2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
On the set we have I couldn't find any controls in the user or the service menus to turn it on. I'm assuming once the Calman Beta is available there will be a firmware update to enable the feature.


It is a feature of the A9/A7 gen2 chips. There is no user menu controls for it. It is available on the day one shipping firmware.

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post #62 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It is a feature of the A9/A7 gen2 chips. There is no user menu controls for it. It is available on the day one shipping firmware.
So how is it accessed?

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post #63 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 12:51 PM
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Since this is a general calibration thread for the 2019 LG WOLEDs, I hope you'll forgive me for requesting some basic background information for those of us contemplating HDR calibration for the first time.

I'm experienced using an i1DisplayPro and HCFR to calbrate SDR on my 65C6 WOLED using HCFR-generated patterns as as well as Bluray patterns (Ted's Lightspace disk, GCD, AVSHD709).

Up to know I've just accepted whatever HDR my 65C6 has delivered to me since the HDR calibration capability of the 2016 WOLEDs is very limited.

I'm likely to be picking up a C9 WOLED and would like to plunge into calibration of HDR for the first time.

It would be very helpful to know what is required as far as hardware, software, and patterns to calibrate HDR10 and (seperately) Dolby Vision.

And it would be most helpful if this could be presented from both extremes:

-taking advantage of the Autocal capability (which I presume means using Calman SW)
-just performing calibration of HDR greyscale/gamma/EOTF in 'manual mode' (is this possible using HCFR?)

Thanks in advance for giving an HDR calibration newbie a primer on what it will take to plunge in...
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post #64 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
There is an option for each PM to turn the AI database on or off. I'm not sure exactly how it works yet. I haven't noticed any lighting changes when turning it on.
cool, any pics of that option with info from the settings saying what it does?
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post #65 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Since this is a general calibration thread for the 2019 LG WOLEDs, I hope you'll forgive me for requesting some basic background information for those of us contemplating HDR calibration for the first time.

I'm experienced using an i1DisplayPro and HCFR to calbrate SDR on my 65C6 WOLED using HCFR-generated patterns as as well as Bluray patterns (Ted's Lightspace disk, GCD, AVSHD709).

Up to know I've just accepted whatever HDR my 65C6 has delivered to me since the HDR calibration capability of the 2016 WOLEDs is very limited.

I'm likely to be picking up a C9 WOLED and would like to plunge into calibration of HDR for the first time.

It would be very helpful to know what is required as far as hardware, software, and patterns to calibrate HDR10 and (seperately) Dolby Vision.

And it would be most helpful if this could be presented from both extremes:

-taking advantage of the Autocal capability (which I presume means using Calman SW)
-just performing calibration of HDR greyscale/gamma/EOTF in 'manual mode' (is this possible using HCFR?)

Thanks in advance for giving an HDR calibration newbie a primer on what it will take to plunge in...

For the LG you will have to purchase Calman Home for the LG. $145 This will give you the ability to manually calibrate any set but will also give you the capability to Autocalibrate your LG. The 2019 LG OLEDs have an internal test pattern generator that will generate SDR, HDR and DV test patterns so you won't need any test pattern disks or external generators. You will need to get a C6 or i1DisplayPro meter at a minimum. With the meter and the software, all you need to do is connect your laptop or computer to your home network or plug directly into the LG TV and follow the directions to connect to the TV. Once done, you select the internal TPG and then follow the SDR, HDR and DV workflows. If you read and follow the instructions, with very little skill, you can Autocaibrate your LG and get good results. Once you gain some experience you can then manually tweak the autocal results to fine tune.

If your budget permits, you can purchase a spectro like an i1Pro2 to profile your i1DisplayPro meter so it reads more accurately. There are several used ones you can purchase here in the AVS classifieds or you can purchase a C6 meter and use the provided EDR for your panel to gain meter accuracy.

At a high level that's it. Hope this helps.

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post #66 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:36 PM
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I don’t recommend using that feature for SDR unless you think 260-280 nits is too dim for your Day mode. That feature enables the “white boost” HDR panel mode for SDR. It will make the display become non-additive.
The LG WRGB panels (of any year...2019/2018 etc.) are non-additive to any mode, SDR also, you can't disable entirely the W-Subpixel, to any mode.

