The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 489 Old 09-17-2019, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Honestly I always use BT with RPi, much more stable here.

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post #362 of 489 Old 09-17-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Honestly I always use BT with RPi, much more stable here.
How strange. Could be my laptop I suppose. But haven't really had a problem with Wifi - have people generally? I use ethernet as a precaution but I think Wifi would be fine really.

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post #363 of 489 Old 09-17-2019, 04:56 PM
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How strange. Could be my laptop I suppose. But haven't really had a problem with Wifi - have people generally? I use ethernet as a precaution but I think Wifi would be fine really.
I've never really gotten BT to work well, either. I use WiFi with mine, or Cat5.

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post #364 of 489 Old 09-18-2019, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For people interesting to use PGenerator, its been tested using Raspberry: Pi 1 Model B (Rev. 2) / Pi 2 Model B / Pi 3 Model B / Pi 3 Model B+ hardware. We recommend these hardware options.

Currently Pi 4 Model B is not supported, but its under testing these days, as it need further development the integration and testing.
Thanks Ted.

I picked up a brand new 3B+, with case for £20. So when/ if the 4B is verified to offer the same bit perfect output, along with Rec.2020/ ST2084 capability, I buy one and use the 3B+ to smart enable the toaster or something.

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post #365 of 489 Old 09-18-2019, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by youngsyp View Post
Thanks Ted.

I picked up a brand new 3B+, with case for £20. So when/ if the 4B is verified to offer the same bit perfect output, along with Rec.2020/ ST2084 capability, I buy one and use the 3B+ to smart enable the toaster or something.

Paul
RPi can be accurate only with RGB output, and RGB is just RGB, its not definng any colorspace, so if its possibility to be added HDR10 metadata injection, this is something separate from RGB patch generation, it will be an added HDR10/AVI InfoFrame for HDR capability, which is separate from RGB signal.

You can inject HDR10 metadata by adding an HD Fury device to the output of PGenerator.

ColorSpace (REC.709 / REC.2020) is different in patch generation triplets when you are generating YCbCr triplet patterns.
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post #366 of 489 Old 09-18-2019, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
RPi can be accurate only with RGB output, and RGB is just RGB, its not definng any colorspace, so if its possibility to be added HDR10 metadata injection, this is something separate from RGB patch generation, it will be an added HDR10/AVI InfoFrame for HDR capability, which is separate from RGB signal.

You can inject HDR10 metadata by adding an HD Fury device to the output of PGenerator.

ColorSpace (REC.709 / REC.2020) is different in patch generation triplets when you are generating YCbCr triplet patterns.
Understood. I used the incorrect wording.

With regards to HDR10 calibration/ patterns, I intend to buy the S&M UHD Benchmark disc and use my Panasonic UB820 for that. It'll be slower for sure, than using a dedicated TPG with LightSpace integration but, with a potential solution with the RPi 4B on the horizon, I don't see the need to buy anything like the HD Fury Integral etc in the meantime.

I'm also investigating upgrading my NUC HTPC, as the current versions support full UHD HDR, so I could use that, with it's Intel graphics adapter and madVR for all TPG duties.

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post #367 of 489 Old 09-19-2019, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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09.19.2019 UPDATE: I've checked again AppleTV 4K YCbCr/RGB High with tvOS 13... it still keep the same behavior filmed here for YCbCr and here for RGB High

That confirms my belief that it's not a software issue.

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post #368 of 489 Old 09-25-2019, 07:31 PM
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@ConnecTEDDD will the RPi4 you guys are working on output YCbCr at some point? Sadly, my Samsung QLED RGB->YCbCr color space conversion is pants so i can't use RPi as a pattern generator.

Otherwise, going to have to fork our for an expensive pattern generator which i would rather (obviously) avoid.

Cheers.
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post #369 of 489 Old 09-26-2019, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
@ConnecTEDDD will the RPi4 you guys are working on output YCbCr at some point? Sadly, my Samsung QLED RGB->YCbCr color space conversion is pants so i can't use RPi as a pattern generator.

