2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Here are the Post Manual calibration Calman scans.
Please note, I'm aware there are more in-depth scans needed which i'll take next time i'm working on the set at the store. This is to give everyone an initial look.

Update: I added the HDR scan. Please remember that I didn't calibrate HDR and need to update the code values but just wanted to give it an initial look.
Have you had a chance to see how LG's new smooth gradation feature compares to Sony's implementation?

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post #32 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 02:08 PM
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I don’t recommend using that feature for SDR unless you think 260-280 nits is too dim for your Day mode. That feature enables the “white boost” HDR panel mode for SDR. It will make the display become non-additive.
I agree. By the way, I thought that even with Peak luminance off the white subpixel couldn’t be switched completely off, so even with a 100 nits white peak luminance it still is a non-additive display, of course not as much as with 800 nits peak but still non-additive.

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post #33 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrSniper1401 View Post
Have you had a chance to see how LG's new smooth gradation feature compares to Sony's implementation?
It's very similar in it's effectiveness.
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post #34 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
In the 22pt they added two additional IRE controls at 2.5 and 7.5 which enable you to make more low IRE adjustments to get better blacks. You will need to use the CM levels editor to create a new series to calibrate in this mode.

I was always wishing for an IRE 2.5 adjustment point. But am I understanding this correctly, I have to pay for some extra software (calman) just to use it? Seriously?
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post #35 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I was always wishing for an IRE 2.5 adjustment point. But am I understanding this correctly, I have to pay for some extra software (calman) just to use it? Seriously?
He mentioned CalMAN because he uses it, as do many of the people who are active in the thread on calibrating the 2018 LGs, and who are now watching this new thread.

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post #36 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Robert Zohn got an LG C9 at the store which i calibrated and wanted to post my first impressions.

I took scans of the set OOTB then manually calibrated ISF Bright with the default settings which results in approximately 255 nits. I calibrated ISF Bright because these sets are on display in the showroom and need the Bright Picture Mode.

My preliminary opinions:
1) LG improved motion handling for 2019 and now the set provides BFI which has three settings, Low, Medium and High. I found if you set it to Low, you get only slight dimming of the picture, no flashing and really good motion. Overall a nice improvement.
2) The set we got was very good calibration wise. I feel the gray scale controls on the 2019 may be slightly finer than previous LG OLEDs BUT now you have a choice of 2pt, 10pt and 22pt gray scale adjustments. In the 22pt they added two additional IRE controls at 2.5 and 7.5 which enable you to make more low IRE adjustments to get better blacks. You will need to use the CM levels editor to create a new series to calibrate in this mode.
3) Although the CMS controls all worked, it was very hard to get the CMS lined up but it could have been an issue with this specific panel. With this particular set a new Autocal 3D LUT, or even a matrix would have corredted this. The good news is all the SDR CMS controls appear to work without causing artifacts but as always, you want to keep adjustments to a minimum.
4) There is also a new feature called Peak Luminance in the Expert controls. You can set it to Low, Medium and High. From what I now understand it boosts the peak luminance using the white sub-pixel. If you go from Off to High, the SDR picture gets brighter and it looks like there is more contrast but it also lifts the black level slightly, visible with dark content. Neil Robinson says in the CES video that the most color accurate setting is OFF for SDR. For HDR it's set to HIGH.
5) I couldn't find any controls to enable the internal TPG so i'm not sure if it's enabled yet or this is something you need CM to turn on. I believe there will be new firmware enabling the feature soon.
6) HDR looked good and the peak luminance read 861 nits, with a 10% window. This is the brightest OLED panel I've ever measured. I don't have the new CM for 2019 so I couldn't test any of the new tone mapping options. Although I didn't calibrate HDR, it looks like LG is still overdriving HDR because the colors still look a little oversaturated. I'll have to see how it looks once i'm able to autocal HDR with the new process that Neil Robinson described at CES.
7) I didn't have time to look a DV but DV content looked fine.
8) The set came with Web OS 4.5. LG moved all the menus to the left side, a little more streamlined than the old WebOS.
9) The 2019 comes with eARC and VRR and a couple of other gamming features. Robert Zohn said there is a HDMI 2.1 port or ports but I have no idea how functional they are beyond what LS has reported and if they are 48 MB ports.

