What can I use to a calibrate a projector without using a PC as its only source? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By ConnecTEDDD
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 8 Old 06-05-2018, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 12
What can I use to a calibrate a projector without using a PC as its only source?

I'm starting to learn about hardware calibration. Having used discs in the past such as AVS Rec.709, Disney WOW, and Spears; I thought it would be time to take the hardware approach.

I looked at a few options such as the x-rite display pro, and color munki. Both under $250. Upon looking at reviews, and youtube videos, I could not see anything indicating having the ability to adjust the projector manually to get the calibrated results.
All sources indicate that I would ultimately need to use my PC as the source, since x-rite builds an image template/profile for your projector or monitor to use.
What if my only purpose of the projector is to play Blu-Ray & 4K UHD discs? I have set top boxes for that.

Is there a manual way to adjust the projector and allow x-rite software to tell you when you've matched color, brightness, contrast, grayscale, gamma, etc ?
Or perhaps someone can point me in another direction?

Thanks,
(CinemaScope) is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 Old 06-06-2018, 04:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,377
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3249 Post(s)
Liked: 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by (CinemaScope) View Post
I'm starting to learn about hardware calibration. Having used discs in the past such as AVS Rec.709, Disney WOW, and Spears; I thought it would be time to take the hardware approach.

I looked at a few options such as the x-rite display pro, and color munki. Both under $250. Upon looking at reviews, and youtube videos, I could not see anything indicating having the ability to adjust the projector manually to get the calibrated results.
All sources indicate that I would ultimately need to use my PC as the source, since x-rite builds an image template/profile for your projector or monitor to use.
What if my only purpose of the projector is to play Blu-Ray & 4K UHD discs? I have set top boxes for that.

Is there a manual way to adjust the projector and allow x-rite software to tell you when you've matched color, brightness, contrast, grayscale, gamma, etc ?
Or perhaps someone can point me in another direction?

Thanks,
Hi,

The videos you have seen, are useful for the users which will use the X-Rite software each meter is coming with. i1Dispaly PRO is coming with i1Profiler, but we are not using that software when we perform calibration using all the available consumer display/projector internal calibration controls.

I will start by explaining about the software each meter is coming (between i1Display PRO and ColorMunki Display), the i1Display PRO is coming with 2 versions (OEM or Retail), the Retail version coming with a license for X-Rite's i1Profiler, a software which can work with Retail X-Rite instruments only, not with OEM.

You can see read about the differences of OEM vs. Retail i1Display PRO colirimeter here.

i1Profiler is useful only if you are using your PC as a source, having a PC monitor or a TV or a projector to view content.

i1Profiler can direct connect with your PC Monitor RGB Balance controls (when this is possible, or asks you to do this manually and guides you what adjustment you need to take to do an initial White Calibration (usually monitors have 1-point of RGB balance controls for that). (It can't connect to do this with TV's or Projectors)

Later it will start automatic measurements to auto-adjust the Grayscale/Gamma by adjusting the output of the video signal that it goes to the connected display (VCGT). It will measure some colors also and it will generate an ICC file. To fully take advantage of the ICC correction (Gamut Correction) you need an application that can read ICC correction, software like PhotoShop (only from inside PhotoShop preview window you will be able to see Gamut Colors Correction.)

To your windows or other applications that is not supporting ICC, it will correct the VCGT (Video Card Gamma Table) only, this means RGB Balance (Grayscale) and Gamma, your Gamut is not corrected by VCGT.

ColorMunki Display / i1Display PRO are based under the same hardware; they both have sealed and higher quality filters and they are less sensitive to drift over the time, you will get better and more stable/faster reading to any pulse display (Plasma/DLP projectors etc.) with i1Display PRO because it has better refreshing rate scan capability, I prefer i1Display PRO because is supported also from more calibration software solutions.

About your calibration of the Monitors you own for your PC/MAC via VCGT or ICC, the ColorMunki Display is coming with a simple X-Rite software for this job but it lucks customization or the target colorspace/gamma...for example it has selection only to calibrate 2.2 gamma while that software is slow. i1Display PRO is coming with X-Rite's i1Profiler software that has customization, it's more advanced to it's calculations, X-Rite claims that is working 5x times faster, it can take sample of many more colors, and it has a Verification feature of the post-calibration results (with pass/fail also) to be able to see if it's accepted. ColorMunki Display software don't have verification feature. ColorMunki Display is a lot of slower compared with i1Display PRO. Generally the software which coming with ColorMunki Display is poor compared to i1Profiler which is coming with i1Display PRO.

About your TV calibration, ColorMunki Display is not supported by CalMAN/ChromaPure calibration software.

You can use ColorMunki Display with HCFR and ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI (additionally with LightSpace; contact me here to send you the instructions)

When you have a display/projector and you want to calibrate for playback from a stand-alone player, you will calibrate using manual adjustments of your display/projector available calibration controls, so initially you will need to start by setting Sharpness/Contrast/Brightness and then move to measurements with calibration software and you meter.