Otherwise, going to have to fork our for an expensive pattern generator which i would rather (obviously) avoid.

Cheers.
There no plans for that as it will require a lot of development work to create offset to RGB values for reducing the digital errors of YCbCr output, as there no control to change the YCbCr values, there no way to make it bit-perfect, using RGB value offset.

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post #370 of 489 Old 09-26-2019, 02:11 AM
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If possible, could a Chromecast Ultra be tested please?

Paul
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post #371 of 489 Old 09-29-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
@ConnecTEDDD will the RPi4 you guys are working on output YCbCr at some point? Sadly, my Samsung QLED RGB->YCbCr color space conversion is pants so i can't use RPi as a pattern generator.

Otherwise, going to have to fork our for an expensive pattern generator which i would rather (obviously) avoid.
RPi4 require a lot of development as the current framework is not compatible. Development has started....but HDR10 metadata looks not possible to be generated.

Why you are not doing manual cal?

Pattern generators are more useful as solutions for users who perform 3D LUT's.

When you have a TV with 10/20-Point RGB Balance, it will more accurate to perform your calibration using patterns from your actual source, as the final decisions of what adjustments to provide its up to the user, so its more important these user decisions to be improved from time-to-time more that saving time from using pattern generators, or investing a lot of money for YCbCr generator.

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post #372 of 489 Old 09-29-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by youngsyp View Post
If possible, could a Chromecast Ultra be tested please?

Paul
It already has been, Paul. See here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57561190

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post #373 of 489 Old 09-29-2019, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
RPi4 require a lot of development as the current framework is not compatible. Development has started....but HDR10 metadata looks not possible to be generated.

Why you are not doing manual cal?

Pattern generators are more useful as solutions for users who perform 3D LUT's.

When you have a TV with 10/20-Point RGB Balance, it will more accurate to perform your calibration using patterns from your actual source, as the final decisions of what adjustments to provide its up to the user, so its more important these user decisions to be improved from time-to-time more that saving time from using pattern generators, or investing a lot of money for YCbCr generator.
I am doing a manual cal - particularly for SDR using your disk - the results are very good indeed. Problem is that Samsung QLED Grayscale % is not in 5% increments and liable to change so a pattern disk will never be able to keep up. HDR is even more tricky - am finding it very tricky to calibrate even 2-point so autocal would help. CalMAN have changed the grayscale points for Autocal completely so a TPG is the only solution.
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post #374 of 489 Old 09-29-2019, 09:58 PM
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CalMAN have changed the grayscale points for Autocal completely so a TPG is the only solution.
Not CalMAN. Samsung.
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post #375 of 489 Old 09-29-2019, 10:19 PM
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Not CalMAN. Samsung.
Yeh, sorry, should have said CalMAN had to change as Samsung points are now a moving target.
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post #376 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by youngsyp View Post
If possible, could a Chromecast Ultra be tested please?
Dominic Chan has posted comparison between Ted's disc (Samsung M8500), GDI (Internal), and Chromecast from HCFR here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57249506

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post #377 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It already has been, Paul. See here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57561190
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Dominic Chan has posted comparison between Ted's disc (Samsung M8500), GDI (Internal), and Chromecast from HCFR here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57249506
Thanks although, that look sto be just the Chromecast, and not the Ultra. I'd expect the underlying hardware to be different and possibly the software driving it. Or maybe I'm wrong?!

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post #378 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 01:51 AM
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Thanks although, that look sto be just the Chromecast, and not the Ultra. I'd expect the underlying hardware to be different and possibly the software driving it. Or maybe I'm wrong?!

Paul
All models are working the same way.

Google ChromeCast/Ultra

LightSpace's Connect or CalMAN's MobileForge have Android versions for each App, they can be installed to Google's ChromeCast (Gen 1,2 or 3) or ChromeCast Ultra, since all these devices are running a stripped-down version of Chrome OS and Android App installations are supported.



