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post #1 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Noob Calibration help: 80-100% high DE

I posted this in the M-Series Vizio section but thought it'd be better suited for the Calibration section. I recently picked up an M65-E0 and since I have access to an X-Rite i1 Pro rev E I thought I would self-educate myself on calibration. So I have spent that last few weeks in these forms, YT, and other areas to learn a bit. Last night I did my first "practice" run and things went relatively smooth. I did find a strange issue that I am nowhere near qualified enough to understand.

I was running through the 11 point white balance grayscale settings and was getting amazing results dialing everything in. Delta E from 5-70% were less <.50. Unfortunately, 80%-100% were way out of whack. Delta E in range of 3-4 and for the life of me I was unable to get it much better than that. Any reason why? Is the meter not accurate at that range?

Setup:
*Calman 5
*AVS HD 709 full-screen size test patterns via a USB Thumb Drive on the side USB input.
*Custom mode with all motion/cinema/backlight/auto etc settings disabled.
*i1 Pro rev E tripod mounted and positioned center.


It was fun calibrating. Maybe I'll poke around again this evening.

I know there is undoubtedly thousands of bits of missing information or causes, but did not know where to start.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
I posted this in the M-Series Vizio section but thought it'd be better suited for the Calibration section. I recently picked up an M65-E0 and since I have access to an X-Rite i1 Pro rev E I thought I would self-educate myself on calibration. So I have spent that last few weeks in these forms, YT, and other areas to learn a bit. Last night I did my first "practice" run and things went relatively smooth. I did find a strange issue that I am nowhere near qualified enough to understand.

I was running through the 11 point white balance grayscale settings and was getting amazing results dialing everything in. Delta E from 5-70% were less <.50. Unfortunately, 80%-100% were way out of whack. Delta E in range of 3-4 and for the life of me I was unable to get it much better than that. Any reason why? Is the meter not accurate at that range?

Setup:
*Calman 5
*AVS HD 709 full-screen size test patterns via a USB Thumb Drive on the side USB input.
*Custom mode with all motion/cinema/backlight/auto etc settings disabled.
*i1 Pro rev E tripod mounted and positioned center.


It was fun calibrating. Maybe I'll poke around again this evening.

I know there is undoubtedly thousands of bits of missing information or causes, but did not know where to start.

Thanks in advance.
You should start over. This time start your white balance with offset/gain.

Starting with gain(high end grayscale) balance RGB to 70%, 80%, or 100%. Depending on how it effects the average DE. Most of the time I balance 100%.

Follow up with offset(low end grayscale) doing the exact same thing, but you will target 20% or 30%.

As a rule of thumb it's best to make cuts from these values and try to avoid adjusting green. Especially for offset. Any incremental adjustments to offset will raise your black levels.

Go back and forth until they are both stable. After this, go to grayscale and start from 100% and work your way down. Repeat until you are satisfied. You should be able to get your average DE below 0.3 easily
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post #3 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
You should start over. This time start your white balance with offset/gain.

Starting with gain(high end grayscale) balance RGB to 70%, 80%, or 100%. Depending on how it effects the average DE. Most of the time I balance 100%.

Follow up with offset(low end grayscale) doing the exact same thing, but you will target 20% or 30%.

As a rule of thumb it's best to make cuts from these values and try to avoid adjusting green. Especially for offset. Any incremental adjustments to offset will raise your black levels.

Go back and forth until they are both stable. After this, go to grayscale and start from 100% and work your way down. Repeat until you are satisfied. You should be able to get your average DE below 0.3 easily
Thank you for such a quick reply. I appreciate it.

About half of what you said makes sense to my very basic understandings, the other half I'll need clarification on.

My set does have the ability to adjust to an 11 point scale individually adjusting +/- RGB (probably already knew that though). Are you saying to start with 100% White test pattern and adjust the RGB sliders for 100% (leaving G default) in hopes of getting a low dE (<2 for example), and then same with 20/30% target? My set doesn’t have RGBLowEnd (B/R) or RGBHighEnd (B/R) like my old plasma does.

Then after I get 100/20 dialed in, start back at 100 and work my way down to 5% adjusting the RGB (leaving G default)?

I’ll be re-reading through the dummies guide again.
*https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-dummies.html*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...378850&thumb=1
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post #4 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
Thank you for such a quick reply. I appreciate it.

About half of what you said makes sense to my very basic understandings, the other half I'll need clarification on.

My set does have the ability to adjust to an 11 point scale individually adjusting +/- RGB (probably already knew that though). Are you saying to start with 100% White test pattern and adjust the RGB sliders for 100% (leaving G default) in hopes of getting a low dE (<2 for example), and then same with 20/30% target? My set doesn’t have RGBLowEnd (B/R) or RGBHighEnd (B/R) like my old plasma does.

Then after I get 100/20 dialed in, start back at 100 and work my way down to 5% adjusting the RGB (leaving G default)?

I’ll be re-reading through the dummies guide again.
*https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-dummies.html*
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...378850&thumb=1
When I say adjust 100%, I mean target 100% with your gain control. Look for gain in the CMS.

