The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
It does do YCbCr! Just not bit-accurate YCbCr!

I think you'd face the same difficulties with getting bit-accurate YCbCr from any other alternative to be honest. Even the so-called professional meters which cost ludicrous amounts of money have had errors in them for months/years at a time.
And you would know this how?

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post #452 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 09:28 AM
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And you would know this how?
It's been tested on these solutions and look up the bit perfect issues of the Murideo Six-G pattern generator.

In other words, public knowledge at this point.
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post #453 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
It's been tested on these solutions and look up the bit perfect issues of the Murideo Six-G pattern generator.

In other words, public knowledge at this point.
So you know that the RPi4 is using the same HDMI chip set as the Murido?

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post #454 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mombasa123 View Post
Ted, I just had a thought - probably a stupid one but ....

So we know that the RPi will never do YCbCr whether SDR or HDR (RPi4).
First of all we have to see if its possible to work the RPi4 as RGB generator with newer PGenerator release. After this will be developed, the first test is to check if the RGB output is bitperfect. Next step will be to check YCbCr output.

All these its unknown when it will or if it will ever happen as the developer has to spend a lot of free time to develop something for free again.

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So, why not try one of the new Amlogic boxes with s922 chipset like Odroid N2 which natively generates YCbCr? Maybe even a Kodi (CoreElec) pattern generator addon?
The fact that one device can output perfectly a video stream using internal software players is not related with the capabilities of the same device when it will be used with custom ROM to work as patch generation device of still images.

The calibration software will send RGB values to the patch generation, so the matrix for the conversion of RGB to YCbCr is something the device is responsible to perform.
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post #455 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WTS View Post
And you would know this how?
Which of the 4 different things in my post are you asking about? Many thanks to @ajc9988 for posting to give the name of the professional very expensive meter that I had in mind, when I made my general point about how difficult it is to get bit-accurate YCrCb from devices, with errors and inaccuracies going unfixed for years and years.

It was a general comment and in no way specific to the particular hardware of anything.
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post #456 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Which of the 4 different things in my post are you asking about? Many thanks to @ajc9988 for posting to give the name of the professional very expensive meter that I had in mind, when I made my general point about how difficult it is to get bit-accurate YCrCb from devices, with errors and inaccuracies going unfixed for years and years.

It was a general comment and in no way specific to the particular hardware of anything.
"I think you'd face the same difficulties with getting bit-accurate YCbCr from any other alternative to be honest."

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post #457 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WTS View Post
"I think you'd face the same difficulties with getting bit-accurate YCbCr from any other alternative to be honest."
Already answered in the post you quoted.

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post #458 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Already answered in the post you quoted.
Well coming from an expert like yourself, sorry I must have missed it, my bad, lol.

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post #459 of 489 Old 11-07-2019, 01:58 PM
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Well coming from an expert like yourself, sorry I must have missed it, my bad, lol.
lol.

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post #460 of 489 Old 11-08-2019, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Which of the 4 different things in my post are you asking about? Many thanks to @ajc9988 for posting to give the name of the professional very expensive meter that I had in mind, when I made my general point about how difficult it is to get bit-accurate YCrCb from devices, with errors and inaccuracies going unfixed for years and years.

It was a general comment and in no way specific to the particular hardware of anything.
I think there is a distinction to be had between difficult and expensive, which is particularly poignant given the title and aims of this thread.

Making a 100% bit perfect pattern generator should be the easiest thing you can do. "All" you need is something that can drive serial IO fast enough that you can populate that IO with the correct pixel data and metadata. It's not hard to do. It is expensive, as general purpose devices (FPGAs) that could drive those speeds of serial IO are prohibitively expensive. An intermediate step is a device that can drive correctly formatted parallel data into an HDMI serializer (transmitter) chip, which is less expensive to do. Still expensive though (see Lumagen Radiance Pro, etc)

Lower cost devices are constrained by technical implementations where you may not have access to all the bits in the way you want, so compromises may have to be made. Those compromises might involve dithering, or not supporting some format, unavoidable internal conversions due to graphics architecture / pipeline limitations, etc.

The Murideo 6G product appears to be one such compromised device from what I can tell. I've seen photos of the inside. It doesn't have a 6G (600MHz) pattern generator in it from what I can tell, and this is the reason it can't support 4k DV at 60Hz, which a true 600MHz generator should be able to do. It has a Spartan 6 FPGA generating patterns, outputting parallel data to a 300MHz SIL9136 HDMI transmitter. It looks like that chip isn't actually connected to the HDMI connector if this box is capable of generating 600MHz timing, and is connected instead to a separate device that upscales the video output to 4K timing and is then connected to the connector (you can see the TMDS pairs leaving the anonymous device under a heatsink and going to the connector via the EMC filter components). So I guess at 4K60 10 bit what is actually being output by the generator chip is 1080p60 which is then scaled externally to 4K to overcome the limit in bandwidth (and hence the Dolby Vision limitations).