There available also some Smart TVs with FireTV build into the TV hardware, the specific model of each Fire TV Edition is noted in the TV name, such as 'Fire TV Edition - Toshiba 4K (2018/2019)' or 'Fire TV Edition - Element 4K (2017)'.

Each pattern generation App has to send to Google devices Full Range (PC Levels) RGB-Triplets for patch generation.

For MobileForge users, CalMAN's 'Expand Video Levels to PC Levels' setting has to be enabled.

For LightSpace Connect users, LightSpace's by default will send RGB-Triplet patches with PC Levels when Patch Scale @ LightSpace Options will be at 'Min: 0 and Max: 255' values.

Each Google device then will compress to Video Levels and also perform a colorspace conversion from RGB to YCbCr; to provide YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace video output.

That colorspace conversion will add rounding errors, it can generate only accurate patches for grayscale but not bit-perfect for color patches.

For that reason its not recommended any Google device to be used with any App (CalMAN's MobileForge or LightSpace's Connect) as a patch generation solution.

Google's ChromeCast color patch generation issue appears as a notice to the MobileForge's Quick Start Quide:



Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) has posted about that color patch generation issue to AVSForum.com also:

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post #379 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 02:02 AM
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Thanks Ted, extremely informative as ever.

That's put that one to bed!

Paul
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post #380 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
I am doing a manual cal - particularly for SDR using your disk - the results are very good indeed. Problem is that Samsung QLED Grayscale % is not in 5% increments and liable to change so a pattern disk will never be able to keep up. HDR is even more tricky - am finding it very tricky to calibrate even 2-point so autocal would help. CalMAN have changed the grayscale points for Autocal completely so a TPG is the only solution.
Using Contrast @ 100, the alignment for SDR is OK and don't have any serious problem which will not allow to perform a proper calibration of grayscale.

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Using Contrast @ 100, the alignment for SDR is OK and don't have any serious problem which will not allow to perform a proper calibration of grayscale.
Sorry Ted, I don't quite get what you mean. Are you saying that SDR using standard 5% increments is ok for Samsung QLED (SDR) even though it specifies weird %'s ?
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Sorry Ted, I don't quite get what you mean. Are you saying that SDR using standard 5% increments is ok for Samsung QLED (SDR) even though it specifies weird %'s ?
CalMAN has weird values for Samsung, normal menu of Samsung has 5% increments.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) has posted about that color patch generation issue to AVSForum.com also:

Confused, I thought MobileForge even on a FireStick was not bit accurate as per the OP ?
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Confused, I thought MobileForge even on a FireStick was not bit accurate as per the OP ?
Nothing is perfect with MobileForge, you can see that to the first post of that thread.

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Pattern Generator App Solutions Accuracy

When you want to perform a display profiling, this will require to available a bit-perfect patch generation solution, which will be able to generate accurate color patches of any valid RGB-Triplet combination, when the calibration will request them to be generated and displayed to the LG OLED TV.

Because the price range for consumers for buying an external hardware reference pattern generator is very high; at least $1500; it's been available from calibration companies Apps which can be installed to Android or Apple’s iOS devices where the calibration software can connect with the App and enable the generation of color patches.

There two pattern generation App solutions available:



MobileForge App from SpectraCAL (free) for CalMAN software users. It will required a paid license of CalMAN software to use MobileForge.



LightSpace Connect App from Light Illusion (free with 25 patches limit and for unlimited patch license $10) for LightSpace software users. LightSpace Connect can work with free license level, LightSpace ZRO.

The point of these solutions is to provide accurate patch generator to the LG OLED TV’s HDMI Input, so the signal to follow the same video signal processing pipeline as the user's movie playback device will be connected to HDMI Input also after the calibration.

For that reason, it's not recommended to generate patches using screen mirroring methods directly into TV; like SmartShare Screen Share, Miracast, Screen Mirroring, Mirroring Display, AllShare Cast or Mirror for LG TV; as this will bypass the physical HDMI Input video pipeline processing stages.

