2018 Sony Master Series LCD Calibration Thread - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
After you connect the laptop and configure the upscale, disconnect the HDMI cable and reconnect it. Then continue......

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Now if you could only explain why this would make a difference... The upscale is configured before I connect the laptop, and the display clearly shows it is getting a 2160p signal. I am not saying I won't try this, but unless there is a believable reason why this makes a difference, it sounds a bit like snake oil.
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post #872 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Now if you could only explain why this would make a difference... The upscale is configured before I connect the laptop, and the display clearly shows it is getting a 2160p signal. I am not saying I won't try this, but unless there is a believable reason why this makes a difference, it sounds a bit like snake oil.
You clearly said you connect the laptop then configure the upscale.

If that's what you do then disconnect/reconnect of the HDMI re-establishes the connection.

Why are you always skeptical with everything. Having an engineer background you should be a creative thinker.

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post #873 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
You clearly said you connect the laptop then configure the upscale.

If that's what you do then disconnect/reconnect of the HDMI re-establishes the connection.

Why are you always skeptical with everything. Having an engineer background you should be a creative thinker.

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My point is that the display shows it is receiving a 2160p signal. Regardless of whether the laptop was connected before configuring the AVR up-scaling, or the other way around, if the display says 2160p, then that is the signal it is receiving. And engineers are not creative thinkers, they are logical thinkers. Disconnecting and re-connecting the HDMI cable to force a handshake is not logical to me if the display is already showing 2160p. I would never have thought to do this.
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post #874 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
My point is that the display shows it is receiving a 2160p signal. Regardless of whether the laptop was connected before configuring the AVR up-scaling, or the other way around, if the display says 2160p, then that is the signal it is receiving. And engineers are not creative thinkers, they are logical thinkers. Disconnecting and re-connecting the HDMI cable to force a handshake is not logical to me if the display is already showing 2160p. I would never have thought to do this.
If the engineers only thought logical at my work things would never get done. You need both gifts.
I only went by what you explained. Switching resolutions while connected is what was pointed out as the potential issue from Tom which was slightly different for me. Connecting after the upscale is configured is the preferred way as it establishes the link at that resolution.
Anyway, I found what I found and what works for me and if it doesn't work for you that's fine. I post to help the community and that's all.

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post #875 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
If the engineers only thought logical at my work things would never get done. You need both gifts.
I only went by what you explained. Switching resolutions while connected is what was pointed out as the potential issue from Tom which was slightly different for me. Connecting after the upscale is configured is the preferred way as it establishes the link at that resolution.
Anyway, I found what I found and what works for me and if it doesn't work for you that's fine. I post to help the community and that's all.

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And I mean no disrespect by trying to understand the logic of your recommendations. Just so I understand, I should:

1. Configure the AVR for 4K/60p up-concerting.
2. Then connect the laptop.
3. Verify that the display is receiving a 2160p signal (by pressing the Display button on the remote).

Is that correct? Or is there another point where I should be unplugging and reconnecting the HDMI cable?

And a couple of follow-up questions:

- Do you always run the signal through your AVR, or do you connect the laptop directly to the display?
- After you have loaded CalMAN for Bravia, does the remote’s Display button still show the input resolution (recall I observed that the button didn’t do anything)?
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post #876 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
And I mean no disrespect by trying to understand the logic of your recommendations. Just so I understand, I should:



1. Configure the AVR for 4K/60p up-concerting.

2. Then connect the laptop.

3. Verify that the display is receiving a 2160p signal (by pressing the Display button on the remote).



Is that correct? Or is there another point where I should be unplugging and reconnecting the HDMI cable?



And a couple of follow-up questions:



- Do you always run the signal through your AVR, or do you connect the laptop directly to the display?

- After you have loaded CalMAN for Bravia, does the remote’s Display button still show the input resolution (recall I observed that the button didn’t do anything)?
Yes to 1,2,3.

I always go through my AVR.

I'm not sure on your last question. In my case I output 2160 so I personally haven't tested using the upscale of the AVR. I'm not home this weekend and all week I'll be gone for work so I wouldn't be able to test for a couple weeks. I think Tom said he was gonna test it to day.


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post #877 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yes to 1,2,3.

I always go through my AVR.