After calibrating the set and looking at content, the 2019 is definetly a step up in PQ vs the 2018 when compared side by side with the same content. The picture quality was nice and sharp, near blacks were perfect, motion was good, colors were accurate to the calibrated Sony's right next to it. BUT in my opinion the picture doesn't have as much POP, (highlights) as the A9F probably because of the A9F's pixel booster in SDR. I didn't measure the color volume but i'll bet the Sony is still much higher accounting for this observation. I also needed to turn the Peak Luminance control to High to make the C9 look as close as possible to the A9F even though it's set to Off by default. HDR on the other hand looks better than ever. Really bright and vibrant but you get the feeling that the picture is a little “over done” since the colors, in my opinion, were a little oversaturated. Once I’m able to calibrate HDR, we will be able to take another look.

My preliminary impression, the 2019 LG C9 is a “significant improvement” over the 2018 LG C8 although it’s reported to be using the same panel but with the new Alpha9 processer. When I say significant, everything is relative. The 2018 LG OLED was an excellent set and the improvements for 2019 make it that much better. HDR is definetly brighter, motion is still not quite as good as the Sony, but with BFI it gets really, really close. Upscaling is improved and i didn’t notice any unusual artifacts and or noise in the picture which was sharp and crisp. I'm very interested to see the PQ after using Calman Autocal to see if the result is any better with all the new finetuning LG apparently did. There is no question that LG seems to be pushing the panel "harder" this year to get more brightness but that could be at the expense of greater possibility of burn in. The logo protector is set to High at default vs Low in the 2018 sets. Some may want to know if it “blows away” the Sony A9F? in my opinion, no, but the two sets are so close with the LG giving a brighter HDR picture and having additional gaming features, that you can’t go wrong with either set.

I believe the 55 and 65 inch C9's are available at retail this week.
Any comments on the new anti glare filter?
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post #37 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Any comments on the new anti glare filter?
It looked about the same to me but i'll take a closer look and let you know.

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post #38 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
It looked about the same to me but i'll take a closer look and let you know.


Is the C9 on display at Value Electronics?
I held off buying the A9F for the C9-more bang for your buck with LG. I really wanted the HDMI 2.1 gaming features.


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post #39 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
It looked about the same to me but i'll take a closer look and let you know.
Have you noticed any improvements made to the active hdr (dynamic tone mapping) function or does it behave the same way as last year?

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post #40 of 482 Old 03-18-2019, 08:27 PM
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Hi John thanks for you're first impressions I hope I get a review sample too in the next days. Don't you use ICtCp for your measurements? I mean at least for HDR because your scans shows that you use dE2000.

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post #41 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Is the C9 on display at Value Electronics?
I held off buying the A9F for the C9-more bang for your buck with LG. I really wanted the HDMI 2.1 gaming features.


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Yes If you can bring your game and try it out.
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post #42 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrSniper1401 View Post
Have you noticed any improvements made to the active hdr (dynamic tone mapping) function or does it behave the same way as last year?
It works the same as last year.

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Hi John thanks for you're first impressions I hope I get a review sample too in the next days. Don't you use ICtCp for your measurements? I mean at least for HDR because your scans shows that you use dE2000.
I only manually calibrated SDR, used deltaE 2000 and didn't calibrate HDR. When I use Calman Autocal to do a more detailed calibration of SDR/HDR/DV, I'll have my workflows set up for ICtCp. Tyler indicated a while back that he would be changing all the workflows in Calman to ICtCp where appropriate in the next release.

When we got the set, with everything we had to do to see what changed, calibrate and then do a preliminary evaluation, I only had so much time. I'm planning to stop by today to take another look at the new screen filter and closer look at the menus to see if I missed anything.