As an idea, the Pattern Generator App solutions sound very promising and capable, since they will save a lot of users money from buying expensive external reference hardware pattern generator, but in the real world, it has pitfalls and 99% of the users are aware of the issues per each supported device, below you will see a lot of details about these issues, for any user to be able to decide the most accurate and bit-perfect solution for his setup.

When MobileForge App released from SpectraCAL, it's been highly advertised as a reference-level patch generation solution, the reason it's been developed was to provide accurate patch generation, if you look MobileForge's Quick Start Quide:



...or MobileForge's White Paper:



About patch generation accuracy verification, the SpectraCAL's MobileForge developers seems they had performed very advanced tests for months, with multiple reference evaluation gear of thousand dollars to able to check the accuracy at digital pixel level.

Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) has tested virtually every device using two of the most expensive reference analyzers available, to double check the accuracy of the results, he found that MobileForge was bit-perfect to any tested device, as he has posted to AVSForum.com:




Low cost and affordable pattern generation solution ideas for automated patch generation which can make DIY display calibration accessible for a much wider range of home users are always welcome, but bit-perfect output capability comes first as priority on this guide.

Generally, never use an App patch generation solution without testing to see if it can able generate accurate patch generation to your setup. There many variables which can affect the device output, there many different generations of devices or many different firmware or operation system version per device. It's unknown if something will work, unless it's been tested even after the installation of a new OS or FW release.

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post #386 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 08:07 AM
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AppleTV with iPhone/iPad

LightSpace's Connect or CalMAN's MobileForge have iOS versions for each App, it can installed to iPhone/iPad devices but not directly to AppleTV, since AppleTV has tvOS operating system.



It will require to run each App to your iPhone/iPad and then use AirPlay Mirroring for the AppleTV (2nd gen or later are supported).

For iOS devices, users can get HDMI Output (without AppleTV) by using Apple’s Lightning Digital AV Adapter; or for older iOS devices an Apple Digital AV Adapter.

These two Apple's Digital AV Adapter solutions are not recommended to be used, because they can provide bit-perfect patch generation only for grayscale patches, not bit-perfect color patches.



The Apple's Digital AV Adapters issue has been added to 'Known Devices Limitations with MobileForge' web page, after consumers find out and reported these issues many times to AVSForum.com or SpectraCAL's Forum (which has been closed).




The issue has been confirmed by Joel Barsotti also, it has the lead programmer, developer and color scientist of CalMAN 4/5, but he has left SpectraCAL from October 2016.

If you will use CalMAN's MobileForge to generate patterns for a TV/Projector, you want CalMAN in Video Levels (16-235), then in the MobileForge tab (Middle Tab at the top of CalMAN) the 'Expand to PC Levels' box needs to be checked, because the video output will get compressed at the end.

Whatever iPhone/iPad device which CalMAN's MobileForge is driving works in PC Levels, then each device then converts to Video Levels when it pipes the generated pattern through the HDMI output.

When CalMAN will send command to generate 100% White 235.235.235 RGB Triplet to MobileForge App of iPhone, the iPhone will render it as 255.255.255 (RGB-Triplet) and send it to the HDMI Adapter where it will be compressed back to video levels 235.235.235 (RGB-Triplet) or 235.128.128 (YCbCr-Triplet).

Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) is not recommending to use these Apple Digital AV Adapters, as he has posted to AVSForum.com:


Before enabling the AirPlay Mirroring, the AppleTV video output must be set to YCbCr colorspace. On the Apple TV menu, go to Settings > Audio & Video > HDMI Output > YCbCr.

AppleTV has additional colorspace video output options, RGB-High and RGB-Low, but using any RGB selection, the incorrect conversion math of internal processing will increase even more the digital errors to the device video output.

Apple TV devices with proper settings can generate any RGB-Triplet combination for RGB-Video (16-235), but they can't generate for RGB-Video Extended (16-255).

There output differences over different generations of AppleTV devices also.