I'm not sure on your last question. In my case I output 2160 so I personally haven't tested using the upscale of the AVR. I'm not home this weekend and all week I'll be gone for work so I would be able to test for a couple weeks. I think Tom said he was gonna test it to day.


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OK, I’m not going to mess with it any more for now.
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post #878 of 889 Old 07-27-2019, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I’m not going to mess with it any more for now.
If your happy don't worry. What we are seeing is noticable in content for us.

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post #879 of 889 Old 07-28-2019, 08:42 AM
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2018 Sony Master Series LCD Calibration Thread

Something that should be discussed clearly is that Sony sets the black level of the tv. Neither the metered readings of black level or the calibration of the display changes the lowest black level of the tv. Calman does nothing with the calibration of “black”.

The black level can be increased however and we’ve demonstrated that it can happen in error.

I believe the SDR black level floor is approx .051 @ 108nits or .056 @ 138 nits. We’ve seen those black level readings increase almost 25-30% because of an error in either the HDMI stream at 1080 or the displays handling of 1080 (perhaps something else but it appears to be one of those 2)

The reported contrast ratio in Calman is approx 2450/1 @ 120 nit target. Looking back at various calibrations I’ve done, both my black level and contrast ratio as a result have varied to as low as 1650/1.

If you have the ability, do your calibrations at 4k and don’t do any resolution switching to 1080. Initialize your HDMI connection after setting up at 4k. If you are seeing .08 blacks, something is wrong. The tv can do better. This error increases readings up to the 30% pattern and this is the reason we should try to get black to generate correctly. Remember, Calman doesn’t impact black but a raised black is an indicator of raised steps in the grayscale up to 30%. The steps starting at 4.6 (in 20pt) are impacted by autocal.

What’s the impact of this? I’m not 100% I can explain that in terms of PQ but logic tells you that a calibration done with elevated blacks and shadows is not going to be correct. Does the tv elevate black with normal content?? Not sure but an incorrect calibration applied to to a stream with normal blacks isn’t going to be correct either.

I’ve eliminated any 1080p being fed to the display as a precaution.

I think my 75 Z9F looks better than ever after dialing this in. I’m being careful with this analysis and statement. I’m 100% that it’s true.





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post #880 of 889 Old 07-28-2019, 09:02 AM
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So what do you recommend if, even after following the guidelines given by you and @shoman94 , I still cannot improve upon the .08 black levels? Do you attribute this to the AVR up-scaling (I assume you are feeding the 2160p signal directly from the laptop to the display)? If you think this is the cause, then I am SOL, because it would be difficult for me to borrow a laptop, or purchase a new one. Or do you think there is still something wrong with the procedure I am using?
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post #881 of 889 Old 07-28-2019, 10:21 AM
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I am feeding 2160 direct but was able to break it by switching to 1080 which resulted in the elevated black.

I would try what Shoman suggested; get things setup correctly with your laptop at 1080 thru your AVR set to 4k. After your AVR is set to 4k, unplug the cable between the tv and the AVR and let them sync fresh at 4k. Then go into Calman.

It should work at 1080 Jerry but there’s definitely something going on. Wish I could provide more specific assistance other than what I’ve been able to do.




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post #882 of 889 Old 07-28-2019, 08:25 PM
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OK, I gave it another try this evening. I did two things differently: first, I forced an HDMI handshake immediately prior to running the Pre-cal measurements. Second, I used a target of 120nits, vs. the 150nits setting for the previous run.

My black level improved from .0825 to .0655. Contrast improved slightly from 2154 to 2167. However, DE2000 decreased from .17 to .33, and the gamma log curve has something strange going on at the upper end. So, I am not convinced that this calibration is better than the last one. Also, I think the improved black level reading is the result of the lower nit target, and not the HDMI handshake.
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post #883 of 889 Old 07-29-2019, 05:37 AM
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OK, I gave it another try this evening. I did two things differently: first, I forced an HDMI handshake immediately prior to running the Pre-cal measurements. Second, I used a target of 120nits, vs. the 150nits setting for the previous run.



My black level improved from .0825 to .0655. Contrast improved slightly from 2154 to 2167. However, DE2000 decreased from .17 to .33, and the gamma log curve has something strange going on at the upper end. So, I am not convinced that this calibration is better than the last one. Also, I think the improved black level reading is the result of the lower nit target, and not the HDMI handshake.


