion. How do you plan to calibrate Dolby Vision? Or HDR10?
You forgot to say that for Dolby Vision Calibration you need to buy VideoForge Pro or Murideo Six-G, so to spend more money from the price of the entire TV cost, just to generate only the DV patterns.

You can do similar or better job by performing manual cal of Medium Color Temp in White Balance of SV menu, and later select Warm 1 in HDR10 and DV mode, so you will have reduced that way the RGB balance errors in both HDR10/DV. (you can use any free calibration software for that with just some HDR10 patterns, so zero cost at all).
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post #2765 of 3235 Old 03-19-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
It happens his opinion to agree with all other people which have posted their results here in AVS about their experience with 3D LUT. Search entire thread and you will find all posts very easily.



You forgot to say that for Dolby Vision Calibration you need to buy VideoForge Pro or Murideo Six-G, so to spend more money from the price of the entire TV cost, just to generate only the DV patterns.

You can do similar or better job by performing manual cal of Medium Color Temp in White Balance of SV menu, and later select Warm 1 in HDR10 and DV mode, so you will have reduced that way the RGB balance errors in both HDR10/DV. (you can use any free calibration software for that with just some HDR10 patterns, so zero cost at all).
Ted you lost me here, "You can do similar or better job by performing manual cal of Medium Color Temp in White Balance of SV menu, and later select Warm 1 in HDR10 and DV mode, so you will have reduced that way the RGB balance errors in both HDR10/DV. (you can use any free calibration software for that with just some HDR10 patterns, so zero cost at all)."

What are you saying?
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post #2766 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rswood View Post
Ted you lost me here, "You can do similar or better job by performing manual cal of Medium Color Temp in White Balance of SV menu, and later select Warm 1 in HDR10 and DV mode, so you will have reduced that way the RGB balance errors in both HDR10/DV. (you can use any free calibration software for that with just some HDR10 patterns, so zero cost at all)."

What are you saying?
The changes you will do to medium temp white balance preset of Service Menu (while you will display HDR10 patterns), they will affect the RGB balance of Warm 1 of normal menu, both HDR10/DV RGB balance will share that color temp and will be affected, so you pre-cal RGB balance in SM and then you select that color temp when you will watch HDR10/DV.

Factory DV color gamut tracking is good, grayscale RGB balance is off usually, doing the above you can improve DV RGB balance without having any DV pattern generator to verify the results, its the best you can do without spending a $.

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post #2767 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Wjboshart View Post
Plus they are working on a software platform to allow ddc with the lg tv so you won't even need calman to upload


This is the LG Template, its looking very good, just it will require a few more days of waiting for the instructions to be written, about how to connect with TV, the calibration steps etc.

That free LG Template for free LG Template for DeviceControl will enable DDC controls and 1D LUT and 3D LUT upload capabilities. (CalMAN don't offer 1D LUT upload).

Installing that user LG template to DeviceControl, it will provide the capability from anyone to use LG 2018 internal LUT capabilities without using CalMAN. That feature works also as a complete backup solution; something not possible using CalMAN, since CalMAN is not offering backup/upload of the 1D LUT values.

DeviceControl and instructions about how to install that user LG Template will be available shortly. It's free utility/template available for LightSpace users.

The LightSpace profiling procedure is very simple, initially you are taking a Quick Profile of Primary only measurement (81 patch measurement) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurement) and generating a colorspace conversion from that data, then you will export the 1D LUT and using DeviceControl and LG Template, you will upload that 1D LUT internally to the LG TV.

After that you will continue by taking cube volumetric measurements required for 3D LUT table generation and then export the 3D LUT and upload it also.

The dedicated thread for LG's and 3D LUT profiling for LightSpace users to AVSForum will be updated with instructions and recommendation of steps/settings.

Additionally, an important advantage having 1D LUT upload capability is that from one measurement run of Quick Profile of Primary only (81 patches) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurements) you can generate 1D LUT tables with different gamma exponent value. No wasted time when you want different target gamma exponent anymore, no more quesswork, calibrating one-by-one each point (zero color science, random results).

DeviceControl is a very powerful program, with many capabilities beyond managing PGenerator, such as the direct control of many Panasonic TVs, as well as Lumagen LUT Boxes, with open the capabilities to been added other display manufactures in the future also.
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post #2768 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


This is the LG Template, its looking very good, just it will require a few more days of waiting for the instructions to be written, about how to connect with TV, the calibration steps etc.

That free LG Template for free LG Template for DeviceControl will enable DDC controls and 1D LUT and 3D LUT upload capabilities. (CalMAN don't offer 1D LUT upload).

Installing that user LG template to DeviceControl, it will provide the capability from anyone to use LG 2018 internal LUT capabilities without using CalMAN. That feature works also as a complete backup solution; something not possible using CalMAN, since CalMAN is not offering backup/upload of the 1D LUT values.