Below you will see a Digital Pixel Level Analysis evaluating all available colorspace video output settings of AppleTV (3rd Gen) using iPhone's AirPlay Mirroring of CalMAN's MobileForge patches, DVDO's AVLab TPG used as analyzer device.

CalMAN's ColorChecker Classic and Color Gamut (Primary & Secondary colors with 100% Saturation and 100% Stimulus Level) patch generation used for that test.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between three verification result pictures; YCbCr 4:4:4, RGB-High and RGB-Low colospace video output of AppleTV (3rd Gen) using CalMAN's MobileForge App:



As you can see, using CalMAN's MobileForge with AppleTV (3rd Gen), it can't provide a bit-perfect patch generation, so its not recommended as a patch generation solution.

Performing the same test with LightSpace Connect App using iPhone AirPlay Mirroring with AppleTV (3rd Gen), its not reporting any digital error with YCbCr colorspace video output:



As shown to the digital error graphs above, the AppleTV (3rd Gen) can be used from LightSpace Connect App users but not recommended from CalMAN's MobileForge users, at least by using the exact FW it's been tested.

AppleTV (3rd Gen), when its been used for SDR movie playback, it can provide a bit-perfect YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace video output.



Using DVDO's AVLAb TPG Pixel Analyser function and streaming the MP4 files of CalMAN's ColorChecker Classic and Color Gamut chapters from Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk using AirPlay Mirroring from iPhone or direct from AppleTV via Infuse 5 Pro video player App, it had no digital error to any measured color patch.

AppleTV 4K (5th Gen) using iPhone AirPlay Mirroring with CalMAN's MobileForge has been tested also, but it had digital errors with YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace video output:



Further testing using AppleTV 4K stopped because seems that the device adds an additional processing to the image continiously by returning fluctuating values with digital errors ranging from a theoretical minimum of 1 to a theoretical maximum of 6 per YCbCr/RGB-triplet. This means that it can't display a solid patch, each measured pixel of a solid color patch wil return different values due to that added processing the device is applying.

For that reason, AppleTV 4K is not recommended for patch generation using any supported App.

That issue has been recorded with two videos, both videos are displaying Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk MP4 Media File of CalMAN's ColorChecker Classic patches via Infuse 5 Pro App with 1080p24 YCbCr 4:4:4 and RGB-High video output.

Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) has tested AppleTV (4th Gen) using CalMAN's MobileFoge using iPhone AirPlay Mirroring and found it as bit-perfect, he has posted about this to AVSForum.com:



At this point, we can't really count to any kind of testing coming from SpectraCAL, since real digital pixel analysis by multiple sources (from professionals or home enthousiasts with reference analysers) or home users with meter measurement runs comparisons versus known references have found that using MobileForge with any supported device is not able to provide an accurate patch generation.

Problems related with Google's ChromeCast and Amazon's FireStick using CalMAN's Mobile Forge App will be explained also.

After many problems reported from any users to AVSForum related with supported devices of MobileForge App, home users who paid to buy a full license of CalMAN to be able to use MobileForge which as advertised was a bit-perfect and very low cost reference patch generation solution, Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) posted that they found at SpectraCAL problems also (so these problems were not there, when MobileForge developed and tested until home users find out all these issues?):



Generally we don't recommend any AppleTV device to be used a reference (bit-perfect) patch generation, even from LightSpace Connect users because there many different device generations, firmware and operating system versions and it's not easy all these to be tested properly when a new update will be released and installed.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 09-30-2019 at 12:06 PM.
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post #387 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 08:08 AM
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Amazon FireTV/Stick/Cube

LightSpace's Connect or CalMAN's MobileForge have Android versions for each App, they can be installed to Amazon's FireTV, FireTV Stick, FireTV Stick 4K or FireTV as all these devices are running Amazon's Fire OS (Android based).



There available also some Smart TVs with FireTV build into the TV hardware, the specific model of each Fire TV Edition is noted in the TV name, such as 'Fire TV Edition - Toshiba 4K (2018/2019)' or 'Fire TV Edition - Element 4K (2017)'.