The only way to know for sure would have been to run it at the same nits target. Based on my previous calibration runs it looks like you still have the 1080p error and I’m guessing upscaling in the AVR doesn’t fix that. I haven’t tested it yet but I’ll try today.

Regarding calibration dE, I have more accurate results at 160 nits but we’re in the imperceptible range as far as color and grayscale go. I wouldn’t fret those dE values at 120nits. It would be nice to see your results with a native 4k output from a PC. I understand you don’t have a way to deal with that. Don’t worry about it. I was more concerned when you said your black level was up in the .08 area. The error at 120nits isn’t bad.


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post #884 of 889 Old 07-29-2019, 06:50 AM
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It would be easy to test my theory that the nit level affects the black level. The black level is calculated with the first reading on the Grayscale test. I could easily set 120 nits, start the Grayscale test, observe the black level reading, and then stop the Grayscale test with completing it. Then set 150 nits, and repeat. Perhaps try with 200 nits as well. This simple test will see what the correlation between the nit target and black level is.
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post #885 of 889 Old 07-29-2019, 06:57 AM
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It would be easy to test my theory that the nit level affects the black level. The black level is calculated with the first reading on the Grayscale test. I could easily set 120 nits, start the Grayscale test, observe the black level reading, and then stop the Grayscale test with completing it. Then set 150 nits, and repeat. Perhaps try with 200 nits as well. This simple test will see what the correlation between the nit target and black level is.


Black level increases as nits increase because the backlight increases. What we don’t want is any artificial increase due to to a scaling error.

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post #886 of 889 Old 07-29-2019, 07:27 AM
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Black level increases as nits increase because the backlight increases. What we don’t want is any artificial increase due to to a scaling error.
Do you have a recommendation WRT how I could determine whether I can see a difference in .08 and .06 black levels? I have the Spears&Munsil version 3 test disk. Is there a pattern I could display while switching between Custom for Pro1 and Pro2 picture modes, which have the two calibrations with different black levels. I am struggling to see the differences with these incremental changes, and it is difficult when watching something like a movie.
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post #887 of 889 Old 07-29-2019, 07:56 AM
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Do you have a recommendation WRT how I could determine whether I can see a difference in .08 and .06 black levels? I have the Spears&Munsil version 3 test disk. Is there a pattern I could display while switching between Custom for Pro1 and Pro2 picture modes, which have the two calibrations with different black levels. I am struggling to see the differences with these incremental changes, and it is difficult when watching something like a movie.

What I’m reporting is a perceptible improvement in black level which is most noticeable in the cinema bars. Both Shoman and I have discovered an error in black level likely introduced by 1080p signals. We believe if you calibrate with this error, you exacerbate the error.

If you don’t perceive it, don’t worry about it. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you had to do something about it. If you can calibrate without the error, that’s better. Your 120 nit black level is better than I thought it was so let it be.

My black level during calibration improved by making sure my source signal was 4k with a freshly initialized HDMI connection.


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post #888 of 889 Old 08-26-2019, 04:41 PM
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I have an older Acer Aspire model laptop that only supports 1080p output. The laptop has been showing signs of instability, and I am considering replacing it. Given the recent discussions regarding having HDMI output supporting up to 2160p resolution for generating test patterns, I would like to make sure a new laptop supports this resolution. I am also only familiar with the settings for the Intel graphics interface. I see many newer laptops have Nvidia graphics—can Nvidia be configured to properly output CalMAN test patterns?

If anyone has a recommendation for a laptop make/model that would allow me to properly output the CalMAN patterns in 2160p, it would be greatly appreciated.
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post #889 of 889 Old 08-26-2019, 05:02 PM
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Most laptops with Nvidia graphics also have the Intel. For just about any application, if you do a right click on the executable or the shortcut, you will have an option to run with intel graphics or Nvidia graphics. I had an MSI GE72 that had Nvidia 960m and now I have an Acer Predator Helios 300 with Nvidia 1050. I could do that with both. Most middle to highend Laptops now have this kind of configuration and they support 2160p for the external monitor even though the display is 1080p.
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