iColor Display EODIS3 + HCFR = Red tint, Alternatives ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 8 Old 01-05-2019, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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iColor Display EODIS3 + HCFR = Red tint, Alternatives ?

Hi avsforum members,

I am currently looking into buying a new probe for calibrating my LG OLED.
For my last two plasmas, I used a 10yr old DTP94 which probably is no good anymore I suppose, at least with near blacks - Or is there a possibility to still use it?! If not, I am interested in acquiring an x-Rite iColor Display (EODIS3), but have stumbled upon a couple of mentions on the German hifi-forum message board that there was a problem in using it with HCFR. According to this, for whatever reason that combination would yield a too low reading on red and consequently a reddish tint to the calibration result. This had been confirmed by several members over there, but I have not come across that on the anglo-saxon forums such as this... Last couple of posts discussing this on hifi-forum are well over a year old, so maybe this is even hold hat?!


An alternate route would be to buy software such as Chromapure which is also being bundled with the probe. They even offer a "PRO" version of the probe with an individual profile and discount on re-calibrating the probe - but I have had good results with HCFR and my DTP94 and am used to this workflow so I am not too eager about buying extra software that from what I read has its strengths in the color management space, and area where my LG OLED E6 struggles after all so I am not sure it will be much of an improvement.


I would be very grateful if anyone could share their insights on this matter, and maybe confirm that using an EODIS3 with HCFR should yield good results.
Thanks & Cheers
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post #2 of 8 Old 01-07-2019, 10:59 AM
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I have the i1D3 and use HCFR. I have no such problem. If anything it looks like my meter has a bit of blue push, I usually profile it with my i1Pro1 spectro.
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post #3 of 8 Old 01-08-2019, 02:37 AM
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I use HCHR in combination with a i1Display Pro (new EODIS3) and whish I could tell you but honestly, think you would need someone with a i1Display Pro using both HCFR and other software like Calman or Chromapure to verify this doing a simple white measurement and compare it.

dschlic1 I also have an old i1Pro(1) Rev D. spectro but personally I highly doubt if this device is still more accurate than a new i1Display Pro. Therefore I do not use my i1Pro to profile the i1Display Pro.

Where my i1Pro measures RGB 100/99/102 my i1Display Pro measures 98/100/100 (with the correct display type selected for the i1Display Pro). So my iPro consistently measures more blue while my i1Display Pro measures less red and this is consistent across the whole range down to 5 IRE. This deviation is present when measuring my white LED LCD monitor as well as my OLED tv. No way to tell which is more accurate unless you have a real reference...

Juice Shop, as you can see my i1Display Pro indeed measures less red than my i1Pro but which is correct (if any) is very uncertain.

It could also well be the case that thosen German forum members measure on displays with the wrong display type selected, the latter is essential for a colorimeter like the i1 Display Pro. Who knows?

Then you have the alternate whitepoint / metameric failure discussion which one denies and the other firmly stands by. This leads to different whitepoints depending on display technology, brand, specific model / year and yes even specific person...

I know, the whole calibration thing is actually mess with I guess very few reliable results depending on knowledge, experience and most importantly reliable and (double, triple, quadruple) verified measurement equipment... but as long as everybody gets nice looking calibration reports, I guess not many people care or even know...
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Last edited by dutchflea; 01-08-2019 at 10:23 AM.
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post #4 of 8 Old 01-08-2019, 08:46 AM
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i1Display PRO works fine with any calibration software. But its color accuracy (as all colorimeters, it doesn't matter the price range of colorimeter, even Klein K-10A included) is great when it will measure a display/projector which was spectral distribution close to the tables is coming from the factory.

I have posted more details here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56851204

For more additional info see there also.