Using FireTV build-in TV Edition is not recommended for patch generation because it will bypass the physical HDMI Input video pipeline processing stages.

Amazon FireTV can provide a bit-perfect RGB video output but it will look to the connected OLED TV EDID and decide if it will output RGB-Full or compress to RGB-Video levels.

Because the home user can't guess what it will happen with each different TV model, it will be required from the user to perform a test to find out what will be the correct calibration software setting for each App.

You can see looking the animated PNG file below how 'off' can be the patch generation when a user will use incorrect calibration software setting; to expand or not expand Video to PC Levels; from CalMAN.

CalMAN's 21-Point Grayscale Chapter used as reference from Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk for that test from a Blu-Ray Player with a bit-perfect YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace video output.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between three 21-Point Grayscale verification pictures; Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk from Blu-Ray Player (YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace output), CalMAN's MobileForge from Amazon FireTV Stick with and without Expanding of Video to PC Levels ticked from CalMAN software settings (RGB colorspace output):



Gamma tracking and Peak White output levels are highly affected, but also native Black Level and RGB Balance of Grayscale.

After finding out the correct calibration software settings per each App for the specific TV model used for that test, below you will see a Digital Pixel Level Analysis evaluating the RGB colorspace output of Amazon FireStick TB (Gen 1 or 2) between CalMAN's MobileForge and LightSpace's Connect. DVDO's AVLab TPG used as analyzer device.

CalMAN's ColorChecker Classic and Color Gamut (Primary & Secondary colors with 100% Saturation and 100% Stimulus Level) patch generation used for that test.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between two verification result pictures; Amazon FireStick TV (Gen 1 or 2) using RGB colorspace output with CalMAN's MobileForge and LightSpace's Connect Apps::



As you can see, using CalMAN's MobileForge with Amazon Fire TV (Gen 1 or 2), it can't provide a bit-perfect patch generation, so its not recommended as a patch generation solution.

Using LightSpace Connect App with Amazon Fire TV (Gen 1 or 2), its not reporting any digital error with RGB colorspace video output.

Because there available many different Amazon Fire TV devices, we can't really suggest one which we haven't tested to see if its really accurate to be used with a software patch generation App.

But we can recommend LightSpace Connect App with Amazon Fire TV (Gen 1 or 2) since its proven after testing that it can provide bit-perfect RGB output. But it will be required from the user to evaluate and see what is correct Patch Scale setting for his connect TV. The method about how to perform that test it will be explained also.

Amazon devices with proper settings can generate any RGB-Triplet combination for RGB-Video (16-235), but they can't generate for RGB-Video Extended (16-255).

If the Amazon device will send RGB-Full then the calibration software has to send 16-235 RGB-Triplet values, while when device will send RGB-Video then the software has to send 0-255 RGB values, since the compression from PC to Video Levels will be performed from the Amazon device.

For MobileForge users, CalMAN by default will send RGB-Triplet patches with Video Levels (16-235) but it has a setting to 'Expand Video Levels to PC Levels', for some TV models this has to be enabled while to other TV models to be disabled.

For LightSpace Connect users, LightSpace by default will send RGB-Triplet patches with PC Levels when Patch Scale @ LightSpace Options will have 'Min: 0 and Max: 255' values, or Video Levels when the Patch Scale will have 'Min: 16 and Max: 235' values.

The Amazon device will do the compression of the levels, not the used App, so it can generate any RGB-Triplet combination between 16-235 range, but not 0-15 (below Reference Video Black) or 236-254 (above 100% Reference White; until 109% Super White).

For that reason it can't be used as the only stand-alone pattern generation device to calibrate a display, it will require a calibration disk for checking Contrast, Brightness and Color Clipping.

