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post #1 of 17 Old 12-26-2018, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Best practices for calibrating LG C8 with HCFR?

Hello!

I'm considering upgrading from a TCL 55P605 (which calibrated beautifully with HCFR) to an LG C8. Having done a friend's LG C7 with HCFR (and found it problematic), and reading through posts here, I get the impression that calibrating LG OLEDs is a beast given the strange behavior of OLED panels and LG's bafflingly opaque menu system.

My goal is to end up with the most accurate calibration possible for a single input with 1080p/4K rec 709 SDR content on the ISF Dark setting and 4K BT2020 HDR10 content on the Technicolor setting (if I understand that setting correctly as being a separate calibration environment for HDR).

My calibration setup would include:

1. HCFR (latest rev)
2. i1 Display Pro
3. Huawei Matebook X Pro running windows 10 home, for taking measurements and sending test patterns
4. FYI, the sources I run daily include Nvidia Shield (I manually switch the color gamut settings depending on the content), Vero 4k+ OSMC set top box and a future UHD bluray player (haven't decided on what yet).


A few questions:

1. Is it possible to get an accurate SDR and HDR calibration on an LG C8 OLED with HCFR?
2. Is there any distinct summary of the best procedure for doing so? After reading through dozens of forum posts it's very difficult to figure out which is current and correct and integrate the diverse feedback into something that makes sense.
3. What's the best (most accurate and comprehensive) way to send test patterns to the display during calibration?
4. Can the built in generator - madTPG - do HDR correctly now? If so, what's the process for getting that working on Windows 10?
5. Is there a current list of correct settings on the panel prior to starting calibration? Seems like RTings and others are not entirely complete. Basically I want the signal to be untouched by display processing, with correct black levels.
6. At any point during the calibration or after, will I want to die and end up calling a professional calibrator?

Thank you!
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post #2 of 17 Old 12-26-2018, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Doing a bit more research, I've uncovered the following:


LG published calibration notes for 2017 displays


Custom HDR10 patterns for HCFR (and others)


Anyone have experience with this? To confirm I understand the takeaways here:


1. The LG menu settings for 20-point grayscale adjustment in HDR don't exactly conform to the corresponding points in HCFR. Thus, a special test pattern is required?

2. LG has published correct values for 2017 displays, but those values are different for 2018 displays. Are there values anywhere for 2018 displays?


I feel like I'm getting farther from understanding this.
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-02-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
I'm considering upgrading from a TCL 55P605 (which calibrated beautifully with HCFR) to an LG C8. Having done a friend's LG C7 with HCFR (and found it problematic), and reading through posts here, I get the impression that calibrating LG OLEDs is a beast given the strange behavior of OLED panels and LG's bafflingly opaque menu system.
Hi, with SDR, after initial pre-calibration using contrast/brightness/color clipping patterns, start with 2-point RGB balance, doing RGB-High with 100% White (reduce values only, keep one channel to zero) while with OLED light adjust your peak output, after back-forth move to 20-Point RGB balance (there reports the using Luminance adjustments are introducing issues to gradation/read content to some sets, see if you can ignore adjusting them). Color Gamut most of the times is problematic, use a color ramp pattern to see if its working or not.

A good way of testing what is happening with CMS adjustments enabled/disabled, is to copy paste all your ISF-Dark settings to ISF-Bright, including all 2/20-Point RGB balance but not copy CMS settings. Then using TV remote swap between the 2 picture modes while you will display some color ramp patterns to see if the picture mode with CMS adjustments is adding banding/false contouring/clipping or other issues.

When you will adjusting a Contrast pattern see if all are fine to your 'headroom'. You can see why you need to leave 'headroom' there, some picture examples of 'out of video legal range values' using a latest popular movie, see there.

Before starting RGB Balance calibration, use Grayscale measurements to find out what gamma setting has better gamma tracking of your target gamma. (measure the available gamma presets)

For HDR10, fix only RGB balance errors.

Generally run a full grayscale sweep and apply the adjustments at all controls at once once you will see the charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
My goal is to end up with the most accurate calibration possible for a single input with 1080p/4K rec 709 SDR content on the ISF Dark setting and 4K BT2020 HDR10 content on the Technicolor setting (if I understand that setting correctly as being a separate calibration environment for HDR).
For SDR use some SDR REC.709 patterns, not all calibration disks are accurate for HCFR.