I guess the Murideo 6G is likely a victim of a company needing / wanting to get out a "6G" pattern generator fast and for little engineering effort, and is really a 300MHz generator bolted to something to make it look more-or-less 6G. The difficulty in making it accurate will come from the convolution in the output architecture with multiple stages that need to be made transparent.
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post #461 of 489 Old 11-08-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I think there is a distinction to be had between difficult and expensive, which is particularly poignant given the title and aims of this thread.

Making a 100% bit perfect pattern generator should be the easiest thing you can do. "All" you need is something that can drive serial IO fast enough that you can populate that IO with the correct pixel data and metadata. It's not hard to do. It is expensive, as general purpose devices (FPGAs) that could drive those speeds of serial IO are prohibitively expensive. An intermediate step is a device that can drive correctly formatted parallel data into an HDMI serializer (transmitter) chip, which is less expensive to do. Still expensive though (see Lumagen Radiance Pro, etc)

Lower cost devices are constrained by technical implementations where you may not have access to all the bits in the way you want, so compromises may have to be made. Those compromises might involve dithering, or not supporting some format, unavoidable internal conversions due to graphics architecture / pipeline limitations, etc.

The Murideo 6G product appears to be one such compromised device from what I can tell. I've seen photos of the inside. It doesn't have a 6G (600MHz) pattern generator in it from what I can tell, and this is the reason it can't support 4k DV at 60Hz, which a true 600MHz generator should be able to do. It has a Spartan 6 FPGA generating patterns, outputting parallel data to a 300MHz SIL9136 HDMI transmitter. It looks like that chip isn't actually connected to the HDMI connector if this box is capable of generating 600MHz timing, and is connected instead to a separate device that upscales the video output to 4K timing and is then connected to the connector (you can see the TMDS pairs leaving the anonymous device under a heatsink and going to the connector via the EMC filter components). So I guess at 4K60 10 bit what is actually being output by the generator chip is 1080p60 which is then scaled externally to 4K to overcome the limit in bandwidth (and hence the Dolby Vision limitations).

I guess the Murideo 6G is likely a victim of a company needing / wanting to get out a "6G" pattern generator fast and for little engineering effort, and is really a 300MHz generator bolted to something to make it look more-or-less 6G. The difficulty in making it accurate will come from the convolution in the output architecture with multiple stages that need to be made transparent.
I personally know Matt Murray, the guy who was one of the designers of the Murideo 6G and although I don't have the technical details, Matt and his father are incredible engineers. I would doubt everything you are saying or the way you are saying it is 100% accurate. It might be that was the best that could be done at that time? They recently released a Murideo 6G Gen2 which I have that has some hardware that's different. It might have a 600MHZ processing. The 6G has new firmware that was tested to be bit perfect now. Also the Murideo 7G will be out soon and i'm pretty sure it has duel 600MHZ processing. The 7G does everything and the DV test patterns are native in the box and can be updated. We had it at the last VE TV Shootout along with Matt.

I don't know enough about the technical details of the Murideo products so I can't debate the product but i'm sure if you call Murideo they will answer your questions and if not PM me and i'll get you in touch with Matt. He's a great guy and extremely helpful and he will fill in the blanks so we don't have to guess or make assumptions. There are probably very good reasons why the 6G was originally designed the way it was.

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post #462 of 489 Old 11-08-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I personally know Matt Murray, the guy who was one of the designers of the Murideo 6G and although I don't have the technical details, Matt and his father are incredible engineers. I would doubt everything you are saying or the way you are saying it is 100% accurate. It might be that was the best that could be done at that time? They recently released a Murideo 6G Gen2 which I have that has some hardware that's different. It might have a 600MHZ processing. The 6G has new firmware that was tested to be bit perfect now. Also the Murideo 7G will be out soon and i'm pretty sure it has duel 600MHZ processing. The 7G does everything and the DV test patterns are native in the box and can be updated. We had it at the last VE TV Shootout along with Matt.

I don't know enough about the technical details of the Murideo products so I can't debate the product but i'm sure if you call Murideo they will answer your questions and if not PM me and i'll get you in touch with Matt. He's a great guy and extremely helpful and he will fill in the blanks so we don't have to guess or make assumptions. There are probably very good reasons why the 6G was originally designed the way it was.
It is possibly the best they could do at the time, but more likely down to cost. There were 18G chipsets available I believe at the time of their launch of the Six-G.. Maybe the Gen2 unit is different now. I've not seen inside one of those.

