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post #901 of 1830 Old 10-27-2019, 03:19 PM
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2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I agree.







I agree.







Very well said. I agree. We really don't need the same bugs to be posted over and over, with 50, 60, 70 links to old posts from where they were previously pointed out. I can imagine a future post with 250 links in it, because I know for a fact that this appeal will not work. It won't help any of us and I think trying to "shame" Spectracal is the wrong approach, more than that, I think it is counter-productive.


I think a lot of people in this thread are tired of seeing the same things copied and pasted over and over. It’s seriously almost turning into spam at this point.

It’s almost like a bot is replying.
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post #902 of 1830 Old 10-27-2019, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I think a lot of people in this thread are tired of seeing the same things copied and pasted over and over.
I can predict a few responses from others so I'll try to short-cut the process so that there's no need for those responses which we've read before.

Are you please able to comment on when we might see the new "Fixed LUT" option added to Calman that was mentioned in the email reply the other day? Ie not IRP with its (apparent) issues on our OLEDs either caused by panel drift, the RGBW conversion, both or other factors. But the idea of a LUT which is fixed like the 101 point Lightning LUT. I would be keen to see all 28 (I think) graduations covered (all 12 'edges' of the cube + 12 diagonals on the faces + 4 diagonals through the middle) and also some volumetric data too.

This would be a good compromise,and easy to deliver to us, between the existing Lightning LUT and the more complex IRP lut which, for whatever reason which I leave to one side, has these issues.

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post #903 of 1830 Old 10-27-2019, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I can predict a few responses from others so I'll try to short-cut the process so that there's no need for those responses which we've read before.



Are you please able to comment on when we might see the new "Fixed LUT" option added to Calman that was mentioned in the email reply the other day? Ie not IRP with its (apparent) issues on our OLEDs either caused by panel drift, the RGBW conversion, both or other factors. But the idea of a LUT which is fixed like the 101 point Lightning LUT. I would be keen to see all 28 (I think) graduations covered (all 12 'edges' of the cube + 12 diagonals on the faces + 4 diagonals through the middle) and also some volumetric data too.



This would be a good compromise,and easy to deliver to us, between the existing Lightning LUT and the more complex IRP lut which, for whatever reason which I leave to one side, has these issues.


There will be 3D LUT Improvements in CalMAN 2019 R3. I can’t say much more than that, but let’s just say that we have been hearing everyone loud and clear.
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post #904 of 1830 Old 10-27-2019, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
There will be 3D LUT Improvements in CalMAN 2019 R3. I can’t say much more than that, but let’s just say that we have been hearing everyone loud and clear.


Is there a target date for release of R3?

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post #905 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, here is the C7 Service Manual.

If you want to get your own calibration gear, the X-Rite i1Display PRO is the best choice.

There 2 models which work with all popular calibration software.

The OEM version (sold by special X-Rite partners) which is rated to measure up to 2000 nits.

The Retail version (sold by web/physical stores...amazon, ebay etc.) which is rated to measure up to 1000 nits.

This difference in peak output is not currently required for your TV, as its not having output more than ~800 nits in HDR mode, but it will provide you capability to able to measure future OLED's or other TV's which will be brighter from 1000 nits. (there a lot of LCD already with peak output over 1000 nits).

There a lot of other info described there.

You will need a way to enter to Service Menu. (see info @ LG OLED Panel Auto Brightness Limiting (ABL) text)

Then you can follow these instructions and by displaying a 80% Gray pattern to do the White Balance calibration. (if you want to use 3D LUT capability and you will skip 1D LUT profiling, then use 100% pattern. If you will use only calibration using TV control then use 80% Gray, as they do to the factory).

There free software (LightSpace ZRO or HCFR) where they have correction tables for LG OLED users of X-Rite i1Display PRO.
Thanks for your Answers.

I recently purchased another OLED TV: LG C9.
If i want to use the intergrated AutoCal Feature I need Calman Home for LG. Is the X-Rite i1Display PRO still suitable? Or do i Need the much more expensive C6 HDR2000?
Thx
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post #906 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Is there a target date for release of R3?
I'm pretty sure they won't give you any official date.
Even though it doesn't have to mean anything: v5.10.0 was released in May 2019 and v5.10.1 (R2) in October 2019. So I would not expect a new (major) version before April 2020.

Speaking of new versions:
v5.10.1-113 was released a week ago but I couldn't find any change log explaining what was changed since v5.10.1-94. Does anyone know?
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post #907 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NipNippo View Post
Or do i Need the much more expensive C6 HDR2000?
CalMAN Home for LG is compatible with the i1Display Pro, the compatible models are listed on their homepage.
In fact, the C6 HDR2000 is just a custom branded X-Rite i1 Display Pro OEM Rev. B with a certificate of accuracy and special profiles.
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post #908 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi4Vision View Post
CalMAN Home for LG is compatible with the i1Display Pro, the compatible models are listed on their homepage.
In fact, the C6 HDR2000 is just a custom branded X-Rite i1 Display Pro OEM Rev. B with a certificate of accuracy and special profiles.
Are these profiles important?
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post #909 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi4Vision View Post
I'm pretty sure they won't give you any official date.
Even though it doesn't have to mean anything: v5.10.0 was released in May 2019 and v5.10.1 (R2) in October 2019. So I would not expect a new (major) version before April 2020.