For HDR10 use some HDR10 REC.2020 patterns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
My calibration setup would include:

1. HCFR (latest rev)
2. i1 Display Pro
3. Huawei Matebook X Pro running windows 10 home, for taking measurements and sending test patterns
4. FYI, the sources I run daily include Nvidia Shield (I manually switch the color gamut settings depending on the content), Vero 4k+ OSMC set top box and a future UHD bluray player (haven't decided on what yet).
A calibration using software patch generation or hardware based generators is valid when your actual movie playback devices have agreement when you will display the same patterns from them. There many times users just use software generator with untested HDMI notebook outputs without checking if they have agreement with black/white level, RGB balance, gamma, color gamut between their player and the notebook HDMI output, so they calibrate in a virtual world, where the charts say that all are fine but the image when you will playback movie content will have errors they haven't measured.

When you have agreement in measurements, then its fine to use any external patch generation solution.

Shield is proven that is a problematic device which manipulate the signal, so the only way to calibrate for Shield as a movie source is to use patterns (media files, mkv/mp4) you will stream from inside Shield, see there more details:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56440472
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57336308
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56790188

For your other sources you have to test them to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
A few questions:

1. Is it possible to get an accurate SDR and HDR calibration on an LG C8 OLED with HCFR?
2. Is there any distinct summary of the best procedure for doing so? After reading through dozens of forum posts it's very difficult to figure out which is current and correct and integrate the diverse feedback into something that makes sense.
3. What's the best (most accurate and comprehensive) way to send test patterns to the display during calibration?
4. Can the built in generator - madTPG - do HDR correctly now? If so, what's the process for getting that working on Windows 10?
5. Is there a current list of correct settings on the panel prior to starting calibration? Seems like RTings and others are not entirely complete. Basically I want the signal to be untouched by display processing, with correct black levels.
6. At any point during the calibration or after, will I want to die and end up calling a professional calibrator?
1. Sure, there thousand of people which have done the same.
2. use tips above.
3. using proper patterns which has been designed for HCFR.
4. need some testing to compare HDR10 patterns from your source vs. the ones your video card will generate.
5. copy paste is not working, some sets have native near black clipping from the factory for example which will require to adjust brightness to 62-65 range to resolve the problem, other sets are fine, using some patterns you will find out what your set will require.
6. its up to you, see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post55567396

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post #4 of 17 Old 01-02-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
1. The LG menu settings for 20-point grayscale adjustment in HDR don't exactly conform to the corresponding points in HCFR. Thus, a special test pattern is required?

2. LG has published correct values for 2017 displays, but those values are different for 2018 displays. Are there values anywhere for 2018 displays?
Any values LG have posted they don't line up with patterns which are using exact these values.

2018 models have full range values also, while HDR10 digital levels are video level based. Sometimes it can work better if you just do 2-Point RGB balance only with 2018 models, or just 1-Point using a 65% pattern, parametric adjustments will not always provide visually better picture, if you are looking only the charts, these sets require some kind of 'calibration art' to calibrate them to HD10 mode and measure and look acceptable. Sometimes it will require to sacrifice large control adjustments and have some measurable error which will provide more natural picture with real content later (without introducing anomalies).

SDR calibration is not that sensitive/problematic as HDR10.

Start with SDR calibration and later move to HDR10.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 05:28 PM
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Hello Ted, I am also getting started on a C8 using HCFR, i1D3, and Mascior's HDR patterns. I will eventually order your SDR patterns but am focusing on HDR for now.

I have adjusted the usercolors.csv file for the 2018 LG Grayscale Codes but I am wondering if something is wrong because Delta E is way off on my initial readings. I didn't want to start messing with 2pt RGB until I know everything is setup correctly.

Do the attached uncalibrated readings make sense? Thanks.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james holden View Post
Hello Ted, I am also getting started on a C8 using HCFR, i1D3, and Mascior's HDR patterns. I will eventually order your SDR patterns but am focusing on HDR for now.

I have adjusted the usercolors.csv file for the 2018 LG Grayscale Codes but I am wondering if something is wrong because Delta E is way off on my initial readings. I didn't want to start messing with 2pt RGB until I know everything is setup correctly.

Do the attached uncalibrated readings make sense? Thanks.
In the initial adjustments such as 2-pt (especially for HDR), I would turn off “w/gamma”. Delta-Y is not relevant at this point.
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In the initial adjustments such as 2-pt (especially for HDR), I would turn off “w/gamma”. Delta-Y is not relevant at this point.
Hi Dominic, are you referring to the BT.2390 setting? I unchecked that and dE is just as high.
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by james holden View Post
Hi Dominic, are you referring to the BT.2390 setting? I unchecked that and dE is just as high.
I was thinking of grey scale which has the w/ without/gamma option. Not sure if that affects user-defined patterns. Until your luminance curve closely follows the target, delta-L (and hence delta-E) will be very high but are not very indicative of the calibration accuracy. Personally I would decouple the adjustment of the luminance curve (delta-L) from the adjustment of white balance (delta-xy).