Overall, it looks like a really nice set but again, you have to remember it's an improvement on an already excellent set so everything is relative. As I mentioned in a previous post, the LG and the Sony OLEDs are now, in my opinion, pretty much the same with a slight edge towards the Sony due to it's pixel booster and maybe motion and upscaling but the LG has HDMI 2.1 ports, extra gaming functions, brighter HDR and a better calibration interface to Calman. So at this point some people are going to like the way Sony implements their PQ and some will prefer the way LG implements their PQ since they take different approaches to achieve what each believes it the best. Also, nothing is 100% perfect so i'm sure there will still be some complaining for both sets as more people do a more detailed review.

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Some people asked about the following:
1) The panel filter on the C9: To me, it looks about the same as the 2018 sets. If you look closely with light reflecting off it, you can still see that slight magenta tint with the panel off. Comparing it to the Sony A9F, the Sony looks slightly more black and a little less reflective. I'm not seeing any major change.

2) The C9 has a separate Smooth Gradation control that you can set to Low, Medium and High.

Below are some menu screen shots on the C9
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post #45 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Some people asked about the following:
1) The panel filter on the C9: To me, it looks about the same as the 2018 sets. If you look closely with light reflecting off it, you can still see that slight magenta tint with the panel off. Comparing it to the Sony A9F, the Sony looks slightly more black and a little less reflective. I'm not seeing any major change.

2) The C9 has a separate Smooth Gradation control that you can set to Low, Medium and High.

Below are some menu screen shots on the C9
Tks!
Any referrence on the menus for game related settings like VRR, ALLM, QMS?
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post #46 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Some people asked about the following:
1) The panel filter on the C9: To me, it looks about the same as the 2018 sets. If you look closely with light reflecting off it, you can still see that slight magenta tint with the panel off. Comparing it to the Sony A9F, the Sony looks slightly more black and a little less reflective. I'm not seeing any major change.

2) The C9 has a separate Smooth Gradation control that you can set to Low, Medium and High.

Below are some menu screen shots on the C9
Is the bezel/trim still the dark gray like the C8 or is it a lighter gray like the C9 stand? It's hard to tell in pictures which shade of gray/black the metal bezel is, while the C9 stand is clearly silver.
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post #47 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Tks!
Any referrence on the menus for game related settings like VRR, ALLM, QMS?
These are the only Game related setting I could find.
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Is the bezel/trim still the dark gray like the C8 or is it a lighter gray like the C9 stand? It's hard to tell in pictures which shade of gray/black the metal bezel is, while the C9 stand is clearly silver.
It's the same as the C8
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post #49 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 09:09 AM
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These are the only Game related setting I could find.
A pitty there isn't an Xbox One there to test those settings.
Don't have one myself, though... :/

One other question: I had spotted in a youtube video a button on the remote named "Movies" or similar - any idea what's it for?
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Hi jrref,

Thank you for your latest information.
Btw, how do we choose 3 different type of HDR tone mapping curve from TV? Will TV detect ST.2084 signal and choose automatically when HDR video is received?

Thanks in advance!
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It's the same as the C8
Thanks, good to know. Last question...

In order to use the "AI Picture" database, is there a specific preset for this, or does it automatically apply to all modes? The reason I ask is I want to have the AI picture for the image database, but not necessarily the ambient light where they said it would also adjust the gamma curve according to surroundings. I guess I'm trying to understand is this just one preset, are they individual options, etc?

Ideally you can watch ISF/Technicolor preset while still using the AI database for picture processing/upscaling, but not any lighting adjustments.
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post #52 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Robert Zohn got an LG C9 at the store which i calibrated and wanted to post my first impressions.

I took scans of the set OOTB then manually calibrated ISF Bright with the default settings which results in approximately 255 nits. I calibrated ISF Bright because these sets are on display in the showroom and need the Bright Picture Mode.

