Four Color Matrix Meter Profling Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 11:32 AM
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What is the colortemp of the white subpixel,would reducing color to zero and meassure reveal its temp? got my stuff stacked away so i cant have a look

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post #62 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 11:38 AM
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So I tried a profile using Chromasurf as suggested and I was easily able to create the profile and it fails only on the Red Y, 2.26%

Although if off, i don't think it's "terrible" given the reasoning Ted gave on why we are seeing this on the OLED.



Profile Matrix
0.950745 -0.0248604 -0.00835419
0.0621567 1.01245 0.0144243
0.000159472 0.0104895 0.986206


Reference Device Klein Device Reference Device Klein Device
Model Manual K-10-A Manual K-10-A
Serial Entry U006663 Entry U006663
Profile 0: Factory Cal File 0: Factory Cal File 0: Factory Cal File 15: LG OLED 2016
Pre-Cal Pre-Cal Post-Cal Post-Cal Error Pass/Fail
White x 0.3137 0.310222 0.3137 0.314586 0.000886081 Pass
y 0.3305 0.331565 0.3305 0.33078 0.000280277 Pass
Y 101.535 101.879 101.535 102.577 1.03% Pass

Red x 0.6481 0.643858 0.6481 0.647848 0.000252149 Pass
y 0.3291 0.332982 0.3291 0.329185 8.54E-05 Pass
Y 22.6566 22.8777 22.6566 22.1439 2.26% No Pass

Green x 0.3018 0.286931 0.3018 0.301798 2.31E-06 Pass
y 0.5993 0.616268 0.5993 0.599098 0.00020157 Pass
Y 74.4261 74.0107 74.4261 74.7609 0.45% Pass

Blue x 0.1491 0.151744 0.1491 0.149099 1.05E-06 Pass
y 0.0561 0.050284 0.0561 0.0560969 3.10E-06 Pass
Y 6.8516 6.22324 6.8516 6.87126 0.29% Pass
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post #63 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 11:46 AM
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I also found lowering the brightness to 100 nits and using a 5% vs 10% window works best. I guess because the lower the nits the less White led and 5% less drift than 10%.

Thanks for everyone's help. At least we have an idea on what's going on.

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post #64 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
What is the colortemp of the white subpixel,would reducing color to zero and meassure reveal its temp?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
So I tried a profile using Chromasurf as suggested and I was easily able to create the profile and it fails only on the Red Y, 2.26%

Although if off, i don't think it's "terrible" given the reasoning Ted gave on why we are seeing this on the OLED.
hmmmmm.... something came up now....

I just checked some SPD of White only, I have kept from E6.

John, can you create a meter correction table using native gamut (wide) but with Warm 3 (don't change RGB balance, leave at default.)

Look SPD of White of Cool:



Medium:



Warm 1:



Warm 2:



Warm 3 (looks like it will track better the R+G+B curves):



or perform the same test (WRGB spectral with Lival) for each color temp...to see which colortemp W shape is closer to R+G+B curves shape.

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post #65 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
hmmmmm.... something came up now....

I just checked some SPD of White only, I have kept from E6.

John, can you create a meter correction table using native gamut (wide) but with Warm 3 (don't change RGB balance, leave at default.)
I will on my next calibration.

One thing came to mind. If you have a Klein K10A and use Chromasurf, if the profile fails, even by a little like mine does, it won't load so what do people do? I know when I used to use Chromasurf it took forever to get a match with the oled which is why I used the Calman profiler.

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post #66 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I will on my next calibration.

One thing came to mind. If you have a Klein K10A and use Chromasurf, if the profile fails, even by a little like mine does, it won't load so what do people do? I know when I used to use Chromasurf it took forever to get a match with the oled which is why I used the Calman profiler.
If ChromaSurf fail during verification, it will not save your table inside Klein's memory, so will have to use CalMAN and create there the table (so it will be loaded as software offset).

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post #67 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
What is the colortemp of the white subpixel,would reducing color to zero and meassure reveal its temp? got my stuff stacked away so i cant have a look


The white subpixel is unfiltered and is panel native.
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post #68 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
The white subpixel is unfiltered and is panel native.
So what does that mean for the profile?

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Last edited by jrref; 11-13-2018 at 12:35 PM.
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post #69 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
So what does that mean?
Native panel has about 10000K (very cool)
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post #70 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
The white subpixel is unfiltered and is panel native.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Native panel has about 10000K (very cool)
In English, please.
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post #71 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:55 PM
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So that means that the the 3ea rgb pixels needs to be ”calibrated” to a very warm white to compensate for the bluish 10000K native white pixel so we have our 6504K in the end?
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post #72 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
In English, please.
10000 Kelvin color temperature, very cool color temp, blue-ish.

