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post #31 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Are you using the same HDMI TV Input for that test of each device?

Your only difference is at 5% Gray, can you test the near black with more detail? You can use the 6-Point Near Black workflow page of Ted's Pre-Calibration Tools Workflow:



Also try to perform the same test by loading the pattern to your TV USB (check also that it has the same settings with the HDMI Input you are using)

So now using the same HDMI port & the results are the same. I dont understand why this is happening.










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post #32 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 01:55 PM
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So now using the same HDMI port & the results are the same. I dont understand why this is happening.
Whats your Panasonic BD-Player output colorspace settings?

Have you checked by loading the video patterns from your TV USB?

What TV are you using?
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post #33 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Whats your Panasonic BD-Player output colorspace settings?

Have you checked by loading the video patterns from your TV USB?

What TV are you using?

In the Panasonic menu I have YCbCr (Automatic selected)


Here is what the menu looks like in the player settings:





Not tried the USB yet.


The TV is a Sony A1E.


I dont know if these help:











I tried using the USB drive directly in the TV but the crappy Sony firmware wont play it.

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post #34 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 02:34 PM
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I tried using the USB drive directly in the TV but the crappy Sony firmware wont play it.
Check MP4 or MKV.

Also set FireStick to output 24p: https://forum.xda-developers.com/fir...utton-t3364815

and RGB colorspace output (if you have selection for colorspace).
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post #35 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Check MP4 or MKV.

Also set FireStick to output 24p: https://forum.xda-developers.com/fir...utton-t3364815

and RGB colorspace output (if you have selection for colorspace).

No selection for colourspace & I tried the method in that link for switching to 24p but it just tries to factory reset my Fire TV.
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post #36 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
No selection for colourspace & I tried the method in that link for switching to 24p but it just tries to factory reset my Fire TV.
Check if setting the player to YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 makes any difference.

Also if you have a secondary player connect it and see what is happening with other player.

If you have different TV to another room, connect the Panasonic Player + FireStick/MobileForge there, to see if you have same difference in 5% Gray.
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post #37 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Check if setting the player to YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 makes any difference.

Also if you have a secondary player connect it and see what is happening with other player.

If you have different TV to another room, connect the Panasonic Player + FireStick/MobileForge there, to see if you have same difference in 5% Gray.

So I got the playback direct from the USB stick on the TV working & to me it appears to produce the same result:









I guess this means that adjusting the setting in the player to YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 & trying another player is pointless as two source devices are producing the same results?

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post #38 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So I got the playback direct from the USB stick on the TV working & to me it appears to produce the same result:

I guess this means that adjusting the setting in the player to YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 is pointless as two source devices are producing the same results?
Correct, skip YCbCr test, now check if you have same results by using the patterns from another TV USB vs. FireStick.

Does your signal from FireStick goes thru any AVR first?
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post #39 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Correct, skip YCbCr test, now check if you have same results by using the patterns from another TV USB vs. FireStick.

Does your signal from FireStick goes thru any AVR first?

No both the bluray & the Fire TV go straight to the TV.


I just connected the Fire TV & the bluray player back up to seperate HDMI ports & redid the 21 point grayscale & to me they now look the same!






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post #40 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Redid it again & got the same result, very strange.








I am presuming then that I should be using the "expand video to PC levels" switch on?
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post #41 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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So I turned everything off last night & this morning turned everything back on. After letting the the panel warm up for a couple of hours the 5% error is back.


I have tried turning on YCbCr 4:2:2 & it is still the same result.


So I hooked up my old Sony BDP-S5500 blu-ray player & took the 5% measurement again & I get the same reading that I got from my Panasonic blu-ray player.


So both blu-ray players are outputting the same so I am going to say that the output from FireTV is at fault.


I have an Nvidia Shield TV so I loaded MobileForge onto it & took the 21 point grayscale again & all seems good to me:











So it appears that either my FireTV is faulty or there is a bug in the MobileForge software when running on a Gen2 FireTV.


I presume now I am ready to begin creating my meter profile now with "Expand video levels to PC" turned on? Do I need turn turn the "Low Light Handler" back on?



