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post #1 of 88 Old 05-05-2018, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Meter Profiling Help

I tried to get to the bottom of if I was profiling my meter correctly a few months ago but have not had the time since to sort it out until now so I did a little reading of a few threads on AVS on the subject & am a little more confused then when I started.

So my equipment is an i1Pro for my reference meter & an i1 Display for my profiled meter & the display is a Sony A1 OLED.

I am currently doing a multi pass measurements & have all settings at their defaults & am using Ted's Pre Calibration workflow to check the profile for accuracy.

I have just done another run after warming the meters up for 30 minuets & the TV for 3 hours.

Here are the co-ordinates of both the meters:



I have read/been told that doing non contact measurements may gain a more accurate meter profile by increasing the F.O.V of the meters also Ted last time said to try different exposure & sync mode settings but am unsure when looking at the figures if I am making it better or worst.

Any advice is appreciated as I dont want to go ahead & calibrate if I have got this part wrong as it will invalidate all my work.

Adam
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post #2 of 88 Old 05-06-2018, 06:26 AM
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post #3 of 88 Old 05-06-2018, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell
If you got a difference of +/- 0.001 on x,y readings and +/- 1,5% on Y readings between reference and profiled, you have a good correction matrix.
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post #4 of 88 Old 05-06-2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
If you got a difference of +/- 0.001 on x,y readings and +/- 1,5% on Y readings between reference and profiled, you have a good correction matrix.
Green is just out of limits in y, but it's close enough.
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post #5 of 88 Old 05-09-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I am currently doing a multi pass measurements & have all settings at their defaults & am using Ted's Pre Calibration workflow to check the profile for accuracy.

I have just done another run after warming the meters up for 30 minuets & the TV for 3 hours.

Here are the co-ordinates of both the meters:



I have read/been told that doing non contact measurements may gain a more accurate meter profile by increasing the F.O.V of the meters also Ted last time said to try different exposure & sync mode settings but am unsure when looking at the figures if I am making it better or worst.

Any advice is appreciated as I dont want to go ahead & calibrate if I have got this part wrong as it will invalidate all my work.

Adam
Hi Adam,

According your data, are these Y numbers nits or fL? What pattern size are you using?

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post #6 of 88 Old 05-09-2018, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam,

According your data, are these Y numbers nits or fL? What pattern size are you using?
Pattern size would be an 18% window & whatever is the default for the Y numbers. I have closed the workflow now so cant check but I never adjusted any settings in regard to that.

Got my second boom mic stand so I will give this new method a try & post my results.
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post #7 of 88 Old 05-10-2018, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Pattern size would be an 18% window & whatever is the default for the Y numbers. I have closed the workflow now so cant check but I never adjusted any settings in regard to that.

Got my second boom mic stand so I will give this new method a try & post my results.
Hi Adam, try this:

Pre-calibrate the panel's 100% White with i1PRO, set luminance units to nits and see to have 100nits. Now with 18% Windows and 155 nits White, this can trigger ABL circuit, we don't need this to happen.



Then use my disk chapter which is 11.11% Windows, the CalMAN Chapter for meter profiling where its auto-changing the WRGB patches per 10 seconds. Start the chapter and let it flow...no need to press next when you will finish with one patch, so patches will be displayed for exact same time to your display for both meters.

Set source delay to 1 second and then select to prompt for pattern change, start the disk chapter and when the pattern will change press OK for the meter to read.
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post #8 of 88 Old 05-11-2018, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam, try this:

Pre-calibrate the panel's 100% White with i1PRO, set luminance units to nits and see to have 100nits. Now with 18% Windows and 155 nits White, this can trigger ABL circuit, we don't need this to happen.



Then use my disk chapter which is 11.11% Windows, the CalMAN Chapter for meter profiling where its auto-changing the WRGB patches per 10 seconds. Start the chapter and let it flow...no need to press next when you will finish with one patch, so patches will be displayed for exact same time to your display for both meters.