Speaking of new versions:
v5.10.1-113 was released a week ago but I couldn't find any change log explaining what was changed since v5.10.1-94. Does anyone know?
Discussed on the Calman release thread. We can't see any difference. The previous release was "release candidate 2". The .113 release is presumably just a rebuild as rc2 was good.

But I agree, proper release notes per build is what we need, not cumulative lists of "all changes since the last major version of calman" each time.

On dates - I'm taking "2019 R3" literally thanks all the same. So it has to be this year!
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post #910 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 06:30 AM
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Support told me next release is likely December.

So I took that to mean December 31st, 11:59pm and not a second sooner.
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post #911 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Discussed on the Calman release thread. We can't see any difference. The previous release was "release candidate 2". The .113 release is presumably just a rebuild as rc2 was good.

But I agree, proper release notes per build is what we need, not cumulative lists of "all changes since the last major version of calman" each time.

On dates - I'm taking "2019 R3" literally thanks all the same. So it has to be this year!


.113 adds support for the new Portrait Displays branded C6 HDR2000

CalMAN 2019 R3 is coming before the end of 2019. Beta coming soon to those on the previous beta list.

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post #912 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi4Vision View Post
I've contacted LG's customer service and described my situation (missing UTT reset / white point calibration after panel replacement) to them.
Let's see what LG is going to say to all that ...
Just to let you know what LG's answer was:
Quote:
[...]neither the IN STOP nor the White Point correction have to be made for a panel exchange.
Which is of course a load of BS since the data saved in the mainboard memory no longer matches the panel. The big pixel refresh cycles run too early and the RGB gain values are all off.
I so hate it to get past the incompetent 1st level support of companies ...

I've calibrated the RGB gain values for all 3 modes in the service menu in the meantime - and as was to be expected the values for the new panel are quite different.
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post #913 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Support told me next release is likely December.

So I took that to mean December 31st, 11:59pm and not a second sooner.
You cynic! See @WiFi-Spy 's later post. I'm glad I'm a beta tester!

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post #914 of 1830 Old 10-28-2019, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Discussed on the Calman release thread. We can't see any difference. The previous release was "release candidate 2". The .113 release is presumably just a rebuild as rc2 was good.

But I agree, proper release notes per build is what we need, not cumulative lists of "all changes since the last major version of calman" each time.
The .113 only added support for the Portrait Displays's C6-HDR2000: https://kb.portrait.com/help/portrai...ting-to-calman

Before some days it was available a stand-alone patch file which was adding support for Portrait Display's C6-HDR2000 as it was not recognized the meter with pre-113 builds. It was saying that support for Portrait Display's C6-HDR2000 will be added with future release, so its released sooner.

''When searching for the Portrait Displays branded C6, CalMAN will fail to connect to the device without showing any error message.'' (Google's cache)

When 113 build released, the patch removed from PD's site.

But the release notes are really confusing about the differences each build really brings.

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post #915 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 09:46 AM
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I understood theses panels to be 750 nits peak brightness in HDR. My panel is only measuring at 646 nits. All other aspects look great including colors and black levels. Are others getting this low readings?
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post #916 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
I understood theses panels to be 750 nits peak brightness in HDR. My panel is only measuring at 646 nits. All other aspects look great including colors and black levels. Are others getting this low readings?
Yep, depends on the panel and how it's calibrated. If it's set to D65 you can get anywhere from 650 to 750 nits 100% peak, 10% window HDR.

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Yep, depends on the panel and how it's calibrated. If it's set to D65 you can get anywhere from 650 to 750 nits 100% peak, 10% window HDR.
Panel is calibrated to D65. I am under 650 nits on a 10% window. I have noticed the picture to be a bit soft and dim. I guess I should return it.

Are the 2019 77" panels of the same quality as the 65"?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
Are the 2019 77" panels of the same quality as the 65"?
Not sure I'm doing this correctly but when I measure my 77" C9 with a 10% window, 100% peak, D65 with HDR pattern from MadTPG the first reading is around 760 nits. The longer I leave the window up (with a 0.35sec 28,28,28 stabilisation image thrown in with Lightspace) the higher the number reads each time. I get over 800 nits.

Is there anything more to measuring peak output than that? I assume the first couple readings are most accurate?
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post #919 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
Panel is calibrated to D65. I am under 650 nits on a 10% window. I have noticed the picture to be a bit soft
Check you have "Just Scan" set to "on"?

Quote:
and dim. I guess I should return it.


Do you have terrible banding? Tinting? Is it actually faulty?

All you've said is that it's within spec wrt peak brightness. Check that the "Peak Brightness" control is set to "High" when in HDR mode.

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post #920 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Check you have "Just Scan" set to "on"?





Do you have terrible banding? Tinting? Is it actually faulty?