A little off topic but Ted in a pitch black room with treated walls & floor what do you calibrate peak white to? As the room is very dark I am finding the TV very bright at levels recommended on the forums.


I also want to calibrate a day mode for when I have the black out blinds open in a separate picture mode, where should I be aiming for with peak white with a good amount of ambient light? No light will directly be shining on the screen.

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post #42 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Went ahead & attempted to profile my meter & got these results:








Still have to much error with red which others have reported over on my thread on the Spectracal forum. One user suggests "30 cm distance for id3 and 39 cm for i1Pro2" so I thought I would give it a try. Here are the results:








Is this a good meter profile?

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post #43 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 09:10 AM
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Is this a good meter profile?
At first glance, I'd say so, but what are green, blue, and white like? They also have to be within 0.001 on x and y and either 2% or 4% (I forget which) on Y. All four must be within those parameters.
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post #44 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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At first glance, I'd say so, but what are green, blue, and white like? They also have to be within 0.001 on x and y and either 2% or 4% (I forget which) on Y. All four must be within those parameters.

Are these the correct screen grabs?








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post #45 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 11:33 AM
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Yep, they look like the right ones. You're good!
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post #46 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep, they look like the right ones. You're good!

I screwed up, I accidentally deleted the profile


Did another run, can you tell me if this is any better?












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post #47 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 01:16 PM
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It looks about the same. White is not quite as good as the previous one in terms of dE, but still eminently usable. I would go with what you have.
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post #48 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks about the same. White is not quite as good as the previous one in terms of dE, but still eminently usable. I would go with what you have.

Many thanks for your help @Rolls-Royce just been trying different settings & trying to get the meters pointing the the exact same part of the screen with the laser pointer.


I dont think I can get it better thou & from what people have told me OLED change a lot depending on what has been displayed before taking measurements. I have been using the built in screensaver between measurements but I dont know if this is a good idea or not.


Here is my last attempt but if I am reading this right its worst than the last run I posted:









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post #49 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have began calibration & started by checking for clipping using the dynamic range test & I am hard clipping at 100% white.


If I turn the "Expand video to PC levels" off the clipping goes away. But if I have this setting set to off wont my calibration be inaccurate? Isn't that what we was checking for with the 21 point grayscale measurements?
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post #50 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So I turned everything off last night & this morning turned everything back on. After letting the the panel warm up for a couple of hours the 5% error is back.

I have tried turning on YCbCr 4:2:2 & it is still the same result.

So I hooked up my old Sony BDP-S5500 blu-ray player & took the 5% measurement again & I get the same reading that I got from my Panasonic blu-ray player.

So both blu-ray players are outputting the same so I am going to say that the output from FireTV is at fault.
Hi Adam, after your large setting, you have tested virtually everything, since your both stand-alone players have agreement, then FireStick with MobileForge for your Sony A1E its not a accurate patch generation solution for you.

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I have an Nvidia Shield TV so I loaded MobileForge onto it & took the 21 point grayscale again & all seems good to me:

So it appears that either my FireTV is faulty or there is a bug in the MobileForge software when running on a Gen2 FireTV.

I presume now I am ready to begin creating my meter profile now with "Expand video levels to PC" turned on? Do I need turn turn the "Low Light Handler" back on?
Looks like you have agreement with Shield for Grayscale (with expanded to PC Levels), but test for gamut colors agreement also to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
A little off topic but Ted in a pitch black room with treated walls & floor what do you calibrate peak white to? As the room is very dark I am finding the TV very bright at levels recommended on the forums.

For Dark room, lights off, use 100 nits, they use the same peak output during SDR mastering also.

I also want to calibrate a day mode for when I have the black out blinds open in a separate picture mode, where should I be aiming for with peak white with a good amount of ambient light? No light will directly be shining on the screen.
This is related with how much lights and windows etc. For Day/Bright room, you can test 200 nits and see how it goes and if its dimmed go for 300 nits.
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post #51 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam, after your large setting, you have tested virtually everything, since your both stand-alone players have agreement, then FireStick with MobileForge for your Sony A1E its not a accurate patch generation solution for you.