Set source delay to 1 second and then select to prompt for pattern change, start the disk chapter and when the pattern will change press OK for the meter to read.

I understand about 100% white not being above 155 nits as to not trigger the ABL. I know on this set setting the peak luminance setting to low or off will not trigger the ABL.

The second part I am confused, am I to use a blu-ray disk player to playback your disk? I have not burned the data to the disc yet so have no experience with how it is layed out.

Also I am unsure if I purchased your disc or not as I am unable to find the download link in my email.

I have been using the CalMAN work flow to check the meter profile.

If I just play a chapter on the disk what will prompt the PC to start taking measurements?

Last edited by AdamAttewell; 05-11-2018 at 03:15 AM.
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post #9 of 88 Old 05-12-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I understand about 100% white not being above 155 nits as to not trigger the ABL. I know on this set setting the peak luminance setting to low or off will not trigger the ABL.

The second part I am confused, am I to use a blu-ray disk player to playback your disk? I have not burned the data to the disc yet so have no experience with how it is layed out.

Also I am unsure if I purchased your disc or not as I am unable to find the download link in my email.

I have been using the CalMAN work flow to check the meter profile.

If I just play a chapter on the disk what will prompt the PC to start taking measurements?
Hi Adam,

See what version of my disk you own.

If you have the Blu-Ray Digital ISO or Blu-Ray Copy, select from your player menu the Pre-Calibration Tools, then Meter Setup... and you will see the Meter Profiling Chapter.



If you have the Media Files Version, then go to that folder: Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk 1.1 (MP4 Media Files)\01. Pre-Calibration Tools\02. Meter Setup.

Before starting your measurements for Meter Profiling, enable the software to prompt for pattern change:



...when you will start the Meter Profiling Chapter, after the initial 5 seconds of pattern info and 5 seconds countdown, you will need to press OK when you will see each patch (W,R,G,B) displayed to your screen. The patches will autochange per 10 seconds automatically, no need to use any remote control.


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post #10 of 88 Old 05-13-2018, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam,

See what version of my disk you own.

If you have the Blu-Ray Digital ISO or Blu-Ray Copy, select from your player menu the Pre-Calibration Tools, then Meter Setup... and you will see the Meter Profiling Chapter.



If you have the Media Files Version, then go to that folder: Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk 1.1 (MP4 Media Files)\01. Pre-Calibration Tools\02. Meter Setup.

Before starting your measurements for Meter Profiling, enable the software to prompt for pattern change:



...when you will start the Meter Profiling Chapter, after the initial 5 seconds of pattern info and 5 seconds countdown, you will need to press OK when you will see each patch (W,R,G,B) displayed to your screen. The patches will autochange per 10 seconds automatically, no need to use any remote control.


I have the media files version of you calibration disk but until this point I have been using an Amazon Fire TV with SpectraCal's MobileForge as my pattern generator when performing meter profiling.


Isn't using MobileForge the same as manually displaying the patterns with the disk?
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post #11 of 88 Old 05-13-2018, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I have the media files version of you calibration disk but until this point I have been using an Amazon Fire TV with SpectraCal's MobileForge as my pattern generator when performing meter profiling.


Isn't using MobileForge the same as manually displaying the patterns with the disk?
Hi Adam, what device you used with Mobile Forge? MobileForge is just a software generator, it doesn't guarantee to your that you have correct RGB triplet output, it's unknown what the device will do to its output when it will take command from MobileForge to generate patterns.

Not all devices have accurate output, for example Chromecast is adding a lot of errors to gamut measurements (from the conversion of RGB -> YCbCr), FireStick/TV is the most accurate option for CalMAN.

FireStick outputs RGB signal and it's looking your display's EDID to decide what levels to display; 16-235 or 0-255.

Because the end-user don't know what it will happen with each TV model, CalMAN has one setting to enable/disable expanding Video to PC Levels, for some displays this need to be enabled, for others it need to be disabled.

To find out which setting is correct for your current display it to compare a grayscale run from your BD-Player or Media Player you use to playback movies and compare the grayscale readings you get from this option enabled/disabled; see your peak black level/ peak white readings also to have agreement.