For example, Klein K-10A ($6900) is coming with meter correction tables useful for popular display of post-production area, no table useful for a consumer TV. (so even if you have K-10A you still need to use a spectro to create meter correction tables for any consumer display you want to calibrate)

But if you want to improve your color measurements accuracy in the future, you can invest to your own spectro (like i1PRO2....as a future upgrade of your calibration gear) to create unique meter correction tables for your i1Display PRO for each display/projector you want to calibrate or if there easy to locate to your area, to hire a field calibrator to create a meter correction table for your display/projector.

i1Display PRO/ColorMunki Display are field upgrade-able; so X-Rite can add new EDR* tables when they will release new SDK files to calibration software developers... X-Rite hasn't released something new from 2012 that can be useful for consumer displays, so all display tech you see as selections of the meter, they are all based to 2011-2012 display tech samples, popular monitors that period to post-production/web/photo-editing market. The only display type where X-Rite used a consumer TV model was the Plasma table where they used a Panasonic Plasma. (here you can find info about which monitors used for the creation of each table)

When you have only a colorimeter, you will have to select the closest match of your display tech (but its not sure if you will have good results without a spectro).

The ideal solution is to use a spectrophotometer to create a unique meter correction table for your display/projector.

*: EDR spectral correction is X-Rite’s EDR (Emissive Display Reference) file format and all calibration software are supporting them, except ChromaPure, where the use can select the Generic default CMF table only.

When someone don't have access to a spectro, a workaround to improve his color accuracy (for DisplayCAL/HCFR/ArgyllCMS users) is to try locating a CCSS (Colorimeter Correction Spectral Sample) file, if someone has measured with his spectro and uploaded that spectral file for your display, it will work with i1Display PRO or ColorMunki Display (both meters can read spectral corrections).

But when you are using CCSS correction, you assume that the internal spectral data of X-Rite meter from the factory hasn't drifted, since the internal meter spectra + CCSS spectra data are used to create a correction matrix.

DisplayCAL/HCFR/ArgyllCMS support also CCMX file, but using other people CCMX file will not work, only if you have your own meters combo (colorimeter+spectro) you can create matrix based correction (CCMX = Colorimeter Correction Matrix) which will be only valid for your current meters/display.
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post #5 of 8 Old 01-12-2019, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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First off, thanks a lot for your answers guys, sometimes it's good to get things back into perspective, that's for sure...



Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchflea View Post
I know, the whole calibration thing is actually mess with I guess very few reliable results depending on knowledge, experience and most importantly reliable and (double, triple, quadruple) verified measurement equipment... but as long as everybody gets nice looking calibration reports, I guess not many people care or even know...
Yes, surely even with a spectro there is no way of actually "measuring" the physical effects of light w/o it hitting sensors, conversions taking place and individual sample deviation driving things further away from an absolute ideal. I assume that moving to the iD3 wil improve things greatly from where I am right now, especialy improving consistency in grayscale and overall gamma.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
DisplayCAL/HCFR/ArgyllCMS support also CCMX file, but using other people CCMX file will not work, only if you have your own meters combo (colorimeter+spectro) you can create matrix based correction (CCMX = Colorimeter Correction Matrix) which will be only valid for your current meters/display.
Is OLED amongst the technologies for which the iD3 reference table can be considered "good enough" w/o generating a specific correction?

Also, from what I gathered, spectros like you are hinting at are good reference devices for a colorimeter. However, I have no idea of the inner workings of such a device, will there be drift over time also as is the case with all colorimeters, as they are based on photodiodes behind filters that will degrade over time and therefore alter the response of these diodes over time?! For an amateur that has only a couple of displays to work with, it WOULD be a significant investment, so would be great to get your insight into this, thanks!
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post #6 of 8 Old 01-15-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juice shop View Post
Yes, surely even with a spectro there is no way of actually "measuring" the physical effects of light w/o it hitting sensors, conversions taking place and individual sample deviation driving things further away from an absolute ideal. I assume that moving to the iD3 wil improve things greatly from where I am right now, especialy improving consistency in grayscale and overall gamma.
The DTP94 you are using now, since its a very old instrument (with un-shield filters which has been drifted for sure), its not a meter you can trust, its not having such good low light capability and requires periodically dark readings, to have stable readings over the time. With i1Display PRO as an upgrade you will be fine, it has shield options and great low light capability, it will be a lot faster and more accurate to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juice shop View Post
Is OLED amongst the technologies for which the iD3 reference table can be considered "good enough" w/o generating a specific correction?