DeviceControl and instructions about how to install that user LG Template will be available shortly. It's free utility/template available for LightSpace users.

The LightSpace profiling procedure is very simple, initially you are taking a Quick Profile of Primary only measurement (81 patch measurement) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurement) and generating a colorspace conversion from that data, then you will export the 1D LUT and using DeviceControl and LG Template, you will upload that 1D LUT internally to the LG TV.

After that you will continue by taking cube volumetric measurements required for 3D LUT table generation and then export the 3D LUT and upload it also.

The dedicated thread for LG's and 3D LUT profiling for LightSpace users to AVSForum will be updated with instructions and recommendation of steps/settings.

Additionally, an important advantage having 1D LUT upload capability is that from one measurement run of Quick Profile of Primary only (81 patches) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurements) you can generate 1D LUT tables with different gamma exponent value. No wasted time when you want different target gamma exponent anymore, no more quesswork, calibrating one-by-one each point (zero color science, random results).

DeviceControl is a very powerful program, with many capabilities beyond managing PGenerator, such as the direct control of many Panasonic TVs, as well as Lumagen LUT Boxes, with open the capabilities to been added other display manufactures in the future also.


I look forward to this coming out! I saw the media blip about it when I downloaded lightspace


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post #2769 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


This is the LG Template, its looking very good, just it will require a few more days of waiting for the instructions to be written, about how to connect with TV, the calibration steps etc.

That free LG Template for free LG Template for DeviceControl will enable DDC controls and 1D LUT and 3D LUT upload capabilities. (CalMAN don't offer 1D LUT upload).

Installing that user LG template to DeviceControl, it will provide the capability from anyone to use LG 2018 internal LUT capabilities without using CalMAN. That feature works also as a complete backup solution; something not possible using CalMAN, since CalMAN is not offering backup/upload of the 1D LUT values.

DeviceControl and instructions about how to install that user LG Template will be available shortly. It's free utility/template available for LightSpace users.

The LightSpace profiling procedure is very simple, initially you are taking a Quick Profile of Primary only measurement (81 patch measurement) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurement) and generating a colorspace conversion from that data, then you will export the 1D LUT and using DeviceControl and LG Template, you will upload that 1D LUT internally to the LG TV.

After that you will continue by taking cube volumetric measurements required for 3D LUT table generation and then export the 3D LUT and upload it also.

The dedicated thread for LG's and 3D LUT profiling for LightSpace users to AVSForum will be updated with instructions and recommendation of steps/settings.

Additionally, an important advantage having 1D LUT upload capability is that from one measurement run of Quick Profile of Primary only (81 patches) or Grayscale Large (36 patch measurements) you can generate 1D LUT tables with different gamma exponent value. No wasted time when you want different target gamma exponent anymore, no more quesswork, calibrating one-by-one each point (zero color science, random results).

DeviceControl is a very powerful program, with many capabilities beyond managing PGenerator, such as the direct control of many Panasonic TVs, as well as Lumagen LUT Boxes, with open the capabilities to been added other display manufactures in the future also.


I look forward to this TED!


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post #2770 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Wjboshart View Post
I look forward to this coming out! I saw the media blip about it when I downloaded lightspace


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This is a reverse engineered solution that is not guaranteed to work in the future FYI.

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post #2771 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 10:57 AM
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This is a reverse engineered solution that is not guaranteed to work in the future FYI.


But for 2018 television it should remain consistent. I understand if I were to buy future iterations of an lg oled things will change


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post #2772 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The changes you will do to medium temp white balance preset of Service Menu (while you will display HDR10 patterns), they will affect the RGB balance of Warm 1 of normal menu, both HDR10/DV RGB balance will share that color temp and will be affected, so you pre-cal RGB balance in SM and then you select that color temp when you will watch HDR10/DV.

Factory DV color gamut tracking is good, grayscale RGB balance is off usually, doing the above you can improve DV RGB balance without having any DV pattern generator to verify the results, its the best you can do without spending a $.
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post #2773 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 12:07 PM
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post #2774 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
This is a reverse engineered solution that is not guaranteed to work in the future FYI.
This is what is happening when you are trying to hide display capabilities from people who spend their money to get these displays and don't want to spend money on software which has issues for long time.
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post #2775 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 02:23 PM
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Monopolies and closed systems are never good for anyone.
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Monopolies and closed systems are never good for anyone.
Sure, they are great for the monopolist, private or public but not good for the consumer.

That said, those who have worked to create a new technology have a right to benefit from it.
Otherwise, there is no return on the investment. Consumers benefit from investment as well.