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post #67 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Since this is a general calibration thread for the 2019 LG WOLEDs, I hope you'll forgive me for requesting some basic background information for those of us contemplating HDR calibration for the first time.
You can find a lot of info about 2019 models there: LG OLED 2019 AutoCal FAQ v2.0

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post #68 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
For the LG you will have to purchase Calman Home for the LG. $145 This will give you the ability to manually calibrate any set but will also give you the capability to Autocalibrate your LG. The 2019 LG OLEDs have an internal test pattern generator that will generate SDR, HDR and DV test patterns so you won't need any test pattern disks or external generators. You will need to get a C6 or i1D3 meter at a minimum. With the meter and the software, all you need to do is connect your laptop or computer to your home network or plug directly into the LG TV and follow the directions to connect to the TV. Once done, you select the internal TPG and then follow the SDR, HDR and DV workflows. If you read and follow the instructions, with very little skill, you can Autocaibrate your LG and get good results. Once you gain some experience you can then manually tweak the autocal results to fine tune.

If your budget permits, you can purchase a spectro like an i1Pro2 to profile your i1D3 meter so it reads more accurately. There are several used ones you can purchase here in the AVS classifieds or you can purchase a C6 meter and use the provided EDR for your panel to gain meter accuracy.

At a high level that's it. Hope this helps.
Helps alot, thanks. Need to read up on what the i1D3 is but from your response it sounds like an i1DisplayPeo is not going to cut it for HDR calibration - is that because it saturates?

I have an i1Pro that I use to profile my i1DisplayPro - I assume that can be used to profile an i1D3, right?

$145 for Calman Hone is certainly a more acceptable price than what they charge for turir Professional version, but does that mean Calman Home is the only SW solution to calibrate HDR EOTF, even using manual controls?

p.s. I searched for 'i1D3' and this is what came up: https://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-i1Disp.../dp/B0055MBQOW

The i1DisplayPro seems to be the same as the 'EODIS3' - is rhis what you are referring to by 'i1D3'?

X-Rite has caused all sorts of confusuion with these names so I'd appreciate a link to whatever the i1D3 is that's required for HDR calibration...

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post #69 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Helps alot, thanks. Need to read up on what the i1D3 is but from your response it sounds like an i1DisplayPeo is not going to cut it for HDR calibration - is that because it saturates?

I have an i1Pro that I use to profile my i1DisplayPro - I assume that can be used to profile an i1D3, right?

$145 for Calman Hone is certainly a more acceptable price tyan what they charge for turir Professional version, but does that mean Calman Home is the only SW solution to calibrate HDR EOTF, even using manual controls?
Right i1DisplayPro. All you need is a meter that will read accurately to 1,000 nits for the OLED and yes you can use your i1Pro to profile your i1DisplayPro meter. The newer C6 meters read up to 2,000 nits but they cost more.

Calman Home is the only software to Auto Calibrate your LG right now. You can use other software packages to manually calibrate HDR but for the cost of Calman Home and the fact you don't need a TPG if you have a 2019 OLED, you can't beat the package as a whole for a home calibrator. In your case all you need to spend is the cost for Calman Home for the LG and you are good to calibrate.

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post #70 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
For the LG you will have to purchase Calman Home for the LG. $145 This will give you the ability to manually calibrate any set but will also give you the capability to Autocalibrate your LG. The 2019 LG OLEDs have an internal test pattern generator that will generate SDR, HDR and DV test patterns so you won't need any test pattern disks or external generators.
Not entirely correct, you can't perform a complete calibration only by using the internal TPG, you still need a way to verify the post calibration resluts, something the internal TPG can't do for HDR10/DV calibration.

TPG capabilities are not fully, since you can't verify an HDR10/DV calibration, you will still need an external generator (or HDR10/DV video test patterns) to verify the post calibration.

Also internal TPG will not work if you don't have BR50 and CR85, since TPG is located to the video pipeline after Contrast/Brightness Controls, if the user will change these 2 controls from their default positions to some others values...something usually happening with most of 2018 already, 95% of the times Brightness 50 is not the correct setting (values from 51 to 65 usually used), the generator will not count these changes during patch generation.