Also, from what I gathered, spectros like you are hinting at are good reference devices for a colorimeter. However, I have no idea of the inner workings of such a device, will there be drift over time also as is the case with all colorimeters, as they are based on photodiodes behind filters that will degrade over time and therefore alter the response of these diodes over time?! For an amateur that has only a couple of displays to work with, it WOULD be a significant investment, so would be great to get your insight into this, thanks!
Spectro's are great tools to create unique meter correction tables for colorimeters.

Each display has it's own unique spectral response, this is why you need to create a meter profile correction for each display separately.

Colorimeters are coming with some tables created in their factory labs.

For example using i1Display PRO OLED table with LG OLED, don't expect to see improvement to your measurements because X-Rite has created that OLED table for RGB OLED displays like Sony Trimaster EL or FSI OLED Broadcast Monitors etc. The LG OLED's are WRGB and their spectral response is different.

Colorimeter filters are trying to closely match the standard observer curves, but once the display’s spectra response has different weighting curves from those that the colorimeter has calibrated from the factory, you will have problem measuring that display.

Professional colorimeters like Klein K-10A or Colorimetry Research CR-100, specifies what display model used per each of their available correction tables, but with i1Display PRO its just saying the display tech, not the display models used, but you can see what displays used per each mode here.

When you have just the i1Display PRO with WRGB OLED, its better to use the default Generic CMF table (which called RAW XYZ in CalMAN).

Generally the spectro's are coming with a certificate of performance (not coming with a certification the i1Studio/ColorMunki Photo spectro's), and X-Rite recommend to re-calibrate periodically.

Newer i1PRO2's features a Built-in Wavelength Calibration Technology (Self-Check & Correction).

Built-in wavelength calibration technology allows for self-diagnosis of the position of the optical grating in respect to the sensor during white calibration, eliminating worry about your device’s measurement accuracy.

i1PRO2 has 128 sensors binned into 41 10nm increments. The mechanical alignment feature will make sure the 41 increments are accurately aligned with the 128 sensors.

Special Green Filer and LED Performs instrument self-check on every Calibration.



i1PRO2 has a reference spectrum of the (green) wavelength LED stored in its firmware, during the wavelength calibration the driver computes a wavelength offset in the sensor to wavelength interpolation tables to ensure that the measured spectrum of the green LED matches that of the firmware reference. Too large a shift and it will error out. Zero shift and nothing has moved in the hardware.

Instrument can automatically self-diagnose and correct for small shifts as well as identify re-calibration needs.

Damaged instruments can be identified for required repair.

Older generations (i1PRO1) don't have that feature, they just use the calibration plate to take a dark reading only.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #7 of 8 Old 01-15-2019, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The DTP94 you are using now, since its a very old instrument (with un-shield filters which has been drifted for sure), its not a meter you can trust, its not having such good low light capability and requires periodically dark readings, to have stable readings over the time.
As far as I'm aware, the DTP92 and DTP94 both use high quality glass filters, and filter drift is low. Sensitivity is OK (better than the i1display 1 & 2, maybe not as good as the i1display 3/pro, but has a uniform measure time of 2 seconds.)

Yes, dark drift may be an issue or not, depending on temperature change, but typically it's not major.

If you can calibrate against a given display using a spectro (i.e. create a .ccmx), then the DTP94 can still be a very useful instrument.

Author of ArgyllCMS and ArgyllPRO ColorMeter
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post #8 of 8 Old 01-25-2019, 08:19 AM
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I just replaced a year old i1D3 that had a LOT of hours on it, after discovering that it was calibrating D65 to D55. I bought a brand new i1D#, it saw the D55 that my pro video camera white balance reading was seeing, confirming that the new meter is accurate to D65, old meter off to D55. Now this meter was only a year old, so i assume it drifted. I've got a 4 year old Spyder4 that is so far off it might as well be used to add cartoon effects to a monitor.

My old i1D3 was NOT off, and had accurate D65 when new, but aged quicker than I expected.

Paul

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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