Anyway, my post wasn't a downer on the Murideo product, it was an example of how there can be non-obvious limitations in a product that is otherwise highly specified from the outside. It's only at the point you start poking around inside them that you can spot where the issues may be.

This is particularly important when you're looking at integrated graphics SOC devices for the purpose of pattern generation (where this conversation originated); just because at the output there is a sausage machine that can output 12bit YUV over HDMI, doesn't mean you can get unadulterated values into those pixels. Here the Murideo served as an example of a 300MHz bottleneck, and as an example of the significant difficulties it seems they faced in getting it to be bit perfect (I know you say it is now, but for many years I understand it wasn't).

By all means if you know the guy and what I've posted isn't technically correct then get him to either post here or provide you with a "from the horse's mouth" correction for you to post as to what the hardware capabilities are and how it works. I don't have much desire to chase around after manufacturers for a device I neither own nor plan to own, it would be a waste of my time.
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post #463 of 489 Old 11-08-2019, 08:10 AM
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It is possibly the best they could do at the time, but more likely down to cost. There were 18G chipsets available I believe at the time of their launch of the Six-G.. Maybe the Gen2 unit is different now. I've not seen inside one of those.

Anyway, my post wasn't a downer on the Murideo product, it was an example of how there can be non-obvious limitations in a product that is otherwise highly specified from the outside. It's only at the point you start poking around inside them that you can spot where the issues may be.

This is particularly important when you're looking at integrated graphics SOC devices for the purpose of pattern generation (where this conversation originated); just because at the output there is a sausage machine that can output 12bit YUV over HDMI, doesn't mean you can get unadulterated values into those pixels. Here the Murideo served as an example of a 300MHz bottleneck, and as an example of the significant difficulties it seems they faced in getting it to be bit perfect (I know you say it is now, but for many years I understand it wasn't).

By all means if you know the guy and what I've posted isn't technically correct then get him to either post here or provide you with a "from the horse's mouth" correction for you to post as to what the hardware capabilities are and how it works. I don't have much desire to chase around after manufacturers for a device I neither own nor plan to own, it would be a waste of my time.
Right so the 6G wasn't bit perfect for a long time and I have no idea why it wasn't picked up until "recently" tested by some users. But I personally brought this to Matt and eventually all the problems were fixed and verified. Next time I see Matt i'll ask him about the design of the 6G and let you know.
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post #464 of 489 Old 11-08-2019, 01:13 PM
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Very interesting discussion!
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post #465 of 489 Old 11-11-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Also the Murideo 7G will be out soon and i'm pretty sure it has duel 600MHZ processing. The 7G does everything and the DV test patterns are native in the box and can be updated. We had it at the last VE TV Shootout along with Matt.
Murideo 7G, for 6000 euros for HDMI 2.0 generator, which will have up-gradable HDMI capability (so you have to pay something additionally to make it HDMI 2.1 in the future): https://avproglobal.egnyte.com/dl/iOqciijce5/

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I don't know enough about the technical details of the Murideo products so I can't debate the product but i'm sure if you call Murideo they will answer your questions and if not PM me and i'll get you in touch with Matt. He's a great guy and extremely helpful and he will fill in the blanks so we don't have to guess or make assumptions. There are probably very good reasons why the 6G was originally designed the way it was.
The Murideo Six-G GEN1 has a 300MHz SIL9136 HDMI transmitter and its a true 8-bit generator. Using conversion matrix it can generate 10/12-bit patterns.

Seems that GEN2 has 600MHz, according to Murideo:

''You may be asking "What is the difference between the three versions of the SIX-G?". Between the 1.xx and 2.xx versions, very little has changed from a functionality standpoint. The 3.xx are GEN2s, they have a re-designed power circuit so the power supply is 12 Volts, the first two versions are 5 Volts. The GEN2s also have CEC Tests (both SIX-A-GEN2 and SIX-G-GEN2s) and built in HDR test patterns on the SIX-G-GEN2. There are 3 hardware versions, BUT we will always include 3 firmware releases when they happen (i.e. 1.xx and 2.x firmware will always be identical.) You will know what firmware is compatible with your unit by only using firmware that begins with the same number your unit has (again, i.e. 1.xx, 2.xx, or 3.xx).''