My preliminary opinions:
1) LG improved motion handling for 2019 and now the set provides BFI which has three settings, Low, Medium and High. I found if you set it to Low, you get only slight dimming of the picture, no flashing and really good motion. Overall a nice improvement.
2) The set we got was very good calibration wise. I feel the gray scale controls on the 2019 may be slightly finer than previous LG OLEDs BUT now you have a choice of 2pt, 10pt and 22pt gray scale adjustments. In the 22pt they added two additional IRE controls at 2.5 and 7.5 which enable you to make more low IRE adjustments to get better blacks. You will need to use the CM levels editor to create a new series to calibrate in this mode.
3) Although the CMS controls all worked, it was very hard to get the CMS lined up but it could have been an issue with this specific panel. With this particular set a new Autocal 3D LUT, or even a matrix would have corredted this. The good news is all the SDR CMS controls appear to work without causing artifacts but as always, you want to keep adjustments to a minimum.
4) There is also a new feature called Peak Luminance in the Expert controls. You can set it to Low, Medium and High. From what I now understand it boosts the peak luminance using the white sub-pixel. If you go from Off to High, the SDR picture gets brighter and it looks like there is more contrast but it also lifts the black level slightly, visible with dark content. Neil Robinson says in the CES video that the most color accurate setting is OFF for SDR. For HDR it's set to HIGH.
5) I couldn't find any controls to enable the internal TPG so i'm not sure if it's enabled yet or this is something you need CM to turn on. I believe there will be new firmware enabling the feature soon.
6) HDR looked good and the peak luminance read 861 nits, with a 10% window. This is the brightest OLED panel I've ever measured. I don't have the new CM for 2019 so I couldn't test any of the new tone mapping options. Although I didn't calibrate HDR, it looks like LG is still overdriving HDR because the colors still look a little oversaturated. I'll have to see how it looks once i'm able to autocal HDR with the new process that Neil Robinson described at CES.
7) I didn't have time to look a DV but DV content looked fine.
8) The set came with Web OS 4.5. LG moved all the menus to the left side, a little more streamlined than the old WebOS.
9) The 2019 comes with eARC and VRR and a couple of other gamming features. Robert Zohn said there is a HDMI 2.1 port or ports but I have no idea how functional they are beyond what LS has reported and if they are 48 MB ports.

After calibrating the set and looking at content, the 2019 is definetly a step up in PQ vs the 2018 when compared side by side with the same content. The picture quality was nice and sharp, near blacks were perfect, motion was good, colors were accurate to the calibrated Sony's right next to it. BUT in my opinion the picture doesn't have as much POP, (highlights) as the A9F probably because of the A9F's pixel booster in SDR. I didn't measure the color volume but i'll bet the Sony is still much higher accounting for this observation. I also needed to turn the Peak Luminance control to High to make the C9 look as close as possible to the A9F even though it's set to Off by default. HDR on the other hand looks better than ever. Really bright and vibrant but you get the feeling that the picture is a little “over done” since the colors, in my opinion, were a little oversaturated. Once I’m able to calibrate HDR, we will be able to take another look.

My preliminary impression, the 2019 LG C9 is a “significant improvement” over the 2018 LG C8 although it’s reported to be using the same panel but with the new Alpha9 processer. When I say significant, everything is relative. The 2018 LG OLED was an excellent set and the improvements for 2019 make it that much better. HDR is definetly brighter, motion is still not quite as good as the Sony, but with BFI it gets really, really close. Upscaling is improved and i didn’t notice any unusual artifacts and or noise in the picture which was sharp and crisp. I'm very interested to see the PQ after using Calman Autocal to see if the result is any better with all the new finetuning LG apparently did. There is no question that LG seems to be pushing the panel "harder" this year to get more brightness but that could be at the expense of greater possibility of burn in. The logo protector is set to High at default vs Low in the 2018 sets. Some may want to know if it “blows away” the Sony A9F? in my opinion, no, but the two sets are so close with the LG giving a brighter HDR picture and having additional gaming features, that you can’t go wrong with either set.

I believe the 55 and 65 inch C9's are available at retail this week.
861 Nits at 10% pretty much matches what rtings.com measured on the C8 (876 Nits sustained; 918 Nits sustained). Do you have an easy way to measure 3% or 1% windows next time you are with the set?
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post #53 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Thanks, good to know. Last question...

In order to use the "AI Picture" database, is there a specific preset for this, or does it automatically apply to all modes? The reason I ask is I want to have the AI picture for the image database, but not necessarily the ambient light where they said it would also adjust the gamma curve according to surroundings. I guess I'm trying to understand is this just one preset, are they individual options, etc?