EDIT: For the initial assessment (not adjustment), just measure the luminance curves using the standard 20-pt patterns as you can see the EOTF more easily.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-04-2019 at 07:13 PM.
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I was thinking of grey scale which has the w/ without/gamma option. Not sure if that affects user-defined patterns. Until your luminance curve closely follows the target, delta-L (and hence delta-E) will be very high but are not very indicative of the calibration accuracy. Personally I would decouple the adjustment of the luminance curve (delta-L) from the adjustment of white balance (delta-xy).

EDIT: For the initial assessment (not adjustment), just measure the luminance curves using the standard 20-pt patterns as you can see the EOTF more easily.
Yeah I am using Ryan's files specifically for LG grayscale so I don't see a w/gamma option I guess.

It sounds like you are telling me to ignore dE for HDR calibration purposes, yes? If so, 2 questions: How do I bring the luminance curve into target range? And if I am ignoring dE, how do I adjust 2-pt RGB? I thought a dE value close to 0 is what tells me when RGB is correct.
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-04-2019, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james holden View Post
Yeah I am using Ryan's files specifically for LG grayscale so I don't see a w/gamma option I guess.

It sounds like you are telling me to ignore dE for HDR calibration purposes, yes? If so, 2 questions: How do I bring the luminance curve into target range? And if I am ignoring dE, how do I adjust 2-pt RGB? I thought a dE value close to 0 is what tells me when RGB is correct.
Ignore delta-L for 2-pt. Just make R=G=B.
EDIT: Note that Ted recommended
Quote:
For HDR10, fix only RGB balance errors.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-04-2019 at 09:46 PM.
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-05-2019, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james holden View Post
Hello Ted, I am also getting started on a C8 using HCFR, i1D3, and Mascior's HDR patterns. I will eventually order your SDR patterns but am focusing on HDR for now.

I have adjusted the usercolors.csv file for the 2018 LG Grayscale Codes but I am wondering if something is wrong because Delta E is way off on my initial readings. I didn't want to start messing with 2pt RGB until I know everything is setup correctly.

Do the attached uncalibrated readings make sense? Thanks.
Hi, don't use BT.2390 tone mapping, this is useful for projector users.

Select REC.2020/ST.2084 as targett gamut/EOTF.

Usually using only 1 or 2-Point RGB balance can provide better results from 20-Point RGB balance, the poor calibration control design don't allow large adjustments, so it can happen to get good dE but poor picture with a lot of issues when you will playback content. If you perform 20-Point RGB balance, each control has its own safe-working-range where it will not add issues to content, poor gradation,false contouring/posterization etc.

The quickest way and surely problem free is to only perform RGB-High (RGB errors fix only) using a 65% pattern. It will minimize your errors with spending only such little time (keep OLED Light/Contrast @ 100).
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Thanks Ted, I want to make sure I understand you correctly because that method seems pretty simple...

Instead of using the LG Oled Grayscale slides from Ryan's disc, you want me to use the 65% HDR Grayscale window from his disc and adjust Gain and Bias/Offset until that window reads close to 0 dE? This is essentially a 1-point Grayscale calibration unless I am mistaken.

What about Primaries, Secondaries, etc? It seems crazy that the only adjustment needed on the C8 is a 1-point on 65% window.
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-05-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by james holden View Post
Thanks Ted, I want to make sure I understand you correctly because that method seems pretty simple...

Instead of using the LG Oled Grayscale slides from Ryan's disc, you want me to use the 65% HDR Grayscale window from his disc and adjust Gain and Bias/Offset until that window reads close to 0 dE? This is essentially a 1-point Grayscale calibration unless I am mistaken.

What about Primaries, Secondaries, etc? It seems crazy that the only adjustment needed on the C8 is a 1-point on 65% window.
Only 65% pattern using RGB-High controls.

You can't really do anything for HDR10 with colors adjustments, for tone/gamut mapping is responsible the generic correction the panel is using internally.

Only RGB balance you can do for grayscale.

If you see that helps to do 2-point Grayscale then see what kind of pattern will balance better the low end, but there no align of patterns vs. controls, so it can take a long time to do multiple-point adjustment (20p), for that reason I suggested 1p only.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james holden View Post
It seems crazy that the only adjustment needed on the C8 is a 1-point on 65% window.
It’s always a good idea to assess how things look after the basic adjustments, prior to doing further adjustments.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-05-2019 at 08:58 AM.
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post #15 of 17 Old 01-05-2019, 08:58 AM
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Thanks guys, I will adjust RGB-High using 65% pattern when I get a chance.
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Can you report your findings for doing a 1 point adjustment at 65?

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post #17 of 17 Old 07-09-2019, 11:44 AM
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Can you report your findings for doing a 1 point adjustment at 65?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

I achieved better results with a 2 point adjustment for both HDR and DV (but only RGB balance, no correction of luminance errors!).
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