Its been explained with more detail before 6 months there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57411680
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post #71 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The LG WRGB panels (of any year...2019/2018 etc.) are non-additive to any mode, SDR also, you can't disable entirely the W-Subpixel, to any mode.
He means on the 2019 LG OLED there is now a control to increase the output of the white sub pixel in SDR mode. You can set it to Low, Medium and High and he doesn't recommend using it and leaving it set to OFF in SDR PM. Neil Robinson says it increases the peak luminance above the normal levels used by the set at the expense of color accuracy.
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post #72 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:04 PM
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He means on the 2019 LG OLED there is now a control to increase the output of the white sub pixel in SDR mode. You can set it to Low, Medium and High and he doesn't recommend using it and leaving it set to OFF in SDR PM. Neil Robinson says it increases the peak luminance above the normal levels used by the set at the expense of color accuracy.
You can't make the panel to work as an RGB additive display, you have to disable completely the W sub-pixel to be able to work as an RGB additive display. This is not possible, so its not controlling that setting if the display works as non-additive or as additive.

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post #73 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Not entirely correct, you can't perform a complete calibration only by using the internal TPG, you still need a way to verify the post calibration resluts, something the internal TPG can't do for HDR10/DV calibration.

TPG capabilities are not fully, since you can't verify an HDR10/DV calibration, you will still need an external generator (or HDR10/DV video test patterns) to verify the post calibration.

Also internal TPG will not work if you don't have BR50 and CR85, since TPG is located to the video pipeline after Contrast/Brightness Controls, if the user will change these 2 controls from their default positions to some others values...something usually happening with most of 2018 already, 95% of the times Brightness 50 is not the correct setting (values from 51 to 65 usually used), the generator will not count these changes during patch generation.

Its been explained with more detail before 6 months there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57411680
I haven't run through the new software yet but here is the link to the videos made at CES by Neil explaining why the internal test pattern generator is a solution. -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57416682

For a beginning home calibrator this should work fine and when getting more advanced they can always try and external generator.

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post #74 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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You can't make the panel to work as an RGB additive display, you have to disable completely the W sub-pixel to be able to work as an RGB additive display. This is not possible, so its not controlling that setting if the display works as non-additive or as additive.
I agree. Best to look at the Neil videos since he explains what Tyler and I were talking about.
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post #75 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:07 PM
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I haven't run through the new software yet but here is the link to the videos made at CES by Neil explaining why the internal test pattern generator is a solution. -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57416682

For a beginning home calibrator this should work fine and when getting more advanced they can always try and external generator.
For a beginner calibrator, he can't verify the HDR10 or DV calibration, so you still need a way to verify the calibration. All other details are explained to my post and to the PDF of Neil.

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post #76 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:08 PM
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Right i1DisplayPro. All you need is a meter that will read accurately to 1,000 nits for the OLED and yes you can use your i1Pro to profile your i1DisplayPro meter. The newer C6 meters read up to 2,000 nits but they cost more.

Calman Home is the only software to Auto Calibrate your LG right now. You can use other software packages to manually calibrate HDR but for the cost of Calman Home and the fact you don't need a TPG if you have a 2019 OLED, you can't beat the package as a whole for a home calibrator. In your case all you need to spend is the cost for Calman Home for the LG and you are good to calibrate.
Cool, so at least until WOLEDs move beyond 1000 Nits peak (or I get a QLED ) my existing i1DisplayPro will work for HDR calibration.

Since I won't need a new meter, $145 for the Calman Home solution sounds like the way to go. Is that still the only option for calibration of Dolby Vision? I recall that HCFR could be used to calibrate HDR10 greyscale/gamma/EOTF, but it could not calibrate Dlby Vision - is that still the case?

And finally,as far as checking HDR10 and DV calibrations, what external pattern-generator solutions exist? Are there YouTube HDR videos that all you to check the HDR10 and DV calibrations? Are there any UHD disk solutions to check HDR10 and DV calibrations (Maschoir's and/Ted's Lightspace disks)?
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You can find a lot of info about 2019 models there: LG OLED 2019 AutoCal FAQ v2.0
Ted, thanks for the link. This FAQ is pretty much a summary of the Neil Robinson videos taken at CES.

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Cool, so at least until WOLEDs move beyond 1000 Nits peak (or I get a QLED ) my existing i1DisplayPro will work for HDR calibration.

Since I won't need a new meter, $145 for the Calman Home solution sounds like the way to go. Is that still the only option for calibration of Dolby Vision? I recall that HCFR could be used to calibrate HDR10 greyscale/gamma/EOTF, but it could not calibrate Dlby Vision - is that still the case?