Ideally you can watch ISF/Technicolor preset while still using the AI database for picture processing/upscaling, but not any lighting adjustments.
There is an option for each PM to turn the AI database on or off. I'm not sure exactly how it works yet. I haven't noticed any lighting changes when turning it on.

John
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post #54 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
861 Nits at 10% pretty much matches what rtings.com measured on the C8 (876 Nits sustained; 918 Nits sustained). Do you have an easy way to measure 3% or 1% windows next time you are with the set?
I'm always skeptical when I read these peak luminance values, even from rtings since your readings will change significantly unless your meter is profiled correctly for the screen you are testing. I know for the C8's that I calibrated all year, I was reading 725-800 nits depending on the panel. I also know D-Nice measured a couple in the 800 nit range. I've never seen one at 918 even at 1%.

I'll be recalibrating the C9 with Autocal as soon as I get the beta and will re-measure peak luminance at different window sizes.

In order to determine if the peak brightness is higher for the 2019 panels we are going to have to look at a lot of samples and see where they read. As Neil Robinson said, he believes the 2019's use the same 2018 LG panel but they might be driving it a little harder to get some additional brightness.

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post #55 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by realhd1080 View Post
Hi jrref,

Thank you for your latest information.
Btw, how do we choose 3 different type of HDR tone mapping curve from TV? Will TV detect ST.2084 signal and choose automatically when HDR video is received?

Thanks in advance!
I won't know the answer to this until we get the Calman Beta software that enables you to calibrate this feature.

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post #56 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I won't know the answer to this until we get the Calman Beta software that enables you to calibrate this feature.
maybe interrnal TPG also will be only available once autocal is activated by Calman? If it's not available on the user menu then at service menu?

Last edited by realhd1080; 03-19-2019 at 11:00 AM.
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post #57 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm always skeptical when I read these peak luminance values, even from rtings since your readings will change significantly unless your meter is profiled correctly for the screen you are testing. I know for the C8's that I calibrated all year, I was reading 725-800 nits depending on the panel. I also know D-Nice measured a couple in the 800 nit range. I've never seen one at 918 even at 1%.

I'll be recalibrating the C9 with Autocal as soon as I get the beta and will re-measure peak luminance at different window sizes.

In order to determine if the peak brightness is higher for the 2019 panels we are going to have to look at a lot of samples and see where they read. As Neil Robinson said, he believes the 2019's use the same 2018 LG panel but they might be driving it a little harder to get some additional brightness.
Yes, beyond the panel structure itself, the most important factor is whether the ABL limits have been further loosened or not.

Here is what LG presented about the ABL limit changes they made between 2016 and 2017. That's the last LG has had to say on the subject.

So it would be great if you could characterize peak HDR brightness at window sizes of 3% and 1%...

1% may seem smal, but it corresponds to 10% screen width x 10% screen height, which is still very large for a highlight. If you have any easy way to measure below 1%, say 0.25% (which is 5% screen width x 5% screen height), I'd be interested to understand whether the ABL limits saturate at 3% as LG presented or they now keep increasing as window size continues to get smaller...
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post #58 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 11:49 AM
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I was always wishing for an IRE 2.5 adjustment point. But am I understanding this correctly, I have to pay for some extra software (calman) just to use it? Seriously?
No.

The adjustment points are in the menus for everyone to use.

He is saying that if you have calman at the moment, until the new version is available which uses the extra points in the upgraded calman workflows, you have to add them in yourself to the workflows in your version of calman which thinks the TV only has 20pt adjustments.
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post #59 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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maybe interrnal TPG also will be only available once autocal is activated by Calman? If it's not available on the user menu then at service menu?
On the set we have I couldn't find any controls in the user or the service menus to turn it on. I'm assuming once the Calman Beta is available there will be a firmware update to enable the feature.

John
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post #60 of 482 Old 03-19-2019, 12:03 PM
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So you think the A9F still has the edge in motion? This is without motion interpolation, right? Because in that case I would expect the C9 to perform better with oled motion pro set to high. Should halve the persistence time.
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