You can see there how off your measurements can be with wrong settings: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...&t=5869#p39542

Also before starting any calibration you have to use a calibration disk to check/set your contrast/brightness/sharpness and check color clipping also.

FireStick when it's been used to generate patterns for video levels is compressing 0-255 to 16-235, so it can generate any RGB Triplet combination between 16-235 range, not 0-15 or 236-254.

All below 16 steps (1-15 are becoming 16 and the all above 235 (236-254) steps are becoming 235, so it's impossible to set contrast and not able to check if you have correctly setup your black level without lifting/clipping your black or near black.

Setting Contrast is a problem also, since users can't see when they have above reference white clipping or the above reference white levels have neutral shade or pink-ish, green-ish etc..

You will still need a calibration disk to set or check Contrast/Brightness in a setup that you will use FireTV/FireStick as a pattern generator.

It's more accurate approach to use a calibration disk for pre-calibration settings and then use later for the color patch measurements the MobileForge.

If your actual player is shifting the colors to it's output due to it's internal video processing or colorspace conversion and you can't match the measurements you have with any external patch generation then you have to calibrate with patterns with a calibration disk from your player, to correct/count these errors the player is introducing to your calibration adjustments decisions.

If you have confirmed from testing that the MobileForge solution you are using is matching the output of your player (stand-alone players can have accurate YCbCr output), then you can use MobileForge as patch generation and the calibration disk for pre-calibration and visual post-verification of color-ramps/clipping etc.

Pay attention to all these when you are using software pattern generation: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56121138
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post #12 of 88 Old 05-15-2018, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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@ConnecTEDDD


I am using an Amazon Fire TV Gen 2 (Not stick) running MobileForge to display patterns.


I found out the hard way then when connecting CalMan to MobileForge that the "expand video levels to PC levels" is by default selected/activated. I now make sure that this option is deactivated before proceeding.


But if I understand correctly from your post you say this maybe incorrect for my display?



To check which option is correct for my display I need to do a grayscale sweep with a calibration disk & my bluray player as the pattern generator & then another two gray scale sweeps with MobileForge/FireTV as the pattern generator, one with the "expand video levels to PC levels" enabled & another with the option disabled.



Then compare the results & pick the option that matched the sweep from the blu-ray player/calibration disk.


Is this correct?
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post #13 of 88 Old 05-15-2018, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
@ConnecTEDDD

I am using an Amazon Fire TV Gen 2 (Not stick) running MobileForge to display patterns.

I found out the hard way then when connecting CalMan to MobileForge that the "expand video levels to PC levels" is by default selected/activated. I now make sure that this option is deactivated before proceeding.

But if I understand correctly from your post you say this maybe incorrect for my display?

To check which option is correct for my display I need to do a grayscale sweep with a calibration disk & my bluray player as the pattern generator & then another two gray scale sweeps with MobileForge/FireTV as the pattern generator, one with the "expand video levels to PC levels" enabled & another with the option disabled.

Then compare the results & pick the option that matched the sweep from the blu-ray player/calibration disk.

Is this correct?
Hi Adam,

You have understand it correctly.

Set your blu-ray player to output YCbCr (so to have to its most accurate output), and take with my disk grayscale and saturation saturation sweep (or colorchecker if you like).

Then do the same 2 times with MobileForge, set pattern size 11, APL 0, Window pattern, one run with ticked the expansion of levels and another run for unticked.

Pay attention to the luminance readings of Black and 100% White also.

Then compare the results.

You You can use the 21-Point Grayscale page of my workflow:



To collect the data and evaluate later looking the charts/graphs and decide which one is matching better your reference (blu-ray+Ted's disk), you can create new pages inside a layout page:



Click the '+' many times to open new pages.....and then enter to Design Mode (Alt+D) to change the names for each page (Blu-Ray, MobileForge with Expand, MobileForge without Expand):



So you can measure when you are ready with these changes all the modes you want to measure.....