Looks like you have agreement with Shield for Grayscale (with expanded to PC Levels), but test for gamut colors agreement also to be sure.



This is related with how much lights and windows etc. You can test 200 nits and see how it goes and if its dimmed go for 300 nits.

Thanks for all the info Ted much appreciated.


So 200 nits for the pitch black room?



I dont know if you saw my last post but I am getting clipping with the "Expand video to PC levels" turned off & it goes away when turned off. I dont see any other way off stopping the clipping either.
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post #52 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Went ahead & attempted to profile my meter & got these results:

Still have to much error with red which others have reported over on my thread on the Spectracal forum. One user suggests "30 cm distance for id3 and 39 cm for i1Pro2" so I thought I would give it a try. Here are the results:

Is this a good meter profile?
It's recommended from other user here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56288874

According to your posted verification data's its helping the additional distance, and the meter correction table is very good.



To be able to view xyY data per color from each meter, (reference vs. profiled comparison), each of the layout pages need to have selected the same color from each meter slider.

So when you have Blue selected from each page slider, it will be visible data for blue only to compare.

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post #53 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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Thanks for all the info Ted much appreciated.

So 200 nits for the pitch black room?
No no, I was talking for day modes, 200/300 nits recommendation. For night/dark room 100 nits its the target peak, its about how SDR movies are mastered.

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post #54 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So I have began calibration & started by checking for clipping using the dynamic range test & I am hard clipping at 100% white.

If I turn the "Expand video to PC levels" off the clipping goes away. But if I have this setting set to off wont my calibration be inaccurate? Isn't that what we was checking for with the 21 point grayscale measurements?
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I dont know if you saw my last post but I am getting clipping with the "Expand video to PC levels" turned off & it goes away when turned off. I dont see any other way off stopping the clipping either.
Using Mobile Forge, all patterns can be generated within 16-235 range, so you can't use it to measure dynamic range up to 109%, because it will clip everything from 235 to 254 to 235.

For that reason the recommendation is to use calibration disks to perform contrast/brightness and dynamic range test, then compare if you have agreement between calibration disk vs. MobileForge, and then use MobileForge for patch generation of any triplet within 16-235 range.
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post #55 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
No no, I was talking for day modes, 200/300 nits recommendation. For night/dark room 100 nits its the target peak, its about how SDR movies are mastered.

I think I have ran the what you asked me two, the 4 point saturation & it seems I have another problem:












I guess because these are not the same something is incorrect?


I ran with the same settings as what I was using on the 21 point grayscale measurements.
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post #56 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:17 PM
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I think I have ran the what you asked me two, the 4 point saturation & it seems I have another problem:

I guess because these are not the same something is incorrect?

I ran with the same settings as what I was using on the 21 point grayscale measurements.
Shield with MobileForge is known that is inaccurate for gamut (the same inaccurancy is happening with ChromaCast and gamut patches also, while in grayscale is fine, there issues with AppleTV also), see the links at the bottom of that post, results from other users with Shield: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56467030

Looks like you have to return to calibrating with patterns from your blu-ray player, at least you checked and found that for your setup FireStick/Shield with Mobile Forge is not working, you can imagine how thousand users never spend a 1-2 minutes to run these tests, and live to the darkness of calibrating in a virtual 'perfect' world, but errors will be added when they will watch movies from their actual movie playback players.
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post #57 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Shield with MobileForge is known that is inaccurate for gamut (the same inaccurancy is happening with ChromaCast and gamut patches also, while in grayscale is fine, there issues with AppleTV also), see the links at the bottom of that post, results from other users with Shield: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56467030

Looks like you have to return to calibrating with patterns from your blu-ray player, at least you checked and found that for your setup FireStick/Shield with Mobile Forge is not working, you can imagine how thousand users never spend a 1-2 minutes to run these tests, and live to the darkness of calibrating in a virtual 'perfect' world, but errors will be added when they will watch movies from their actual movie playback players.

So if I understand right the I can use the shield to calibrate my grayscale but not the CMS? Does this issue invalidate my meter profile then?



If so I should be good as the A1E has no CMS controls. I just cant check the CMS after calibrating grayscale.



