The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by saint964 View Post
Ha Ted,

Is there any news for the RP4.
No news yet.

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post #332 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 07:04 AM
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Just tried this with CalMAN AutoCal out of interest and works pretty well. The results are not nearly as good as with using Ted's disk but not bad.

Some questions & feedback:

1) How different would the calibration be RGB vs YCbCr - anyway to quantify that?
2) I guess this is more CalMAN AutoCal related but the adjustments made to get a decent calibration are huge compared to my manual calibration using Ted's disk.
3) One area I do prefer over Ted's disk (sorry Ted) is that the PGenerator can generate the weird Samsung Grayscale % patches that CalMAN asks for. Not sure how much difference .x % difference makes to the calibration. 95% is the worst at actually being 97.x %!

Add me to the list of people asking for YCbCR and HDR

It's a brilliant product - fantastic piece of work. And, now that Ted is involved, am expecting it to get even better - no pressure

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post #333 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Just tried this with CalMAN AutoCal out of interest and works pretty well. The results are not nearly as good as with using Ted's disk but not bad.

Some questions & feedback:

1) How different would the calibration be RGB vs YCbCr - anyway to quantify that?
2) I guess this is more CalMAN AutoCal related but the adjustments made to get a decent calibration are huge compared to my manual calibration using Ted's disk.
3) One area I do prefer over Ted's disk (sorry Ted) is that the PGenerator can generate the weird Samsung Grayscale % patches that CalMAN asks for. Not sure how much difference .x % difference makes to the calibration. 95% is the worst at actually being 97.x %!

Add me to the list of people asking for YCbCR and HDR

It's a brilliant product - fantastic piece of work. And, now that Ted is involved, am expecting it to get even better - no pressure

Cheers
It really isn't CalMAN autocal-related. It's not just RGB vs YCbCr, which can be a big difference anyway, but the Pi is outputting in RGB Full (0-255), while YCbCr is 16-235 only. When properly set, CalMAN will limit the final signal out from the Pi to the TV to 16-235 (IIRC). It's going to depend on whatever errors the set makes doing its transforms on the input signal. Some TVs/makes are worse than others.

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post #334 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 09:16 AM
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Fair point but I was looking at @AnotherDude 's settings and he has similar large adjustments off his non-Pi Generator (assuming that outputs YCbCr).

I'll stick to Ted's disk for SDR & Ryan's for HDR then - unless I can convince myself to plumb for a VideoForge Pro - and hide it from the gf …..

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post #335 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Fair point but I was looking at @AnotherDude 's settings and he has similar large adjustments off his non-Pi Generator (assuming that outputs YCbCr).

I'll stick to Ted's disk for SDR & Ryan's for HDR then - unless I can convince myself to plumb for a VideoForge Pro - and hide it from the gf …..
FWIW I'm using a Radiance 2043 controlled by CalMAN as pattern source. I should put that in my sig.
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post #336 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
FWIW I'm using a Radiance 2043 controlled by CalMAN as pattern source. I should put that in my sig.
And that would be YCbCr 4:2:2?

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post #337 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
And that would be YCbCr 4:2:2?
Here's what I spec in CalMAN, anything else I leave up to it.
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post #338 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Here's what I spec in CalMAN, anything else I leave up to it.
That would actually be in the Radiance's output setup.

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post #339 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
That would actually be in the Radiance's output setup.
Checking, mine is set to 4:4:4. Should I set it to 4:2:2 for SDR?

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post #340 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Checking, mine is set to 4:4:4. Should I set it to 4:2:2 for SDR?
I believe Ted recommends whatever chroma scheme your primary source on that input is set to. If it's a BDP, you can check its output settings.

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post #341 of 367 Old 09-09-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
I believe Ted recommends whatever chroma scheme your primary source on that input is set to. If it's a BDP, you can check its output settings.
My only source is the OPPO UDP-205 (I run a Roku box through its HDMI input), output configurable, I had it on Auto, I just switched it to 4:4:4. Who knows. But things have been working very nicely.
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post #342 of 367 Old 09-10-2019, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
1) How different would the calibration be RGB vs YCbCr - anyway to quantify that?
So, just out of interest, I compared pre-calibration YCbCr (using Ted's disk) patterns vs PGenerator RGB patterns using my manually calibrated settings (Ted's disk). The results are quite different so shows that can't really calibrate YCbCr source with RGB generator ?

Pre-calibration views are YCbCr vs RGB comparison. Post calibration is with PGenerator & AutoCAL.