If you can't enter Design mode....from CalMAN 2017 R2 release, design mode has been disabled by default for all CalMAN Enthusiast users.

When any home user (only) wants it, it will be provided a free design mode add-on license, send email to SpectraCal asking for that, you can see there why it's been disabled by default: CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion

When you will have Design Mode, and you will do the changes in Design Mode, all your data will be saved normally without problem.
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post #14 of 88 Old 05-16-2018, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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@ConnecTEDDD


Thanks for the conformation, looks like I am going to be busy over the weekend checking this out. I will let you know how I get on.


Thanks again


Adam
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post #15 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam,

You have understand it correctly.

Set your blu-ray player to output YCbCr (so to have to its most accurate output), and take with my disk grayscale and saturation saturation sweep (or colorchecker if you like).

Then do the same 2 times with MobileForge, set pattern size 11, APL 0, Window pattern, one run with ticked the expansion of levels and another run for unticked.

Pay attention to the luminance readings of Black and 100% White also.

Then compare the results.

You You can use the 21-Point Grayscale page of my workflow:



To collect the data and evaluate later looking the charts/graphs and decide which one is matching better your reference (blu-ray+Ted's disk), you can create new pages inside a layout page:



Click the '+' many times to open new pages.....and then enter to Design Mode (Alt+D) to change the names for each page (Blu-Ray, MobileForge with Expand, MobileForge without Expand):



So you can measure when you are ready with these changes all the modes you want to measure.....

If you can't enter Design mode....from CalMAN 2017 R2 release, design mode has been disabled by default for all CalMAN Enthusiast users.

When any home user (only) wants it, it will be provided a free design mode add-on license, send email to SpectraCal asking for that, you can see there why it's been disabled by default: CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion

When you will have Design Mode, and you will do the changes in Design Mode, all your data will be saved normally without problem.

So I followed your instructions & am not sure which setting I should use.


I have taken screen grabs but I am not sure if these are of any help:









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post #16 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 09:40 AM
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So I followed your instructions & am not sure which setting I should use.
Hi Adam,

The expand to PC levels is the correct one, just re-read the 5% Gray from my disk (probably with pausing the pattern) becasue seems that your meter settings required more than 10 seconds to read it or something other went wrong, so this is throwing off your average gamma when you compare these 2 grayscale runs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Adam,

The expand to PC levels is the correct one, just re-read the 5% Gray from my disk (probably with pausing the pattern) becasue seems that your meter settings required more than 10 seconds to read it or something other went wrong, so this is throwing off your average gamma when you compare these 2 grayscale runs.

I am using my i1 Pro to take these measurements is that OK?

Are you referring to the "video to PC levels" run?


I presume the 5% grey reading that is wrong is from the Blu-ray player run?
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I am using my i1 Pro to take these measurements is that OK?
Better to use the Colorimeter i1Display PRO, since we need to see what is your black level also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Are you referring to the "video to PC levels" run?
Yes, this once match Ted's Disk from your player.
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Adam, its better to use the 21-Point Grayscale from Color Comparator Comparisons workflow, because you see there the black level reading also:



Take also 4-Point Saturation Run to see if you the colors are matching also.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Adam, its better to use the 21-Point Grayscale from Color Comparator Comparisons workflow, because you see there the black level reading also:



Take also 4-Point Saturation Run to see if you the colors are matching also.

So I did what you said & did the 21 point grayscale using the Color Comparator Comparisons workflow with the i1 D3, here is what I got:








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post #21 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 10:41 AM
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So I did what you said & did the 21 point grayscale using the Color Comparator Comparisons workflow with the i1 D3, here is what I got:
Ok, now the 5% Grey via Mobile Forgw with PC Levels expanded not measured well. What meter settings are you using and what delay before each patch read?
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post #22 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Ok, now the 5% Grey via Mobile Forgw with PC Levels expanded not measured well. What meter settings are you using and what delay before each patch read?

Are these the settings you are referring too?




I remeasured the 5% on both & got the same results too.