GEN2 has build-in HDR patterns, this means in other words that now patterns natively generated from 600 MHz chip. If you can open your GEN2 case and post a picture, it can confirm this.
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post #466 of 489 Old 11-11-2019, 06:36 AM
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Sure, thanks for the details. As discussed, we used the 7G at the last VE TV Shootout and it is an awesome device. Besides test patterns it has built in test video as well. Very nice device but at a high price point.

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post #467 of 489 Old 11-11-2019, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Please do not dirty the thread with personal wars. Keep it informative. Thank you.

PS. I’m not referring to Ted/jrref’s informations about Murideo, which are off topic but still informative.

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post #468 of 489 Old 11-11-2019, 01:32 PM
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Did today a quick test with the FireTV 4k stick. Latest firmware.

With Light Space Connect and 1080p 8bit 60hz output both rgb limited and ycbcr 4:4:4 have 1-3 bit errors.

With ted’s pattern and 1080p 24hz ycbcr 4:4:4 8 bit output the firetv 4k stick is bit perfect.

Tested the Color Checker grayscale and some of the colors patterns.

Used the DVDO AV Lab TPG to Analyze the FireTV 4k stick output.

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post #469 of 489 Old 11-11-2019, 02:12 PM
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With ted’s pattern and 1080p 24hz ycbcr 4:4:4 8 bit output the firetv 4k stick is bit perfect.
Seems to confirm my results. Did you see the level of error I found on RGB output?
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post #470 of 489 Old 11-12-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
With ted’️s pattern and 1080p 24hz ycbcr 4:4:4 8 bit output the firetv 4k stick is bit perfect.
Seems to confirm my results. Did you see the level of error I found on RGB output?
With lightspace connect rgb gave me 1-3 digital errors and there it should be bit perfect, because no conversion from ycbcr to rgb.

I had no time time to test ted‘s patterns with rgb output. Will test it the next time.

From ycbcr 4:2:0 (ted’s patterns) to rgb I expect rounding errors.

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post #471 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 09:24 AM
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My brain still hurts from reading the Calman threads and this thread.

As I still decide between a 77 LG C9 or Sony A9G I wanted to explore doing my own calibration. I am lucky to be in an area that D-Nice has done several of my TVs, but seeing as I have a i1 Pro 2 spending $145 is quick way to see if I would be happy or need to have D-Nice come. Even if I have D-Nice come might be nice to run Calman Home for the first 200 hours until D-Nice comes.

The question is what is the best most cost effective bit perfect test pattern generator that Calman can drive the patterns as needed? It seems like YCrCr would be ideal, but probably not realistic at a reasonable price?

Even if I get the LG it seems like you need an external generator if you want the pre-post readings.

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post #472 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
My brain still hurts from reading the Calman threads and this thread.

As I still decide between a 77 LG C9 or Sony A9G I wanted to explore doing my own calibration. I am lucky to be in an area that D-Nice has done several of my TVs, but seeing as I have a i1 Pro 2 spending $145 is quick way to see if I would be happy or need to have D-Nice come. Even if I have D-Nice come might be nice to run Calman Home for the first 200 hours until D-Nice comes.

The question is what is the best most cost effective bit perfect test pattern generator that Calman can drive the patterns as needed? It seems like YCrCr would be ideal, but probably not realistic at a reasonable price?

Even if I get the LG it seems like you need an external generator if you want the pre-post readings.
You could do YCbCr manual calibrations for SDR with your OPPO and Ted's calibration disk. I would submit that your first priority should be to purchase a decent colorimeter such as the I1 Display Pro (I1D3), either Retail or OEM. Trust me, even with a good pattern generator, the I1 Pro and Pro 2 are S-L-O-W and don't read the dark end very well. With a colorimeter, you gain speed and the ability to read much better down low. You would use your Pro 2 to enhance the colorimeter's accuracy by profiling the I1D3 to it.

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Last edited by Rolls-Royce; 11-16-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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post #473 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 09:42 AM
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Did today a quick test with the FireTV 4k stick. Latest firmware.

With Light Space Connect and 1080p 8bit 60hz output both rgb limited and ycbcr 4:4:4 have 1-3 bit errors.

With ted’s pattern and 1080p 24hz ycbcr 4:4:4 8 bit output the firetv 4k stick is bit perfect.

Tested the Color Checker grayscale and some of the colors patterns.

Used the DVDO AV Lab TPG to Analyze the FireTV 4k stick output.
I don't have a FireTV stick 4k or other, but my question to you is what streaming source content is going to be 24hz. Isn't most streaming 60hz.