Interestingly the pre-calibration YCbCr & post-calibration RGB are very similar. I could do the reverse and do a YCbCr pre-calibration using the PGnerator RGB settings ...
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post #343 of 367 Old 09-10-2019, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
So, just out of interest, I compared pre-calibration YCbCr (using Ted's disk) patterns vs PGenerator RGB patterns using my manually calibrated settings (Ted's disk). The results are quite different so shows that can't really calibrate YCbCr source with RGB generator ?

Pre-calibration views are YCbCr vs RGB comparison. Post calibration is with PGenerator & AutoCAL.

Interestingly the pre-calibration YCbCr & post-calibration RGB are very similar. I could do the reverse and do a YCbCr pre-calibration using the PGnerator RGB settings ...
What you might do is a pre- and post-cal with RGB, and then a verification with YCbCr from Ted's disk. Then you can see if there are differences in the post-cal and the verification.
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post #344 of 367 Old 09-11-2019, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by saint964 View Post
Ha Ted,

Is there any news for the RP4.
Developer received RP4 today so he will start testing. He has to see if the device will have bit-perfect output using a waveform monitor.

After the required testing and programming, I will update once there will be further news.

When all will be fine, it will be released new PGenerator version with RP4 support, but people don't buy any RP4 device yet, until it will be confirmed first that is fine after all the testing.
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post #345 of 367 Old 09-11-2019, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
What you might do is a pre- and post-cal with RGB, and then a verification with YCbCr from Ted's disk. Then you can see if there are differences in the post-cal and the verification.

Here you go. The RGB Pre/Post snap is before and after PGenerator calibration. The YCbCr Verification is Pre-calib snap using Ted's disk vs post PGenerator caibration
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
But people don't buy any RP4 device yet, until it will be confirmed first that is fine after all the testing.
I believe when the software is there people are going to buy the RP4 instead the RP3.

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post #347 of 367 Old 09-11-2019, 01:05 PM
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Agreed. Especially since the hardware can do HDR10. fw and sw support will take time to arrive of course.
https://libreelec.tv/2019/06/libreel...-alpha1-rpi4b/

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post #348 of 367 Old 09-11-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by saint964 View Post
I believe when the software is there people are going to buy the RP4 instead the RP3.
Exactly, just it has to be confirmed first that the output it bit-perfect in RGB, because GPU/HDMI chip are different.

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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Agreed. Especially since the hardware can do HDR10. fw and sw support will take time to arrive of course.
https://libreelec.tv/2019/06/libreel...-alpha1-rpi4b/
If it will be capability to control the HDR10 Metadata and AVI infoframe then sure it will be added, in the future.
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post #349 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
FWIW I'm using a Radiance 2043 controlled by CalMAN as pattern source. I should put that in my sig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Checking, mine is set to 4:4:4. Should I set it to 4:2:2 for SDR?
It’s not recommended to use Lumagen with YCbCr 4:4:4 patch generation since an internal processing will alter the digital levels of the patterns, adding one LBS (Least Significant Bit) error.

I have checked your model with DVDO AVLab Signal analyser in pixel level, with OPPO 203 also as player of my disk or media files, just to check if Lumagen pass the signal 'transparent' when you are not using any 1D/3D LUT correction.

As Lumagen internally works at 4:2:2, it likes more to have 4:2:2 input and 4:2:2 output.

When you have 4:2:2 input/output, the signal which will passthrou will be untouched, I have checked my patterns digital levels and the window pattern area had solid pixels when you were checking some pixels.

When you have 4:4:4 or RGB-Video output, there is a processing to the passthrou signal, so when you will examine the pixels you will see random errors to all channels, +-1 digital error per each channel.

The same is happening with patch generation also, if you examine RGB-Video or 4:4:4 output, the patterns will not be solid in pixel triplets but they will be accurate and solid when you will have 4:2:2 output.

So the only recommended method for patch generation is the YCbCr 4:2:2.

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post #350 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
It’s not recommended to use Lumagen with YCbCr 4:4:4 patch generation since an internal processing will alter the digital levels of the patterns, adding one LBS (Least Significant Bit) error.
Spoiler!

So the only recommended method for patch generation is the YCbCr 4:2:2.
Thanks, TEDD! I'll start using that now.

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post #351 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Exactly, just it has to be confirmed first that the output it bit-perfect in RGB, because GPU/HDMI chip are different.

