The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Only for colors or also for grayscale?

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post #62 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 01:52 AM
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Sorry I meant the rpi ycbcr.
Also interesting would be the intel hd graphics with ycbcr and the dvdo with ycbcr.

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post #63 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Ma figurati Miki.
On my ATV YCbCr is the less accurate. I wonder if there's anything wrong with my B7.
It's hard to say only using probe measurements. What have you measured and how?

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post #64 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
It's hard to say only using probe measurements. What have you measured and how?
These are the old screenshots posted in April.
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post #65 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
It's hard to say only using probe measurements. What have you measured and how?
These are the old screenshots posted in April.
I’ve got the same results with my atv 4k and LG Oled C7.

I will measure again with my Panasonic fzw 804. Maybe LG adds the errors.

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post #66 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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From these shots RGB looks better, two questions:

- what TPG have you used to calibrate at that time?
- have you used your bluray player to read Ted's pattern?

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post #67 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 02:52 AM
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At the time I used Ted patterns via USB. And Mobile Forge on ATV. But from earlier tests results are the same with Raspberry and Ted patterns within Infuse instead of MobileForge.

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post #68 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
I’ve got the same results with my atv 4k and LG Oled C7.

I will measure again with my Panasonic fzw 804. Maybe LG adds the errors.
Yes, please do it.

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post #69 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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As soon as possible I'll check ATV 4K YCbCr/RGB High output on my 2017 LG LED which is sharing (I guess) the same OLED elecronics.

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post #70 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
At the time I used Ted patterns via USB.
What color space is USB input using? Please, measure Ted's disc Color checker classic via bluray player and the same patterns via USB. If there's any difference then USB is doing something.

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post #71 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 04:16 AM
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I don't own a bluray player. I'm a streaming guy
Also, i do stream Ted's patterns over my NAS. So USB isn't involved.
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Last edited by MrRobotoPlus; 11-12-2018 at 04:19 AM.
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post #72 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
I’ve got the same results with my atv 4k and LG Oled C7.

I will measure again with my Panasonic fzw 804. Maybe LG adds the errors.
Yes, please do it.
I’ve tested rgb and ycbcr with ted’s patterns on my apple tv 4k with my Panasonic fzw 804.

The same green push like on the C7.

On the C7 I got with the rpi and ycbcr also different results compared to rgb.
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post #73 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Only for colors or also for grayscale?
This was with the ted Patterns or mobile forge?

I’ve checked my rpi calibration with the ted Patterns on the atv and white was exactly the same as on the rpi.

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post #74 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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MobileForge.
Within what color space you measured Ted’s pattern: YCbCr or RGB?

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post #75 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
On the C7 I got with the rpi and ycbcr also different results compared to rgb.
As stated before YCbCr of the RPi is a long way off.

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post #76 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
MobileForge.
Within what color space you measured Ted’s pattern: YCbCr or RGB?
RGB high on the apple tv with rec.709.

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post #77 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:54 AM
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Did you tested the atv 4k with ted patterns and rgb high?

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post #78 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:57 AM
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I’ve done my hdr10 calibration with the rpi rgb and hdfury. The atv 4k outputs hdr10 with ycbcr ( also if rgb high is set) surprisingly the rgb balance (masciola patterns played with mrmc) is the same as on the rpi rgb

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post #79 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
The atv 4k outputs hdr10 with ycbcr ( also if rgb high is set)
That is a bug I had months ago. Solved with tvOS update and reset to factory settings.
Try this to confirm the bug: set your TV HDMI input (where your atv is connected) to rgb limited 16-235), set your atv to rgb high, play a movie from the app Movies. If you see wrong colors you got the bug. That will also justify the fact that you measured correct white with rgb high.

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post #80 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 12:57 PM
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[QUOTE=Anger.miki;57097530]
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
The atv 4k outputs hdr10 with ycbcr ( also if rgb high is set)/QUOTE]
That is a bug I had months ago. Solved with tvOS update and reset to factory settings.
Try this to confirm the bug: set your TV HDMI input (where your atv is connected) to rgb limited 16-235), set your atv to rgb high, play a movie from the app Movies. If you see wrong colors you got the bug. That will also justify the fact that you measured correct white with rgb high.
I have the atv at rgb high my tv is set to rgb limited. Don’t see wrong colors with the apple movie app. Latest tvos. The Panasonic can set limited and full range independ for rgb and ycbcr so I’m sure he outputs rgb for sdr and ycbcr for hdr10.

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post #81 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 01:06 PM
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There's no bug. ATV outputs HDR and DV only in ycbcr by design because the UI works at 60Hz and as you can see here, lg oled, for example can work at 10bit 60Hz only in ycbcr. Which is the ATV 4K mode OOTB for the UI. Match frame rate and match dynamic range has been added later as disabled options.

https://www.lg.com/uk/support/produc...8590776-others

The bug was for SDR. At the time the RGB setting was affecting the UI only and was reverting back to ycbcr when a media player was played.

What baler02 is saying is that the ycbcr output in HDR/DV is accurate and I can confirm. Ycbcr isn't accurate in SDR.

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Last edited by MrRobotoPlus; 11-12-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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post #82 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 03:20 PM
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Does the atv 4k now output 10bit for hdr10?
In the past it used 12 bit for hdr10.

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post #83 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Does the atv 4k now output 10bit for hdr10?
In the past it used 12 bit for hdr10.
12bit, mistyped.