And finally,as far as checking HDR10 and DV calibrations, what external pattern-generator solutions exist? Are there YouTube HDR videos that all you to check the HDR10 and DV calibrations? Are there any UHD disk solutions to check HDR10 and DV calibrations (Maschoir's and/Ted's Lightspace disks)?
I'm not trying to push Calman but having done many HDR and DV calibrations on the LG, it is by far the simplest process since everything is automated including uploading and replacing the Dolby Vision Config file. Also the HDR and DV calibrations are done by recalibrating the panel in it's native mode vs using the factory configuration which can result in a higher peak luminance in HDR and DV. It's not a guarantee that you will get a higher peak luminance but from my experience you do more often than not. It just depends on how close your panel is to the general factory settings.

So yes you can calibrate with other products but for the $145, having used the CM a lot, I can't see why you would do that if you are calibrating for yourself at home.

Edit: As far as validating your calibration, I believe what Ted is talking about is verifying your calibration with an external source vs what's internal to the set. He's 100% correct and he shows Neil's explanation as to why, but again, for what you are doing, you will be fine since the process usually works as long as you read and follow all the directions in the workflows. When you get more experienced you can always pick up a used Virtual Forge Pro or some combination of test pattern disks to know for sure that the calibration is valid. I've done so many sets at the store and I very rarely have any problems.
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I haven't run through the new software yet but here is the link to the videos made at CES by Neil explaining why the internal test pattern generator is a solution. -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57416682

For a beginning home calibrator this should work fine and when getting more advanced they can always try and external generator.
Neil has explain the limitations of the iTPG inside the PDF he personally wrote:

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post #80 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm not trying to push Calman but having done many HDR and DV calibrations on the LG, it is by far the simplest process since everything is automated including uploading and replacing the Dolby Vision Config file. Also the HDR and DV calibrations are done by recalibrating the panel in it's native mode vs using the factory configuration which can result in a higher peak luminance in HDR and DV. It's not a guarantee that you will get a higher peak luminance but from my experience you do more often than not. It just depends on how close your panel is to the general factory settings.

So yes you can calibrate with other products but for the $145, having used the CM a lot, I can't see why you would do that if you are calibrating for yourself at home.
Well that alone makes the Calman solution sound like a no-brainer.

From memory, while freeware like HCFR could be used to calibrate HDR10 greyscake/gamma/EOTF, Calman was the only solution allowing Dolby Vision calibration. Is that still the case or are there other solutions today to calibrate Dolby Vision greyscale/gamma/EOTF (understanding that means foregoing the potential HDR brightness boost)?
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post #81 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Ted, thanks for the link. This FAQ is pretty much a summary of the Neil Robinson videos taken at CES.
I note in particular, this part:
Quote:
Brightness and Contrast adjustments are a legacy function that is often
misunderstood. In theory, these controls should never be used or needed with
digital signals
, and they should not normally be used when using the auto
calibration feature because the functions they provide are more accurately served
by making changes in the 1D LUT.
So basically, no matter what your panel's variance, you can set Contrast=85 and Brightness=50 (the "bypass" state), and then use the 1D LUT to more accurately adjust, as explained.

(Tedd got his post in before I did!)
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post #82 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Well that alone makes the Calman solution sound like a no-brainer.

From memory, while freeware like HCFR could be used to calibrate HDR10 greyscake/gamma/EOTF, Calman was the only solution allowing Dolby Vision calibration. Is that still the case or are there other solutions today to calibrate Dolby Vision greyscale/gamma/EOTF (understanding that means foregoing the potential HDR brightness boost)?
I'm not an expert on other software for DV calibration so i'll let Ted or others answer that question. But again, you really want to build a new DV config file. Sometimes it makes a big improvement.

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As Ted points out, if you read the LG OLED 2019 FAQ and watch the Neil video's from CES, you will get a good explanation as to what LG did to improve the 2019 sets.

John
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post #84 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
X-Rite has caused all sorts of confusuion with these names so I'd appreciate a link to whatever the i1D3 is that's required for HDR calibration...
We call i1DisplayPRO as i1D3 or D3 or EODIS3 (names that taken from it's part number).

There are 3 version of the i1Display Pro instrument :

Retail, available at physical stores/internet stores/ebay etc.