I guess all Fire TV devices are effected? I was going to get the Gen 3 Fire TV as I currently have a Gen 2 but if they are all the same then its not worth it.


I have a Lumagen Radiance 2021 so I guess I could use that as a pattern generator? I have the serial to USB lead to connect it to my PC. I just guess I need to make sure its outputting the same as my blu-ray player.

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-18-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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post #58 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So if I understand right the I can use the shield to calibrate my grayscale but not the CMS? Does this issue invalidate my meter profile then?

If so I should be good as the A1E has no CMS controls. I just cant check the CMS after calibrating grayscale.
Yes, you can use it for grayscale only, but your meter profiling will be not good, use calibration disk for meter profile patches.

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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I guess all Fire TV devices are effected? I was going to get the Gen 3 Fire TV as I currently have a Gen 2 but if they are all the same then its not worth it.
I have no idea if something changed to OS of FireStick or to MobileForge or if the problem related with your specific Sony A1E. Contact SpectraCAL to ask some for some help, they have analysers to see if the digital output is correct, ask to perform that test if they have the Gen2.

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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I have a Lumagen Radiance 2021 so I guess I could use that as a pattern generator? I have the serial to USB lead to connect it to my PC. I just guess I need to make sure its outputting the same as my blu-ray player.
Then use Lumagen Radiance 2021 for patch generation, set output to YCbCr 4:2:2, with that setting only the generated patches are bit-perfect, with any other selection they are +-1 8bit value off (randomly, when you move the cursor of digital analyser inside to a patch window of a solid color for example), I have measured the digital levels of all modes, only YCbCr 4:2:2 is perfect.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #59 of 88 Old 07-18-2018, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, you can use it for grayscale only, but your meter profiling will be not good, use calibration disk for meter profile patches.



I have no idea if something changed to OS of FireStick or to MobileForge or if the problem related with your specific Sony A1E. Contact SpectraCAL to ask some for some help, they have analysers to see if the digital output is correct, ask to perform that test if they have the Gen2.



Then use Lumagen Radiance 2021 for patch generation, set output to YCbCr 4:2:2, with that setting only the generated patches are bit-perfect, with any other selection they are +-1 8bit value off (randomly, when you move the cursor of digital analyser inside to a patch window of a solid color for example), I have measured the digital levels of all modes, only YCbCr 4:2:2 is perfect.

Thanks for all your help Ted & Rolls-Royce would have never got this far without your help. I will get the Lumagen out tomorrow then as I will have to redo all the meter profile as well. Back to square one I guess



Hopefully everything works as intended this time, fingers crossed


I guess checking the Lumagen by doing the same tests as we did with the Fire TV is the way to go comparing it against the Blu-ray player to be safe. Then go ahead & profile.


I guess I really should be routing this through my AVR as that will be in the chain when I use my blu-ray player? I guess if it is doing its job properly & just passing the signal through it should not effect calibration?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-18-2018 at 04:50 PM.
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post #60 of 88 Old 07-19-2018, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, you can use it for grayscale only, but your meter profiling will be not good, use calibration disk for meter profile patches.



I have no idea if something changed to OS of FireStick or to MobileForge or if the problem related with your specific Sony A1E. Contact SpectraCAL to ask some for some help, they have analysers to see if the digital output is correct, ask to perform that test if they have the Gen2.



Then use Lumagen Radiance 2021 for patch generation, set output to YCbCr 4:2:2, with that setting only the generated patches are bit-perfect, with any other selection they are +-1 8bit value off (randomly, when you move the cursor of digital analyser inside to a patch window of a solid color for example), I have measured the digital levels of all modes, only YCbCr 4:2:2 is perfect.

So got the Lumagen set-up & have performed the same tests to validate the output, just checking are these are OK?













I re-took all the measurements again as I am unhappy with the differences, I thought it was because I have my blinds open so ambient light may have had an effect on them but it seems not as they are the same with the blinds closed.


I have also made sure that YCbCr 4:2:2 is enabled on the output of both the Blu-ray player & the Lumagen also have been using the same HDMI input port on the TV for both source devices so any TV picture settings cannot be creating a problem.

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 07-19-2018 at 07:42 AM.
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