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post #73 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
So that means that the the 3ea rgb pixels needs to be ”calibrated” to a very warm white to compensate for the bluish 10000K native white pixel so we have our 6504K in the end?
We have to see if creating meter profiling using warm 3 color temp, will reduce the color luminance issue during meter profiling verification.
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post #74 of 236 Old 11-13-2018, 07:24 PM
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I’ve never had issues profiling my Kleins where it fails the verification run. However, I always set white exactly, or a close as possible to, D65 prior to doing any profiling. I guess methodology matters.
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post #75 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
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I’ve never had issues profiling my Kleins where it fails the verification run. However, I always set white exactly, or a close as possible to, D65 prior to doing any profiling. I guess methodology matters.


Why should that help to reduce Luminance errors?

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post #76 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 01:39 AM
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Got it so the Jeti needs to be 4ft 9 inches away from the panel to match the Klein with the rubber hood in contact mode for 48 mm. For my A9F in my living room that's approximately where I had the Jeti because my couch was in the way of moving it back further and those are the scans I posted with the 3%ish red luminance errors. Something else going on because the rest of the colors and white are right on. I'll try it again with the exact FOV but it still would be good to see if anyone else can replicate the behavior. With your LCD are you using CM to profile and if so what are you seeing?

Technically, 4.9417 ft. is about 4 feet 11 inches. You have to convert decimal feet to feet and inches.

However, there's an easier way to do this. Just set the Bosch meter to milimeter mode.

48.0 mm/ 0.032 = 1500 mm
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post #77 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 03:58 AM
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Why should that help to reduce Luminance errors?
If the white sub pixel is causing issues in relation to the RGB sub pixels, is it not the same principle as using Warm 3 instead of another color temp? I think there are other issues going on as what I posted or trying to use Warm 3 to mitigate the luminance error would mean you can’t properly calibrate HDR/DV with a colormeter. But again, I don’t have issues creating profiles through Chromasurf..... which I think boils down to methodology.
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Yes I heard about some conspiracy theory about FCCM creation. There is no secret to read 4 patches and create an accurate FCCM. OLED just have some issues because of the technology that needs to be known. I will test the attempt from Ted and will post my results.
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post #79 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
If the white sub pixel is causing issues in relation to the RGB sub pixels, is it not the same principle as using Warm 3 instead of another color temp? I think there are other issues going on as what I posted or trying to use Warm 3 to mitigate the luminance error would mean you can’t properly calibrate HDR/DV with a colormeter. But again, I don’t have issues creating profiles through Chromasurf..... which I think boils down to methodology.
Dewayne, I tend to agree with you on this one. There is definetly something going on that would be nice to understand. What i'm experiencing is a little over 2% luminance error in Red. Everything else is pretty much right on. I know if I do a couple of runs I can get it to pass. With the i1Pro I was never able to get close matches without lots of runs but with the Jeti is works every time. I have the Klein with the hood in contact with the screen, 48 mm FOV and I had the Jeti at 4ft 9 inches, next time I'll use 4ft 11 inches, but I don't think those 2 inches is causing the behavior, to get the same FOV.

I know you are using a different spectro and I know we discussed It vectored slightly differently than the Jeti, I forget how. Maybe that's helping you? How are you setting up the Klein and your spectro? Remember we were talking about this profiling behavior about 2 years ago with the OLEDs?

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post #80 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Dewayne, I tend to agree with you on this one. There is definetly something going on that would be nice to understand. What i'm experiencing is a little over 2% luminance error in Red. Everything else is pretty much right on. I know if I do a couple of runs I can get it to pass. With the i1Pro I was never able to get close matches without lots of runs but with the Jeti is works every time. I have the Klein with the hood in contact with the screen, 48 mm FOV and I had the Jeti at 4ft 9 inches, next time I'll use 4ft 11 inches, but I don't think those 2 inches is causing the behavior, to get the same FOV.

I know you are using a different spectro and I know we discussed It vectored slightly differently than the Jeti, I forget how. Maybe that's helping you? How are you setting up the Klein and your spectro? Remember we were talking about this profiling behavior about 2 years ago with the OLEDs?
I highly doubt it has anything to do with the difference between a PR-670 and Jeti. Your 2 inch distance error would not be a factor either. When I profile oleds, stable room temp, screen luminance dissipation (heat), line of sight to screen, and meter leveling are far more important and I am aim for precision with those items.
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post #81 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
Yes I heard about some conspiracy theory about FCCM creation. There is no secret to read 4 patches and create an accurate FCCM. OLED just have some issues because of the technology that needs to be known. I will test the attempt from Ted and will post my results.
Agreee. However, percision matters.... which very few people actually pay attention to.
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post #82 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 07:59 AM
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In my still short experience and especially in FCCM creation, precision and methodology is all. Any forgotten step leads to a not good FCCM, therefore to a waste of time.