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post #84 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
What baler02 is saying is that the ycbcr output in HDR/DV is accurate and I can confirm. Ycbcr isn't accurate in SDR.
The bug was for SDR, I surely couldn’t say the contrary because my ATV is connected to my Kuro which is SDR only.
Once again and for the last time: ATV 4K is not accurate AS TPG with any output. You guys pushed me to tell you what would be the output with less errors and I answered. Now, if you want to analyze a signal you MUST buy a signal analyzer. You can’t do that with your i1D3. It might give you a clue not a certainty. Anyway, you are free to use whatever TPG you want. Just don’t pretend your TV is accurate, it won’t. Read better and carefully the first post, also give a look at dE between outputs. If you need me to do more testing then ask what test you like me to do.
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post #85 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
The bug was for SDR, I surely couldn’t say the contrary because my ATV is connected to my Kuro which is SDR only.
Once again and for the last time: ATV 4K is not accurate AS TPG with any output. You guys pushed me to tell you what would be the output with less errors and I answered. Now, if you want to analyze a signal you MUST buy a signal analyzer. You can’t do that with your i1D3. It might give you a clue not a certainty. Anyway, you are free to use whatever TPG you want. Just don’t pretend your TV is accurate, it won’t. Read better and carefully the first post, also give a look at dE between outputs. If you need me to do more testing then ask what test you like me to do.
None of us is saying ATV is accurate or it is ok as a TPG or undervalue you great post. We are just trying to understand why you get better results in ycbcr and we don't. I think it is not so hard to understand. If the only answer is "Buy a 1K € Signal Analyzer", well, then there's no room for discussion here.

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post #86 of 243 Old 11-12-2018, 11:56 PM
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The test results with rgb high and ted patterns would be interesting for the atv 4k.

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post #87 of 243 Old 11-13-2018, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
The bug was for SDR, I surely couldn’t say the contrary because my ATV is connected to my Kuro which is SDR only.
Once again and for the last time: ATV 4K is not accurate AS TPG with any output. You guys pushed me to tell you what would be the output with less errors and I answered. Now, if you want to analyze a signal you MUST buy a signal analyzer. You can’t do that with your i1D3. It might give you a clue not a certainty. Anyway, you are free to use whatever TPG you want. Just don’t pretend your TV is accurate, it won’t. Read better and carefully the first post, also give a look at dE between outputs. If you need me to do more testing then ask what test you like me to do.
None of us is saying ATV is accurate or it is ok as a TPG or undervalue you great post. We are just trying to understand why you get better results in ycbcr and we don't. I think it is not so hard to understand. If the only answer is "Buy a 1K € Signal Analyzer", well, then there's no room for discussion here.
The results are with mobile forge and he got a dE of 1 for white for ycbcr.

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post #88 of 243 Old 11-13-2018, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
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You are misunderstanding. I don’t get better results with YCbCr, I have analyzed the RGB and YCbCr signals of the ATV 4K. What my analysis is telling to you is that with that device the signal is fluctuating. That means that one pixel has a value and the next one has another and so on. The YCbCr signal resulted slightly better because, probably by chance, I caught the right pixels! Maybe if I repeat the test RGB would get better results? Who cares? It will never be bit accurate! Human eye can’t notice that because it stays under dE of 1, but that just adds to measurable calibration dE and not directly measurable probes dE. Moral of the story: i1D3 not profiled to a reference spectro (I know baller02 got his i1d3 profiled to a Jeti) + not accurate TPG dE + normal calibration dE = not accurate TV/Wasting time/funny hobby/training.
No, there’s no discussion but not because I don’t like to argue (I’m Italian like you, we are masters of discussions) but because when things are measured scientifically there’s nothing to discuss. Things are like they are until someone demonstrates scientifically the contrary. But again, I’m telling you that because I’m trying to help you, probably even with a bit accurate TPG you won’t get overall accuracy because of your not profiled colorimeter and possibly your C7 got one PM more accurate OOTB.
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post #89 of 243 Old 11-13-2018, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I have just integrated the first post with:

11.13.2018 UPDATE: Obviously, if ATV 4K is the only TPGable device you own you have no choice than use it. My only recommendation is to NOT measure the patches produced by it in contact mode, the more patch area you measure the more the digital errors will be reduced... forewarned is forearmed.
Since there are still some doubts about ATV 4K behavior with YCbCr/RGB high output, I filmed two videos, both displaying Ted's Color Checker Classic Media file via Infuse 5 Pro App with:
1) ATV 4K at 1080p 24 Hz YCbCr output
2) ATV 4K at 1080p 24 Hz RGB high output

NOTE: Except Rpi, I tested all devices with Ted's Color Checker Classic media files (or BD for my BD player) and all of them showed solid triplets except ATV 4K.

END OF 11.13.2018 UPDATE

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG

Last edited by Anger.miki; 11-13-2018 at 03:06 AM.
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post #90 of 243 Old 11-13-2018, 04:22 AM
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Thanks for the Tests!

Which FireTV Stick did you tested, there are 2 or3 available.
Can you test your laptop with ycbcr and Calman pattern window?

Panasonic OLED55FZW 804
i1 Display Pro OEM 2018 profiled by Jeti 1501
i1 Pro 2, DVDo AVLab TPG, HD Fury Integral
Oppo UDP203

Last edited by baller02; 11-13-2018 at 04:41 AM.
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