- Rich
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The changes you will do to medium temp white balance preset of Service Menu (while you will display HDR10 patterns), they will affect the RGB balance of Warm 1 of normal menu, both HDR10/DV RGB balance will share that color temp and will be affected, so you pre-cal RGB balance in SM and then you select that color temp when you will watch HDR10/DV.

Factory DV color gamut tracking is good, grayscale RGB balance is off usually, doing the above you can improve DV RGB balance without having any DV pattern generator to verify the results, its the best you can do without spending a $.
Can this method be applied to the 2017 model also?

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post #2778 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 02:35 PM
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Can this method be applied to the 2017 model also?
Yes, to 2016 also, which has locked RGB Balance controls when TV will enter to DV mode.

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post #2779 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 02:36 PM
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Yes, to 2016 also, which has locked RGB Balance controls when TV will enter to DV mode.
Is there a link for info to get to calibrate using the service menu? Thanks.

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Is there a link for info to get to calibrate using the service menu? Thanks.
You need to use a way to enter to Service Menu, see a link: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post54916980

When you take measurement, have the OSD menu closed.
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post #2781 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 02:50 PM
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Sure, they are great for the monopolist, private or public but not good for the consumer.

That said, those who have worked to create a new technology have a right to benefit from it.
Otherwise, there is no return on the investment. Consumers benefit from investment as well.

- Rich
I actually don't think they are good for the monopolist either. Obviously there has been a lot of problems which have not been resolved yet. Just look at the open source communities like, Linux and machine learning/deep learning and see how they are all thriving because most of the stuff is open and everyone, specially the enthusiasts have the chance to contribute and help enhance everything there.
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post #2782 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 02:52 PM
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I actually don't think they are good for the monopolist either. Obviously there has been a lot of problems which have not been resolved yet. Just look at the open source communities like, Linux and machine learning/deep learning and see how they are all thriving because most of the stuff is open and everyone, specially the enthusiasts have the chance to contribute and help enhance everything there.
Apple seems to be doing well, and it sure isn't "open source"...

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post #2783 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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Apple seems to be doing well, and it sure isn't "open source"...
Apple sells hardware though, mostly.
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post #2784 of 3235 Old 03-20-2019, 05:27 PM
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Apple sells hardware though, mostly.
True that. But they maintain a death grip on software as well as their hardware. They also strictly control pricing. Apple is about as far from open source as you can get.
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post #2785 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
LightSpace is surely the best solution for LG TV and it also has more options than CM, like 1D/3D upload (therefore backup).


You forgot to add that this is your opinion. How do you plan to calibrate Dolby Vision? Or HDR10?
I didn’t forget to add that because that is not an opinion: LightSpace (and DisplayCal) produces a better LUT correction than CM.
I don’t plan to calibrate HDR10/DV because those are bad jokes, especially on WOLED and its poor color volume at high luminance (above 300/400 nits). We should really wait for a display capable of 10.000 nits (therefore no tone mapping) and (at least) < 0,05 nits black level, to talk about HDR/DV advantages and accuracy. Right now is like watching TV with Dynamic Contrast ON, some might like it but it’s not accurate.

BTW, I missed you. Where have you been pal? &#x1f642;
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post #2786 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I didn’t forget to add that because that is not an opinion: LightSpace (and DisplayCal) produces a better LUT correction than CM.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56183576

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56559306

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I don’t plan to calibrate HDR10/DV because those are bad jokes, especially on WOLED and its poor color volume at high luminance (above 300/400 nits). We should really wait for a display capable of 10.000 nits (therefore no tone mapping) and (at least) < 0,05 nits black level, to talk about HDR/DV advantages and accuracy. Right now is like watching TV with Dynamic Contrast ON, some might like it but it’s not accurate.
HDR10/DV can never be calibrated for any WRGB OLED of any year/brand/model, due to low gamut: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56201380

...and huge drifting when panel is working at HDR10 mode: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56234908

LG 2018 are using 33p 1D + 33p 3D LUT for HDR10 also, but they can't be used because of these issues above, it doesn't matter what software you will use for LUT generation, just its impossible to create a valid volumetric correction.

For that reason CalMAN is using Matrix LUT calibration for HDR10 mode, where CalMAN measure 5 patches (Black, White, 100% Saturation with 100% Luminance of Red, Green, Blue) and from these measurements in creates a 3x3 matrix where its using a 33-Point LUT as contained (wrapper), zero volumetric calibration, so you calibrate only 100% Saturation (edges of gamut).

About DV calibration, after the grayscale, CalMAN takes 5 measurements (Black/White 100% Red/Green/Blue) and create a DV configuration file where inside with have your black/white nits level, the xy of your 3 primaries and a 3x3 transformation matrix for colorspace conversion to LMS colorspace.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57320220

The funny note is that to be able to calibrate DV, you will have to spend at least $1500 for a DV pattern generator, with so smart TVs where they can do real-time analysis of picture frame, can be controlled by the voice, its not available a button to their menu to convert incoming HDMI signal to DV or HDR10, or disable tone mapping, or 1D/3D LUT upload/backup like they do with TV channel list import/export using USB.