You will start using the Movie Mode (which is the best performing mode from all the other movies that each TV is coming), disable enhancement, and measure the Warm 1/2 with Grayscale patterns to see which has better RGB Balance and it's closer to D65 (The White Point that REC.709 colorspace is using).

After that measure the available Gamma Options (0,-1,-2,-3) to see which one is closer to your target gamma, recheck again contrast/brightness and then move to Grayscale calibration.

If you display/projector has 2-Point and 10/20 Point RGB Balance, then start with 2-Point and use 100% White patch to calibrate using the RGB-Gains (RGB-High) controls and then with 30% with RGB Cuts (RGB-Low) controls, recheck always both and contrast/brightness again, after that move to 10/20-Point RGB balance for further adjustments.

After the end of Grayscale calibration you will move to Color Gamut adjustments (if you display has that kind of controls, for Full CMS adjustments).

There free calibration software solutions, you can download:

1) HCFR from here with support forum topic: HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software

2) The Free DPS version of LightSpace CMS can be used also with an i1Display PRO meter, there available to read various guides on the Light Illusion website.

The specific guide for use with LightSpace DPS is here.

But there is a lot of potentially useful/interesting info in the various guides on the website also.

Support forum topic: Free LightSpace DPS - Manual Display Calibration

For improve your calibration knowledge, here are some useful links generally for calibration:

http://www.tlvexp.ca/

Video Calibration From The Inside - Volume I - 2nd Edition-1

http://chromapure.com/demos.asp

http://chromapure.com/ChromaPureManual.pdf

http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/...n%20How-To.pdf

http://calman.spectracal.com/user-guides.html

http://calman.spectracal.com/webinars.html

https://www.youtube.com/user/SpectraCal

http://lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

http://lightillusion.com/delta-e.html

http://lightillusion.com/manual_cali...ots_guide.html

About the patch generation, there disk/media files solutions, just find one that is bit-perfect for the calibration software you will use. Ideally to playback these patterns from the device you will use for movie playback (to have your full video chain calibrated). You will need patterns designed/encoded for SDR and patterns for HDR10.

There software patch generation or hardware controlled by software generators via applications (FireStick/TV, ChromeCast, AppleTV, mobile phones etc.), its fine to use them (to save some time from manually displaying 10/20-Point grayscale and 6 patterns for CMS, which is not super time-saving from performing this manually since its more accurate) but you need to test if the measurements you have from these solutions is matching the measurements you have from your actual playback source you will use for patch generation.

You can see some deviation example here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56253694

Using untested software patch generation solutions, while it can save some time and be easier from the user as procedure, its like having a calibrated display in 'virtual world'). The most of the users have skipped to verify if their patterns are accurate and they are happy from their results looking good looking charts with low dE numbers.

I have posted more details about what to look and about how to test here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56121138
bull81 likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #3 of 8 Old 07-08-2018, 12:56 AM
Member
 
marc1006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Wow, thank you very much for offering this information on the order of operations behind a calibration. I just had an "ah-ha" moment where a lot information in my head just became a bit more organized.

Could you quickly explain how your disc let's the user know his test patterns are truly accurate?

In the past I've gotten nice looking charts and graphs and have been dissatisfied knowing the overall PQ was not accurate. Thanks!
marc1006 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 8 Old 07-10-2018, 02:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,377
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3249 Post(s)
Liked: 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc1006 View Post
Wow, thank you very much for offering this information on the order of operations behind a calibration. I just had an "ah-ha" moment where a lot information in my head just became a bit more organized.

Could you quickly explain how your disc let's the user know his test patterns are truly accurate?

In the past I've gotten nice looking charts and graphs and have been dissatisfied knowing the overall PQ was not accurate. Thanks!
Hi, look what is happening, when movies are mastered, in color grading studios they are using monitors calibrated which are getting signal from the actual desktop system where connected, calibration software is using patterns generated from inside the color grading software (like Davinci Resolve or SGIO Mystika etc.) or using calibration software generated patterns, so the full video chain is calibrated, following some standards as targets, REC709 colorspace and 100nits peak output.

Now, when you have your movies and you want to follow the directors intent as close as possible, you need to calibrate your full video chain also, so to generate patterns from your movie playback device. If you have a blu-ray player then to use a blu-ray, if you have a media player then a stream the patterns from there or if you have a HTPC then to use pattern generated from inside your software player, to have the end of the day your full video chain calibrated.

Lately introduced software pattern generation solutions which can be loaded to phones or network players (FireStick/ChromeCast/AppleTV etc.), or using notebook output.... to make the patch generation automated, so to save some time from manual pattern change, all these sound cool as solutions, but the 99% of the users ingore to compare if they are accurate, so they calibrate using them without proper testing to see if the software output settings (player output) are correct, so unless its tested, its a calibration valid in a virtual world, since its untested/unverified if these solutions provide accurate patterns. Makes no sense to use any calibration solution which have deviations from your actual movie playback source, because you will have errors during playback (color errors or wrong levels).

