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post #421 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi! Unfortunately and AFAIK, all Fire TV Sticks 2K don’t have YCbCr output, only RGB which is bit perfect. Fire TV 4K has YCbCr but @baller02 tested it and found it not bit perfect while RGB output is bit perfect (if I remember correctly). You can use VLC to display whatever pattern you need, the important thing is that it has to be a bit perfect pattern on a bit perfect output.

If it has one, I would suggest you to use your laptop HDMI RGB output which is usually bit perfect.

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post #422 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 01:12 PM
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I was just picking up on what ConnecTEDDD said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Using LightSpace Connect App with Amazon Fire TV (Gen 1 or 2), its not reporting any digital error with YCbCr colorspace video output.
So is “not reported any digital errors” not the same as “bit-perfect”?

EDIT: I understand ConnecTEDDD has now corrected his post to say that “Using LightSpace Connect App with Amazon Fire TV (Gen 1 or 2), its not reporting any digital error with RGB colorspace video output.” This explains why I was confused!!

Last edited by tarbat; 10-07-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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post #423 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
So that I can just check my understanding - the LightSpace Connect App on Amazon Fire TV produces bit-perfect output for both RGB and YCBCr output? If that’s the case, is it likely that playing AVSHD709 calibration videos on an Amazon Fire TV, using VLC for example, will also be bit-perfect? Has that been tested? Or is it more likely that playing YCbCr video files in VLC will result in a YCbCr to RGB conversion before converting back to YCbCr for output for the Fire TV Stick?
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I was just picking up on what ConnecTEDDD said.
So is “not reported any digital errors” not the same as “bit-perfect”?
Its typing error to my text, I wanted to write that there no reported digital errors after the digital errors analysis with RGB colorspace.

LightSpace Connect can be bit-perfect with FireStick/TV only with RGB colorspace output, its not recommended to be used with YCbCr output, by any patch generation application.

The device when it will playback Media Files with YCbCr output it will have some digital error, while blu-ray players from OPPO/Pioneer/Panasonic/Sony for example don't have digital errors with YCbCr output.

When you playback Media Files with RGB output with Amazon, the errors are reduced down to +1-2 range.

For that reason, if you have that device for movie playback, its better idea to set it to RGB colorspace for playback also.
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Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 10-07-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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post #424 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 01:32 PM
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Okay, understand now that it was a typing error. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The device when it will playback Media Files with YCbCr output it will not have any digital error. The YCbCr digital errors are there only when you are using the device with patch generation software app.
So using the AVCHD709 patterns played through VLC on an Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K should be bit-perfect?
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post #425 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
Okay, understand now that it was a typing error. Thanks for clarifying.

So using the AVCHD709 patterns played through VLC on an Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K should be bit-perfect?
Acvhd709 are not bit perfect for all patterns, You should not use them for grayscale and cms calibration.

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post #426 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Acvhd709 are not bit perfect for all patterns, You should not use them for grayscale and cms calibration.
I didn’t realise that. I’d always thought that they were bit-perfect, as long as I ticked the “Use round down levels (AVSHD, DVE)” option in HCFR. Is that wrong now?

I was more concerned whether apps like VLC can actually play YCbCr media files and output them as YCbCr directly, or whether it went through a YCbCr to RGB conversion on the Fire TV Stick 4K before then being converted again to output as YCbCr.

Last edited by tarbat; 10-07-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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post #427 of 436 Old 10-07-2019, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For that reason, if you have that device for movie playback, its better idea to set it to RGB colorspace for playback also.
But you can't for UHD content. The only output option for 2160p is YCbCr. I've tested, and the highest resolution that allows RGB is 1080p. I wonder why that is? Maybe the Fire TV Stick 4K can't convert the YCbCr media content to RGB at high (4K) resolutions?

This is why I'm looking for a way to calibrate my TV on an HDMI input receiving YCbCr. A lot of our viewing is from the Amazon Firestick 4K, and it's nearly all UHD content, so has to be output as YCbCr. So, if possible, it makes sense for me to calibrate using the Fire TV Stick 4K device on YCbCr.

Last edited by tarbat; 10-07-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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post #428 of 436 Old 10-08-2019, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
Okay, understand now that it was a typing error. Thanks for clarifying.

So using the AVCHD709 patterns played through VLC on an Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K should be bit-perfect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Acvhd709 are not bit perfect for all patterns, You should not use them for grayscale and cms calibration.
Since you are using AVSHD, it has a mismatch to grayscale patterns (see more details reading the ''3'' here), this can be fixed from inside HCFR with a software offset, see here what you can do to fix the issue: LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings

While the software offset fix for the grayscale can be applied by HCFR, there no similar fix for CalMAN Home users.

Also the 4-Point Saturation of AVSHD is not compatible with HCFR (and there no fix about this), for example:

AVSHD 50% Red Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 190.95.95 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 191.96.96, it's 0.42 dE2000 error.

AVSHD 75% Magenta Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 203.100.203 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 202.99.202, it's 0.36 dE2000 error.