Offset and gain are used to balance the grayscale on the low and top end. 11pt grayscale adjustments are to fine tune the grayscale at individual points.
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post #5 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
I was running through the 11 point white balance grayscale settings and was getting amazing results dialing everything in. Delta E from 5-70% were less <.50. Unfortunately, 80%-100% were way out of whack. Delta E in range of 3-4 and for the life of me I was unable to get it much better than that. Any reason why? Is the meter not accurate at that range?
What happened specifically in the 80-100% range? If G is too high, you will have to reduce it (instead of trying to raise R and B).
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post #6 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
When I say adjust 100%, I mean target 100% with your gain control. Look for gain in the CMS.

Offset and gain are used to balance the grayscale on the low and top end. 11pt grayscale adjustments are to fine-tune the grayscale at individual points.
Okay, I think it makes sense now. Please reference my attached image, are you referring to Offset/Gain in the "Color Tuner" section?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...378862&thumb=1

Thanks again,
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post #7 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
Okay, I think it makes sense now. Please reference my attached image, are you referring to Offset/Gain in the "Color Tuner" section?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...378862&thumb=1

Thanks again,
Yes
Offset / Gain first
11point grayscale second
Hue/Saturation/Brightness last
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post #8 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What happened specifically in the 80-100% range? If G is too high, you will have to reduce it (instead of trying to raise R and B).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...378898&thumb=1
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post #9 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
Also make sure you are using the correct meter mode. Otherwise nothing is accurate.
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post #10 of 15 Old 03-22-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
With that kind of response, the dE would be way more tha 3-4. Doe the white look completely off to your eyes? If not, it may indicate a meter overload; try reducing the backlight level and see if that makes a difference.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 03-22-2018 at 11:23 AM.
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-23-2018, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
With that kind of response, the dE would be way more tha 3-4. Doe the white look completely off to your eyes? If not, it may indicate a meter overload; try reducing the backlight level and see if that makes a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Also make sure you are using the correct meter mode. Otherwise, nothing is accurate.
Thank you for your replies and offering to help. I had one last night with the meter so I gave it another try utilizing your information. This time I used the MobileForge pattern generator via a FireStick connected through my Xbox One. I also did notice my panel brightness was very high so I lowered that down to 'reference' levels. Overall the process was a lot of fun and I think I could have got more from if I had more time. I haven't had a lot of time to watch the TV post calibration, so I'm hoping to watch some material on it tonight and see how it appeals to my eyes.

Take a look at reports. Anything stick out at you? How does it look?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...379272&thumb=1

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...379270&thumb=1

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...379268&thumb=1

Thanks again.
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-23-2018, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SnkEyez95 View Post
Anything stick out at you? How does it look?
I'm glad you made improvements. It's hard to look at the results objectively without the post calibration adjustments. List all of your adjustments and I will look at it.
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post #13 of 15 Old 03-23-2018, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad you made improvements. It's hard to look at the results objectively without the post-calibration adjustments. List all of your adjustments and I will look at it.
Makes sense. Thanks again.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eeasp89171...hotos.zip?dl=0
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post #14 of 15 Old 03-23-2018, 05:17 PM
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A few things.

I recommend using your fire stick directly connected to the display and not the input of your Xbox. The way you are doing it now might produce errors. I personally don't trust the fire stick as I did have one, but it produced errors. I verified it with my dedicated TPG. Some will argue that it is bit perfect, but I don't believe all units are identical.
The great thing about running patterns from a thumb drive directly connected to your display is you will have bit perfect playback. It's slow, but it's the best way to verify your calibration. There are free pattern suites, but there are some paid ones that cost around $5-$10 for an entire suite. I personally recommend Ted's lightspace CMS disc and/or R.Masciola's disc.

Contrast. In almost all cases using the calibrated/calibrated dark preset on the display, you will likely not need to make significant or any changes to Contrast and/or Brightness. Reducing contrast to 44 seems extreme and is likely causing errors. Adjusting Contrast and Brightness should be checked using patterns and are the only adjustments made by eye. Using a Brightness/Contrast test pattern you can adjust them properly. You will not need to adjust them if you can visibly see values 17-234 while 16 remains reference black and 235 remains reference white. This is the first step before doing offset/gain/grayscale.

Lastly gamma. You have 2.1 gamma selected in your smartcast profile, but it looks like you are targeting gamma 2.2 in calibration. I recommend you target 2.2 and make sure the gamma selected on your profile is 2.2 as well. If you don't, then this will create errors.

Gamma 2.2 is good for dark room viewing if you use a lower backlight profile like 10-30.
Gamma 2.1 is better for ambient light viewing if you use a higher backlight profile like 40-100.

I recommend for calibration you target 80-120nits using gamma 2.2 and then make your daylight profile with 2.1 after. They will both use the same calibration table.

Last edited by skschatzman; 03-24-2018 at 06:24 AM.
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post #15 of 15 Old 05-30-2019, 09:01 AM
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I have the same TV and trying to calibrate. Until I get a colorimeter, I tried with the THX app via casting, which presents patterns online. But when I tried adjusting, the Picture settings had no effect.

I then tried a USB with downloaded 4K pattern images; sticked on the side, the patterns looked great, but same issue. The settings didn't change the image.

Now, here you are calibrating via USB, so...is there a particular setting to check, is it the files...?

Curiously, using HD patterns from youtube, the settings worked. Could it be something about using images instead of video?
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