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post #83 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 08:32 AM
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In speaking with some of my contacts this morning, Ted is correct in his post yesterday. The profiling math assumes the spectrum of red green and blue Oleds combined is the same as the spectrum of the white Oled which is not the case for the OLEDs and it varies at different luminance values and WPs. As Tyler posted yesterday, the white Oled is unfiltered. This is why we are seeing different errors at different luminance values and color temperatures. Dewayne's experience is also significant because profiling at D65 will cause the RGB Oleds to be warmer somewhat compensating for the white Oled. Also profiling at lower luminance levels will use less white Oled which I saw gave me less of an error.

At the end of the day, at least from my experience, the errors are small. When I ran a validation scan with my Jeti after doing the calibration with the profiled Klein, the gray scale scan was incredibly close. But the problem with this test is the OLED is drifting from the scans so it's hard to get an exact match.

I'm glad this was discussed, again, so now at least all the "experts" have weighed in and it's documented here in this thread.

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I don’t own an oled panel and I never tried to profile/calibrate one. Still I don’t fully understand the problem unless it is related to how the colorimeter reacts to the spectrum of that type pf panel, which is the only difference that comes to my mind. There should be no other difference and, in my very humble opinion, drift shouldn’t be a problem if you are really finicky in feeding the TV with the same content before and after. Probes read the same patches, at the same drift “point”, with the same FOV. DeWayne is a Master but he got two hands like us. lol

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post #85 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
... I have the Klein with the hood in contact with the screen, 48 mm FOV and I had the Jeti at 4ft 9 inches, next time I'll use 4ft 11 inches, but I don't think those 2 inches is causing the behavior, to get the same FOV.
It probably won't make any difference...I'm merely pointing out the correct distance (4'11"), and in millimeters (1500mm). It appears you're getting an accurate reading of 2% error.

John, have you tried the Klein off-screen to rule out heat? I know OLEDs don't put out heat like plasma, but worth a try.

Quote:
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Your 2 inch distance error would not be a factor either. When I profile oleds, stable room temp, screen luminance dissipation (heat), line of sight to screen, and meter leveling are far more important and I am aim for precision with those items.
Get a measuring laser.
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post #86 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 01:31 PM
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It probably won't make any difference...I'm merely pointing out the correct distance (4'11"), and in millimeters (1500mm). It appears you're getting an accurate reading of 2% error.

John, have you tried the Klein off-screen to rule out heat? I know OLEDs don't put out heat like plasma, but worth a try.
I did once before but the problem is then I would have to move the Jeti even further back lol. I'm sure there is some combination with the Klein and the Jeti to further minimize the error but at least we know what might be going on so I just have to check, which I always do, with the profile checker after I create the profile to make sure the error is in this range or smaller.

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post #87 of 236 Old 11-14-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Get a measuring laser.
Why do you assume I don’t have multiple?
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post #88 of 236 Old 11-15-2018, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
The white subpixel is unfiltered and is panel native.
Probably this is happening with LG's models more than the Sony's ones.

I mean LG's are not filtering the W subpixel to be able to output more nits in HDR mode than Sony.

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post #89 of 236 Old 11-15-2018, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
What i'm experiencing is a little over 2% luminance error in Red. Everything else is pretty much right on
Tyler has experienced the same error in Red Y, using Colorimetry Research CR-250: ''I have been able to reproduce the error you are reporting. I get the same Red luminance error even when using a CRI Cr-250 5nm spectro. I am working with our color lab director to try and see what might be causing the issue.''
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post #90 of 236 Old 11-15-2018, 03:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
John, have you tried the Klein off-screen to rule out heat? I know OLEDs don't put out heat like plasma, but worth a try.
The OLEDs produce more heat to the area where behind are located the electronic circuits, which is usually its not to the center of the panel where we are measuring.

You can use an Infrared Digital Temperature Thermometer with laser aiming to find out where the electronics are located.

When you are using the Klein K-10A with the extension tube (with or without the hood), and you leave some millimeters distance from the screen; for the instrument to not touch/force pressure to the panel; this is a non-contact measurement also, since you have the distance from the extension tube + the distance from the Klein's light mixing chamber (which has a smaller internal extension tube also). Klein designed to not be affected from thermal issues even if you are using the meter for days in contact mode.

Here is an photo Klein K-10 optics/electronics:



Here is the same photo with higher resolution.

When you take non-contact measurements, there NIST specifications about what extension tube you have to use.

Here is an example of a professional extension tube SpectraCAL is using for Minolta or JETI; or other spectro with very narrow FOV.



At the left side is the CEO of Klein Instruments (Luhr Jensen), at the right side is the Lab Director of SpectraCAL (Darryl Bird).

Here is a a Minolta CR-200 (Chroma meter) with extension tube:

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