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post #429 of 436 Old 10-08-2019, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
But you can't for UHD content. The only output option for 2160p is YCbCr. I've tested, and the highest resolution that allows RGB is 1080p. I wonder why that is? Maybe the Fire TV Stick 4K can't convert the YCbCr media content to RGB at high (4K) resolutions?
You don't have RGB output for 2160p, probably because for HDR since you will need 10bit RGB, if the signal is 2160p60 RGB-Video 10bit, then the bandwidth is over 18GBps to be transferred from HDMI 2.0.

As the bandwidth is larger with 2160p signal, it will require more resources for processing also.

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post #430 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
For that reason, if you have that device for movie playback, its better idea to set it to RGB colorspace for playback also.
So, I've compared the two methods of pattern playback using the Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K.
A) AVSHD709 media files played out at YCbCr.
B) AVSHD709 media files played out at RGB.
C) For comparison, AVSHD709 media files played out from a USB drive using the TV's own media player.

B (YCbCr) and C (TV player) give almost identical results across colour primaries and saturation sweeps, within 0.3 dE. However, A (RGB) gives significantly larger errors of over 5 dE, with Cyan giving a dE of 8.4 compared to the TV's media player.

Now, I don't know how accurate the colour reproduction is using the TVs own media player, but I would have thought Panasonic might have got that right So, from my experience, using a Fire TV Stick 4K outputting RGB, is not advisable when using calibration videos like AVSHD709 which are YUV. Unless I've completely misunderstood!! I have no choice anyway, as the Fire TV Stick 4K can't output RGB at 2160p anyway.
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post #431 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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There are other calibration discs/cheap TPG out there. But again, if you don’t own a reference spectro or a colorimeter profiled to a reference spectro, it would be better for you to stick with OOTB calibration.

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post #432 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
So, I've compared the two methods of pattern playback using the Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K.
A) AVSHD709 media files played out at YCbCr.
B) AVSHD709 media files played out at RGB.
C) For comparison, AVSHD709 media files played out from a USB drive using the TV's own media player.

B (YCbCr) and C (TV player) give almost identical results across colour primaries and saturation sweeps, within 0.3 dE. However, A (RGB) gives significantly larger errors of over 5 dE, with Cyan giving a dE of 8.4 compared to the TV's media player.

Now, I don't know how accurate the colour reproduction is using the TVs own media player, but I would have thought Panasonic might have got that right So, from my experience, using a Fire TV Stick 4K outputting RGB, is not advisable when using calibration videos like AVSHD709 which are YUV. Unless I've completely misunderstood!! I have no choice anyway, as the Fire TV Stick 4K can't output RGB at 2160p anyway.
You can trust your TV USB Input for such test.

But something looks very wrong to your results.

Have you used 1080p24 output for all testing of your FireStick?

What is the black/white level from each test?

The difference you have found is very large.

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post #433 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You can trust your TV USB Input for such test.
That's good to know, and what I thought. It should also invoke the TV's YCbCr to RGB processing as well I presume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Have you used 1080p24 output for all testing of your FireStick?
Yes. The files on USB are 1080p24, and I set the Fire TV Stick to 1080p, and selected 8-bit output and frame-rate match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
What is the black/white level from each test?
Black level is 0 (OLED), white level is around 121 cd/m² on all tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The difference you have found is very large.
Agree. I was surprised at the large discrepancies. I tried the test with both Kodi and VLC.

Attached HCFR screenshot comparing RGB output to the USB TV player, and ZIP file containing the 3 calibration runs.
Click image for larger version

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File Type: zip HCFR.zip (5.3 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by tarbat; 10-11-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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post #434 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
There are other calibration discs/cheap TPG out there. But again, if you don’t own a reference spectro or a colorimeter profiled to a reference spectro, it would be better for you to stick with OOTB calibration.
Yes, OOTB is very close to perfect, but I still like to check I’ve been “playing with” colour calibration for years, back to when I had a DLP. In fact the only calibration changes I've made on my FZ952 are -4 on blue gain, and -1 on red bias.

Last edited by tarbat; 10-11-2019 at 01:00 PM.
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post #435 of 436 Old 10-11-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbat View Post
Attached HCFR screenshot comparing RGB output to the USB TV player, and ZIP file containing the 3 calibration runs.
I'm shocked of so much errors introduced with file playback with RGB output, its unreal high and its something I haven't seen before.

Usually with RGB output, there rounding/conversion/processing errors, but not so large.



This is from Pioneer reference LX-91 ($2500) blu-ray:








All above players with YCbCr output had bit-perfect output with zero errors.

For that test I used my calibration disk and DVDO AVLab TPG for digital pixel analysis.

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post #436 of 436 Old 10-12-2019, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I'm shocked of so much errors introduced with file playback with RGB output, its unreal high and its something I haven't seen before.
So, I double checked the results this morning, and the RGB output shows a large discrepancy from the very similar results obtained using a USB drive on the TV's own media player, and outputing YCbCr on the Fire TV Stick.

Click image for larger version

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The CIE diagram for the RGB output looks particularly odd:

Click image for larger version

Name:	2.jpg
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ID:	2627028
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File Type: zip HCFR.zip (6.6 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by tarbat; 10-12-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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