Seems that LG don't want do dominate the market, USB LUT upload will provide more sales, since people will be able to use whatever software they like for LUT generation.

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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #2787 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56183576

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56559306



HDR10/DV can never be calibrated for any WRGB OLED of any year/brand/model, due to low gamut: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56201380

...and huge drifting when panel is working at HDR10 mode: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56234908

LG 2018 are using 33p 1D + 33p 3D LUT for HDR10 also, but they can't be used because of these issues above, it doesn't matter what software you will use for LUT generation, just its impossible to create a valid volumetric correction.

For that reason CalMAN is using Matrix LUT calibration for HDR10 mode, where CalMAN measure 5 patches (Black, White, 100% Saturation with 100% Luminance of Red, Green, Blue) and from these measurements in creates a 3x3 matrix where its using a 33-Point LUT as contained (wrapper), zero volumetric calibration, so you calibrate only 100% Saturation (edges of gamut).

About DV calibration, after the grayscale, CalMAN takes 5 measurements (Black/White 100% Red/Green/Blue) and create a DV configuration file where inside with have your black/white nits level, the xy of your 3 primaries and a 3x3 transformation matrix for colorspace conversion to LMS colorspace.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57320220

The funny note is that to be able to calibrate DV, you will have to spend at least $1500 for a DV pattern generator, with so smart TVs where they can do real-time analysis of picture frame, can be controlled by the voice, its not available a button to their menu to convert incoming HDMI signal to DV or HDR10, or disable tone mapping, or 1D/3D LUT upload/backup like they do with TV channel list import/export using USB.

Seems that LG don't want do dominate the market, USB LUT upload will provide more sales, since people will be able to use whatever software they like for LUT generation.

It’s obvious you think that anything that lightspace can’t do , is not worth doing right?
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post #2788 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It’s obvious you think that anything that lightspace can’t do , is not worth doing right?
Customers are not fool anymore, they can understand well what is happening beyond marketing tricks, misinformation and poor documentation.

Somewhere you have to say that CalMAN that for DV calibration with LG 2018 you need VideoForge PRO at least (or Murideo Six-G), while with 2017 LG it can work with at bit-perfect Intel GPU using HD Fury Integral (which has been discontinued, and basically the whole integration of CalMAN with HD Fury is broken for a lot of months already, so currently is not working, even if you have all the required gear, where you can find instructions about how to perform it only in AVSForum: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...libration.html).

Also there no instruction to any CalMAN DV workflow, which will say to increase the color slider after the calibration procedure ...from 50 to 75-80 range also, since post-calibration will suffer from huge de-saturation. Is that a working solution? ...where you ignore all calculations of AutoCAL and you adjust Color Slider under the colors errors will be reduced to levels below 100 nits and clipped to higher levels?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56590012

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56605224

..and because post calibration results were not looking good after DV AutoCAL (while with default factory DV file the colors didn't had such issues), CalMAN added a new chart, which removed luminance errors from calculated errors, for calibrations to be able to present to customers that post calibration is better than without calibration: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56031628

If that means 'working solution' for you, its another story.

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Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 03-21-2019 at 08:30 AM.
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post #2789 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It’s obvious you think that anything that lightspace can’t do , is not worth doing right?
What LightSpace doesn't do it’s not worth because it would never be accurate, so its only a waste of time/$$$ trying to do something that is impossible to be fixed due to WRGB issues with color volume.

You can do manual cal with any calibration software and it will not suffer from under-saturation issues: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57774966

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post #2790 of 3235 Old 03-21-2019, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Ted, I'm not trying to challenge your experience and knowledge but from another perspective, I've done many side by side comparisons of HDR and DV on LG OLEDs, calibrated with Calman vs OOTB, and most of the time, the calibrated PQ is noticeably better in many of the PQ aspects we talk about all the time than non-calibrated. I've had John Singletary (johnsingletaryimaging) help with the comparisons to get an visual expert's opinion as well for verification. As to Micki's comment, I'm not trying to support the formats but if you do watch them, you want them calibrated. I've never seen or heard of anyone complaining that the PQ was worse after calibration if it was done properly and if a consumer is going to pay for a professional calibration, they are expecting HDR and DV.

So regardless of the technical details behind the calibration, good, no good, expensive, etc, the PQ is still noticeably improved to the casual observer when HDR and DV is calibrated with the Calman-LG process given the current limitations. Maybe at some point the calibration process will improve to satisfy all the items you have pointed out.
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