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post #474 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 09:56 AM
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You could do YCbCr manual calibrations for SDR with your OPPO and Ted's calibration disk. I would submit that your first priority should be to purchase a decent colorimeter such as the I1 Display Pro (I1D3), either Retail or OEM. Trust me, even with a good pattern generator, the I1 Pro and Pro 2 are S-L-O-W and don't read the dark end very well. With a colorimeter, you gain speed and the ability to read much better down low. You would use your Pro 2 to enhance the colorimeter's accuracy by profiling the I1D3 to it.
I misspoke, this is what I own X-Rite i1Display Pro (EODIS3) that I use to calibrate my monitors with DisplayCal . It is 3 years old and I use it a couple of times a year and then stays in my drawer.

This is what I bought retail;

https://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-EODIS3.../dp/B0055MBQOW

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post #475 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 10:14 AM
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I don't have a FireTV stick 4k or other, but my question to you is what streaming source content is going to be 24hz. Isn't most streaming 60hz.
There’s a lot of content on Netflix, Rakuten, Amazon, etc. that’s 24p. Although the Netflix app on a FireTV Stick 4k outputs Netflix 24p content as 60p
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post #476 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Did today a quick test with the FireTV 4k stick. Latest firmware.

With Light Space Connect and 1080p 8bit 60hz output both rgb limited and ycbcr 4:4:4 have 1-3 bit errors.

With ted’️s pattern and 1080p 24hz ycbcr 4:4:4 8 bit output the firetv 4k stick is bit perfect.

Tested the Color Checker grayscale and some of the colors patterns.

Used the DVDO AV Lab TPG to Analyze the FireTV 4k stick output.
I don't have a FireTV stick 4k or other, but my question to you is what streaming source content is going to be 24hz. Isn't most streaming 60hz.
At the moment only amazon prime video content and Kodi can do framerate matching.

Other apps will you use the default frequency, in most cases 60hz.

Normally movies are 24hz and normal TV content 60 or 50 Hz.

Apple TV 4k does framerate matching for all apps. Netflix app 24 hz for 24 hz movies and for example 50 hz for european tv shows.Homescreen is set to sdr 4k 60hz in my case.

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Last edited by baller02; 11-16-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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post #477 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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There’s a lot of content on Netflix, Rakuten, Amazon, etc. that’s 24p. Although the Netflix app on a FireTV Stick 4k outputs Netflix 24p content as 60p
Okay, learned something new today, thanks.

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post #478 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 10:27 AM
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[QUOTE=baller02;58830008]At the moment only amazon prime video content and Kodi can do framerate matching.

Other apps will you use the default frequency, in most cases 60hz.

Normally movies are 24hz and normal TV content 60 or 50 Hz.

Apple TV 4k does framerate matching for all apps. Netflix app 24 hz for 24 hz movies and for example 50 hz for european tv shows.Homescreen is set to sdr 4k 60hz in my case.[/QUOTE

thanks,

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post #479 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 11:12 AM
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Folks should distinguish really between 23.976p and 24.0p with respect to these streaming devices.
AppleTV plays back 23.976p and 24.0p content all at 23.976p (if you have framerate matching enabled). It doesn't actually have 24.0p output (despite the UI looking like it has 24p out).
This causes a dropped frame every ~42seconds for 24.0p content played at 23.976p.

Content has historically been predominantly 23.976p so this wasn't an issue. However Netflix are increasingly - freed from the constraints of what was a historic kludge for NTSC - distributing movies in 24.0p. Many of the recent Netflix releases are affected by this issue on the AppleTV and "it ain't pretty". There are even some 24.0p titles in Apple's own Itunes library (Highlander 30th Anniversary Edition for example, but I'm not owning up to having bought that...).

There is a similar distinction for 59.94p vs 60p. (likewise, Apple only properly support 59.94p, though this is very rarely an issue).
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post #480 of 489 Old 11-16-2019, 11:16 AM
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Folks should distinguish really between 23.976p and 24.0p with respect to these streaming devices.
AppleTV plays back 23.976p and 24.0p content all at 23.976p (if you have framerate matching enabled). It doesn't actually have 24.0p output (despite the UI looking like it has 24p out).
This causes a dropped frame every ~42seconds for 24.0p content played at 23.976p.

Content has historically been predominantly 23.976p so this wasn't an issue. However Netflix are increasingly - freed from the constraints of what was a historic kludge for NTSC - distributing movies in 24.0p. Many of the recent Netflix releases are affected by this issue on the AppleTV and "it ain't pretty". There are even some 24.0p titles in Apple's own Itunes library (Highlander 30th Anniversary Edition for example, but I'm not owning up to having bought that...).

There is a similar distinction for 59.94p vs 60p. (likewise, Apple only properly support 59.94p, though this is very rarely an issue).
interesting, thanks

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