If it will be capability to control the HDR10 Metadata and AVI infoframe then sure it will be added, in the future.
This might seen a stupid question. But since Dolby Vision in "tunnelled" mode is wrapped in 8-bit RGB, hasn't someone who has a DVDO AVLab TPG looked at the pixels in the RGB picture (which must be visible) to "reverse engineer" it? So is it feasible to re-create tunnelled Dolby Vision, or is there some encrypted watermarking going on as well that can't be replicated? I assume it is otherwise someone would have already done it?

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post #352 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
This might seen a stupid question. But since Dolby Vision in "tunnelled" mode is wrapped in 8-bit RGB, hasn't someone who has a DVDO AVLab TPG looked at the pixels in the RGB picture (which must be visible) to "reverse engineer" it? So is it feasible to re-create tunnelled Dolby Vision, or is there some encrypted watermarking going on as well that can't be replicated? I assume it is otherwise someone would have already done it?
He had looked about this from 2016, its not possible from API of any SDR hardware generator to do anything.

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post #353 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 10:42 AM
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He had looked about this from 2016, its not possible from API of any SDR hardware generator to do anything.
Understood. Perhaps that might be possible with the HDR hardware of the RPI4 in the future, then. (I'm not asking you if you think it will be! Just saying)

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post #354 of 367 Old 09-13-2019, 12:54 PM
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Understood. Perhaps that might be possible with the HDR hardware of the RPI4 in the future, then. (I'm not asking you if you think it will be! Just saying)
HDMI 1.4b is enough, no need for HDMI 2.0b.

Murideo is using already only 1080p60 full range RGB 8 bit for DV, just you need the secret sauce, which is not public available.
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post #355 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 04:23 AM
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Just read this thread from the first post and there's some great info in here so thanks to the OP for all his effort, and the contributors.

I have a use case for 1080p50 over HDMI and if the OP has the capacity, would you be able to test this, as an output resolution/ refresh rate combination, for the RPi and PGenerator, @ RGB full?

Thanks in advance,

Paul

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post #356 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 05:50 AM
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Just read this thread from the first post and there's some great info in here so thanks to the OP for all his effort, and the contributors.

I have a use case for 1080p50 over HDMI and if the OP has the capacity, would you be able to test this, as an output resolution/ refresh rate combination, for the RPi and PGenerator, @ RGB full?

Thanks in advance,

Paul
Hi Paul,

PGenerator is accurate @ RGB-Full output setting will all supported frame rate / frame resolution combo's.

Just you decide what levels you want from the software you will use.

For example from CalMAN you can use 0-255 or 16-235 or from LightSpace you can use 0-255 or 16-235 or 16-255.

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post #357 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Paul,

PGenerator is accurate @ RGB-Full output setting will all supported frame rate / frame resolution combo's.

Just you decide what levels you want from the software you will use.

For example from CalMAN you can use 0-255 or 16-235 or from LightSpace you can use 0-255 or 16-235 or 16-255.
Hi Ted,

Great and thanks for the response, appreciated.

I'll get the RPi bought now.

Paul
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post #358 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by youngsyp View Post
Hi Ted,

Great and thanks for the response, appreciated.

I'll get the RPi bought now.

Paul
For people interesting to use PGenerator, its been tested using Raspberry: Pi 1 Model B (Rev. 2) / Pi 2 Model B / Pi 3 Model B / Pi 3 Model B+ hardware. We recommend these hardware options.

Currently Pi 4 Model B is not supported, but its under testing these days, as it need further development the integration and testing.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #359 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For people interesting to use PGenerator, its been tested using Raspberry: Pi 1 Model B (Rev. 2) / Pi 2 Model B / Pi 3 Model B / Pi 3 Model B+ hardware. We recommend these hardware options.

Currently Pi 4 Model B is not supported, but its under testing these days, as it need further development the integration and testing.
I just completed setting up a Raspberry Pi 3 revision B with PGenerator, though it took a while to get connection issues sorted out with my Windows 10 tablet. I found through testing that Bluetooth is the most reliable means of connecting the PGenerator to the PC. A great source of info regarding PGenerator as well as Device Control ( a browser based program for controlling the PGenerator along with many other uses) can be found here:

https://www.lightillusion.com/forums...topic&forum=19

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post #360 of 367 Old 09-17-2019, 10:35 AM
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You were lucky then. In my testing I found Bluetooth to be incredibly flaky, to the point of unusable. Firstly you have to be VERY quick to connect after it boots, as that is the only chance you get when it is pairing mode. Secondly, it kept dropping the connection at random - meaning a reboot of the Raspberry Pi to get it back (see above), which would disconnect from Calman, so you'd have to start the operation again. Total nightmare.

Wifi is better, but I really only trust a full ethernet cable now. There's too much at stake if you are running very long operations.
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