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post #23 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 11:28 AM
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Are these the settings you are referring too?



I remeasured the 5% on both & got the same results too.
Ok, you have 1 sec delay before each meter read, its ok, what about your meter settings, post a screenshot of the i1Display PRO panel of CalMAN.

To have 11% window, select Window Size: ''User defined'' , then the 11% you have selected will be generated, to match the window pattern size of Ted's disk.
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post #24 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Ok, you have 1 sec delay before each meter read, its ok, what about your meter settings, post a screenshot of the i1Display PRO panel of CalMAN.

To have 11% window, select Window Size: ''User defined'' , then the 11% you have selected will be generated, to match the window pattern size of Ted's disk.


I have updated my last post with meter settings.


I see what you mean about "user defined" in the CalMAN I guess I will have to re-run all the measurements? Takes a long time to do it with the blu-ray player & all 21 points.

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post #25 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 11:41 AM
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I have updated my last post with meter settings.

I am using a USB flash drive plugged into my Panasonic UB-700 to use your patterns so I am unsure if I can select the 11% window or not. I am just playing the 21 point grayscale file.
Ted's pattern windows are 11.11%, and when you want to compare with a pattern generation solution (like FireStick/MobileForge) you are using, you have to set to display the same patch window also (11%).

Disable the low light handler and re-read only 5% Gray from each pattern solution.
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post #26 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Ted's pattern windows are 11.11%, and when you want to compare with a pattern generation solution (like FireStick/MobileForge) you are using, you have to set to display the same patch window also (11%).

Disable the low light handler and re-read only 5% Gray from each pattern solution.

This is also the first time I am taking measurements non-contact as I have been told that the heat OLED's emit will cause my meter profiling to be inaccurate so I am following your advice on how to setup my meters:


"If you want to match your meters measuring pixel area (FOV) of your meters (id3-i1PRO2), for an area of pixels of 25mm diameter, for i1PRO1/2 you have to place the meter with 17,8cm from your screen and your id3 with 13,6cm distance from the screen."


I am using two boom microphone stands to do this but am very worried about ambient light effecting the measurements. I have blackout blinds & am turning all the lights off but am worried about the light coming from my PC screen will effect the measurements.


Here is a picture of how I have the meters setup:


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post #27 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have the source & meter settings like this now:





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post #28 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Ted's pattern windows are 11.11%, and when you want to compare with a pattern generation solution (like FireStick/MobileForge) you are using, you have to set to display the same patch window also (11%).

Disable the low light handler and re-read only 5% Gray from each pattern solution.

So with the meter setting above I did what you said & re-ran 5% on all the different sources/settings & it seems nothing has changed:









I have noticed that when displaying the 11% windows with "Expand video to PC levels" turned ON the black area surrounding the window appears normal but with "Expand video to PC levels" turned OFF the black level is elevated turning what should be black gray.


Is this an indication that I should have "Expand video to PC levels" turned on?

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post #29 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 12:54 PM
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So with the meter setting above I did what you said & re-ran 5% on all the different sources/settings & it seems nothing has changed:
Are you using the same HDMI TV Input for that test of each device?

Your only difference is at 5% Gray, can you test the near black with more detail? You can use the 6-Point Near Black workflow page of Ted's Pre-Calibration Tools Workflow:



Also try to perform the same test by loading the pattern to your TV USB (check also that it has the same settings with the HDMI Input you are using)
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post #30 of 88 Old 07-17-2018, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Are you using the same HDMI TV Input for that test of each device?

Your only difference is at 5% Gray, can you test the near black with more detail? You can use the 6-Point Near Black workflow page of Ted's Pre-Calibration Tools Workflow:



Also try to perform the same test by loading the pattern to your TV USB (check also that it has the same settings with the HDMI Input you are using)

No I am not using the same HDMI input as I have my blu-ray plugged into one & the FireTV in the other. I have mirrored the picture settings but I guess something could be being changed in the background I am unaware of.


I will try using the same HDMI port & see if that fixes it.
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