For that reason when you want to use such a solutions you have to first verify that its accurate and its matching the output of your movie source player.

My disk has patterns for all calibration software, and each calibration software engine is using different RGB triplets for color patches, for that reason there separate chapters for CalMAN or ChromaPure, LightSpace, for HCFR usage etc., to accurately match what each software's engine expect from the user to display.

To compare your movie source vs. your software patch generation solution you need to measure the same patches from both solutions and see what kind of agreement you have, checking different settings until you see that are matching. For reference you will use your player output with my calibration disk (setting your player output YCbCr which provides an accurate output to stand alone media players or blu-ray players), see to have same pattern size (11% Windows) and compare taking grayscale and color gamut measurements.

See some examples:

FireStick: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56363844

NVidia Shield: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56440472

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post55333592

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56121138

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #5 of 8 Old 07-10-2018, 09:41 PM
Member
 
marc1006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc1006 View Post
Wow, thank you very much for offering this information on the order of operations behind a calibration. I just had an "ah-ha" moment where a lot information in my head just became a bit more organized.

Could you quickly explain how your disc let's the user know his test patterns are truly accurate?

In the past I've gotten nice looking charts and graphs and have been dissatisfied knowing the overall PQ was not accurate. Thanks!
Hi, look what is happening, when movies are mastered, in color grading studios they are using monitors calibrated which are getting signal from the actual desktop system where connected, calibration software is using patterns generated from inside the color grading software (like Davinci Resolve or SGIO Mystika etc.) or using calibration software generated patterns, so the full video chain is calibrated, following some standards as targets, REC709 colorspace and 100nits peak output.

Now, when you have your movies and you want to follow the directors intent as close as possible, you need to calibrate your full video chain also, so to generate patterns from your movie playback device. If you have a blu-ray player then to use a blu-ray, if you have a media player then a stream the patterns from there or if you have a HTPC then to use pattern generated from inside your software player, to have the end of the day your full video chain calibrated.

Lately introduced software pattern generation solutions which can be loaded to phones or network players (FireStick/ChromeCast/AppleTV etc.), or using notebook output.... to make the patch generation automated, so to save some time from manual pattern change, all these sound cool as solutions, but the 99% of the users ingore to compare if they are accurate, so they calibrate using them without proper testing to see if the software output settings (player output) are correct, so unless its tested, its a calibration valid in a virtual world, since its untested/unverified if these solutions provide accurate patterns. Makes no sense to use any calibration solution which have deviations from your actual movie playback source, because you will have errors during playback (color errors or wrong levels).

For that reason when you want to use such a solutions you have to first verify that its accurate and its matching the output of your movie source player.

My disk has patterns for all calibration software, and each calibration software engine is using different RGB triplets for color patches, for that reason there separate chapters for CalMAN or ChromaPure, LightSpace, for HCFR usage etc., to accurately match what each software's engine expect from the user to display.

To compare your movie source vs. your software patch generation solution you need to measure the same patches from both solutions and see what kind of agreement you have, checking different settings until you see that are matching. For reference you will use your player output with my calibration disk (setting your player output YCbCr which provides an accurate output to stand alone media players or blu-ray players), see to have same pattern size (11% Windows) and compare taking grayscale and color gamut measurements.

See some examples:

FireStick: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56363844

NVidia Shield: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56440472

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post55333592

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56121138
Thank you Ted. I will buy your digital download for CMS calibration. I will be calibrating an Oppo 203, which does not play .ISO, am I better off buying the disk off of the displaycalibrations.com website, or is there a workaround for playing the .ISO disk on the 203?

Thanks a lot.
marc1006 is offline  
post #6 of 8 Old 07-10-2018, 10:34 PM
Member
 
marc1006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Not calibrating my Oppo, but using your software with it. Sorry not sure how to phrase it.
marc1006 is offline  
post #7 of 8 Old 07-11-2018, 12:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,377
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3249 Post(s)
Liked: 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc1006 View Post
Thank you Ted. I will buy your digital download for CMS calibration. I will be calibrating an Oppo 203, which does not play .ISO, am I better off buying the disk off of the displaycalibrations.com website, or is there a workaround for playing the .ISO disk on the 203?

Thanks a lot.
Hi, OPPO officially can't playback ISO files (only with JB plays them), your option can be the Disk Copy or Media Files. The content between these 2 version are the same, just with Disk Copy you will have Menus and Pop-Up menus for navigation while with Media Files you will browse folders etc.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #8 of 8 Old 07-11-2018, 12:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,377
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3249 Post(s)
Liked: 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc1006 View Post
Not calibrating my Oppo, but using your software with it. Sorry not sure how to phrase it.
The software (LightSpace) is not mine, I have titled the Disk as LightSpace CMS because its largest part of development was the automatic 3D LUT display characterization with 1000/4913/9216 patterns (without user prompt), while its universal calibration disk where CalMAN/ChromaPure/HCFR can use also.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off