OEM Generic version of the i1Display Pro (partners of X-Rite are selling only, LightIllusion, ChromaPure, SpectraCAL)

Custom OEM branded i1Display Pro (SpectraCAL C6 of other Branded OEM's versions from HP, Toshiba, Eizo, Nec etc...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Right i1DisplayPro. All you need is a meter that will read accurately to 1,000 nits for the OLED and yes you can use your i1Pro to profile your i1DisplayPro meter. The newer C6 meters read up to 2,000 nits but they cost more.
Retail version of i1Display PRO is certified for 1000nits from X-Rite.

The OEM version of i1Display PRO or the SpectraCAL HDR2000, they are both certified from X-Rite for 2000 nits.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #85 of 326 Old 03-19-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
If your budget permits, you can purchase a spectro like an i1Pro2 to profile your i1DisplayPro meter so it reads more accurately. There are several used ones you can purchase here in the AVS classifieds or you can purchase a C6 meter and use the provided EDR for your panel to gain meter accuracy.
When you are using EDR (spectral) corrections SpectraCAL C6 features (which is a branded OEM i1Display PRO), you based to the fact the the meter is accurate from the factory, because the EDR table + factory calibration are combined to calculate the correction for the display type you have selected.

When you are buying a used meter, its like playing a lottery about the condition of the meter you will receive.

If you take 20x i1Display PRO's (it doesn't matter if its OEM/Retail or Branded OEM) and measure them, they will not measure exact the same, there always unit-to-unit variations, some data available at web found a difference of about 0.4dE2000 to 1.6dE2000 between 15 units they measured, Tom from ChromaPure has performed similar test, the error was about 3.0dE2000 max in some cases.

So when the budget is available, its always better idea to have your own spectro to profile any display you need to calibrate. (or hire a pro if its possible to find to your area with a higher grade spectro to create only a meter correction table for your meter, not to calibrate your display, so the total cost for that service will be a lot less)
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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #86 of 326 Old 03-20-2019, 07:34 AM
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What about a used C6 from eBay? Is that like playing the lottery too the same as a used iDisplayPro?
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post #87 of 326 Old 03-20-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
What about a used C6 from eBay? Is that like playing the lottery too the same as a used iDisplayPro?
Yes. Internally, they are pretty much the same meter.

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post #88 of 326 Old 03-20-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
What about a used C6 from eBay? Is that like playing the lottery too the same as a used iDisplayPro?
For all 'used' colorimeters, its unknown if they work well or if they are accurate, since its unknown how each user was storing them (humidity, temperature), how much its exposed to panel heat or to sun, to dust, to any accidental drop/shock, natural aging over the years etc.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 03-20-2019 at 07:58 AM.
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post #89 of 326 Old 03-20-2019, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
What about a used C6 from eBay? Is that like playing the lottery too the same as a used iDisplayPro?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Yes. Internally, they are pretty much the same meter.
SpectraCAL is not manufacturing any meter, with agreement with X-Rite they are ordering custom branded X-Rite i1D3 OEM Rev.B 2017 meters with custom name and custom paintwork, called SpectraCAL C6HDR2000.

Other examples of custom branded OEM versions of i1Display PRO are: HP DreamColor, NEC SpectraSensor PRO, Quato Silver Haze 3, Wacom Color Manager, Toshiba Picture Analyser 1 (TPA1) and basICColor display SQUID 3.

SpectraCAL C6/C6 HDR/C6 HDR2000 is an OEM Branded i1Display PRO meter, all i1Display PRO meters (Retail/OEM/OEM Branded) feature the exact same hardware/firmware (just if its manufactured before June 2015, they are Rev. A), just C6 has different internal meter unlocking code (to make it work with CalMAN only....but it can work with HCFR/LightSpace/DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS also).

To see how you can identify the firmware version, hardware revision, manufactured date, when you will look the sticker on the permanently attached counter weight, see there.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #90 of 326 Old 03-20-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Yes. Internally, they are pretty much the same meter.
As posted elsewhere, the C6 is exactly the same as an i1D3 OEM, just in drag.
The real difference is it just costs a lot more.

When using with Calman there are alternate EDR files available.
But, as most users will match to a Spectro that is of little benefit.
(Especially with displays that suffer metameric failure, and require Perceptual matching anyway.)

Steve

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Last edited by Light Illusion; 03-20-2019 at 08:55 AM.
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