For example when you adjust for Brightness, the 1-16 Flashing Bars need to be invisible, if the user will add +5 to his TV Brightness control to be able to see 17 level (0.5% Gray) Flashing Bar, this adjustment may have lift his TV native black level, when a Brightness Pattern will be generated from an Amazon device App (MobileForge or LightSpace Connect, which will clip to 16 all 1-16 levels due to compression of levels) the user can apply an incorrect adjustment because 1-15 Flashing Bars will always be invisible.

For that reason, Contrast and Color Clipping patterns generated from Amazon device will not able to display 235-235 Flashing Bars which is required when you want to check for clipping and headroom (109% Super White) since after the compression all bars 235-254 will become 235.

Setting Contrast, Brightness and checking for Color Clipping, are considered as the initial and very important steps for any calibration.

While initially MobileForge advertised as a solution which will eliminate completely the usage for any calibration disk:




...later Tyler Pruitt (Technical Evangelist for CalMAN) came to suggest that you will still need a calibration disk, while that very important detail hadn't documented to any MobileForge manual/guide, he posted to AVSForum.com:

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 10-07-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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post #388 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 08:11 AM
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Even more confused. The first post in the thread is saying MobileForge is not accurate but the post immediately above seems to be saying it is …..

Edit : nvm - I get it now
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post #389 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Even more confused. The first post in the thread is saying MobileForge is not accurate but the post immediately above seems to be saying it is …..
Maybe you see the picture where Tyler saying that ChromaCast is inaccurate and FireStick is accurate, for that reason you confused....

After users tested and find out, MobileForge is not accurate with any tested device, and there no interest from SpectraCAL to provide any fixed version, while that thread here opened for issues to be reported and users are waiting a fix, there were zero post from CalMAN side about these problem.

For that reason we test anything and we don't care about what companies advertise.

The same happened with Murideo, which over the last 3 years, there reported issues that makes it inaccurate at some colorspace/resolutions, and still we are waiting a fix... that may fix the 4:2:2 HDR2020 problem reported at 2018.

Even the file picture uploading of patterns of Six-G has errors and its not reproducing accurately the pictures you will upload, this has been reported from 2016, still has errors.

After seeing so many issues over the years, I don't trust anyone. When something will be tested, then I can talk for something is proven that is accurate.

Before long time ago, Lumagen for years were generating inaccurate patterns, CalMAN had never found any problem, but Steve Shaw informed Lumagen about that problem and Maciej Koper (as I have talked with him asking for that test) he tested with Dolby Monitor the Lumagen Mini...so later after various Lumagen FW updates, the patch generation improved....it took months of developement for digital errors to be reduced.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...rrors-etc.html
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #390 of 489 Old 09-30-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Maybe you see the picture where Tyler saying that ChromaCast is inaccurate and FireStick is accurate, for that reason you confused....

After users tested and find out, MobileForge is not accurate with any tested device, and there no interest from SpectraCAL to provide any fixed version, while that thread here opened for issues to be reported and users are waiting a fix, there were zero post from CalMAN side about these problem.

For that reason we test anything and we don't care about what companies advertise.

The same happened with Murideo, which over the last 3 years, there reported issues that makes it inaccurate at some colorspace/resolutions, and still we are waiting a fix... that may fix the 4:2:2 HDR2020 problem reported at 2018.

Even the file picture uploading of patterns of Six-G has errors and its not reproducing accurately the pictures you will upload, this has been reported from 2016, still has errors.

After seeing so many issues over the years, I don't trust anyone. When something will be tested, then I can talk for something is proven that is accurate.

Before long time ago, Lumagen for years were generating inaccurate patterns, CalMAN had never found any problem, but Steve Shaw informed Lumagen about that problem and Maciej Koper (as I have talked with him asking for that test) he tested with Dolby Monitor the Lumagen Mini...so later after various Lumagen FW updates, the patch generation improved....it took months of developement for digital errors to be reduced.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...rrors-etc.html
Yup, I get it now :}

Thanks Ted, incredible amount of info as always - will take me a while to go through and digest but I get the general picture - cheers!

Last edited by mombasa123; 09-30-2019 at 08:36 AM.
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