All you've said is that it's within spec wrt peak brightness. Check that the "Peak Brightness" control is set to "High" when in HDR mode.
Unless the retailer you purchased it from takes the set back LG will say it's within spec. When you measure peak luminance, if you keep taking readings the brightness will spike but overall when you are watching content it will probably be in the range of what you read with a 10% window, HDR, D65. Also in order to get a very accurate reading, the meter you are using really needs to be profiled against a reference spectro. A while back I played with different "stock" profiles on a C6 compared to the profile I took with my Jeti and with my Klein on an OLED and you can get +- 50 nits or so difference depending on the profile. Also if the set is not calibrated properly and it's vectoring towards blue for example, you will read a higher PL as well. Conversely if its vectoring towards red the PL will be less. This is why if your set is reading anywhere near 650 nits or higher, the set is probably in spec. You will probably have to go through several to get one that's brighter and then it might not have as good of uniformity as the one you have now. The only other option is to exchange it for an E9 where you will probably have a better chance of getting a brighter panel.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Check you have "Just Scan" set to "on"?
I believe Just Scan was set to on but I will check later. Thx for the tip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Unless the retailer you purchased it from takes the set back LG will say it's within spec. When you measure peak luminance, if you keep taking readings the brightness will spike but overall when you are watching content it will probably be in the range of what you read with a 10% window, HDR, D65. Also in order to get a very accurate reading, the meter you are using really needs to be profiled against a reference spectro. A while back I played with different "stock" profiles on a C6 compared to the profile I took with my Jeti and with my Klein on an OLED and you can get +- 50 nits or so difference depending on the profile. Also if the set is not calibrated properly and it's vectoring towards blue for example, you will read a higher PL as well. Conversely if its vectoring towards red the PL will be less. This is why if your set is reading anywhere near 650 nits or higher, the set is probably in spec. You will probably have to go through several to get one that's brighter and then it might not have as good of uniformity as the one you have now. The only other option is to exchange it for an E9 where you will probably have a better chance of getting a brighter panel.

Why does the E9 have a brighter panel?

I agree that I would be at the mercy of the panel lottery. I am considering upsizing to a 77" panel or opting for the brighter GZ2000.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
I believe Just Scan was set to on but I will check later. Thx for the tip.




Why does the E9 have a brighter panel?

I agree that I would be at the mercy of the panel lottery. I am considering upsizing to a 77" panel or opting for the brighter GZ2000.
There is a controversial belief that the more expensive sets have brighter and more uniform panels. If you go for the 77" you also have a better change of getting a brighter panel.

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post #923 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Also in order to get a very accurate reading, the meter you are using really needs to be profiled against a reference spectro. A while back I played with different "stock" profiles on a C6 compared to the profile I took with my Jeti and with my Klein on an OLED and you can get +- 50 nits or so difference depending on the profile. Also if the set is not calibrated properly and it's vectoring towards blue for example, you will read a higher PL as well. Conversely if its vectoring towards red the PL will be less. This is why if your set is reading anywhere near 650 nits or higher, the set is probably in spec. You will probably have to go through several to get one that's brighter and then it might not have as good of uniformity as the one you have now. The only other option is to exchange it for an E9 where you will probably have a better chance of getting a brighter panel.
The example of 'higher blue or higher red' can provide higher (uncalibrated output by a lot) in not valid.

Its basically the opposite.

If you have more green channel error to your RGB balance, when you will try to reduce that green your peak output will be reduce a lot compared the scenario where you will have more red and or more blue.



REC.2020 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using 26.27%, Green 67.80% and Blue 5.93% luminance per each color channel.

So if you have peak output 700 nits White, your:

Red will have 183.9 nits

Green will have 474.6 nits

Blue will have 41.5 nits

So Red and especially Blue are affecting less the peak output.

So if you try to fix a +20% more Y of Blue or Red error, you will have less luminance loss compared to to the luminance loss you will have when you will try to fix a +20 Green Y error.

Also there no spec which say what is the peak output a panel can provide. You can't say to LG that you TV is below any spec, just the average of the TV is 700 nits for that reason LG use that number for the default tone mapping.

For example I know someone with FSI OLED (which is based to WRGB OLED panel) but with totally different electronics and power supply (cost 15K$), which FSI says these panels can output 1000 nits but he is getting 650 nits and obviously are all related from panel-to-panel variations.

LG haven't released any Spec about what is the peak output any 2019 model will have.
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post #924 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 01:27 PM
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The only other option is to exchange it for an E9 where you will probably have a better chance of getting a brighter panel.
The panel's peak output is 100% unit-per-unit variations lottery. LG is not using hand-picked panels for more expensive models, these are store tricks to sell more expensive sets only.
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post #925 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
I agree that I would be at the mercy of the panel lottery. I am considering upsizing to a 77" panel or opting for the brighter GZ2000.
Hi, if you are using HDR Cinema Home, check that AL Brightness is OFF, see there.

Check also to have disabled the:

Energy Saving
Logo Luminance Adjustment
Eye Comfort Mode
Dynamic Tone Mapping

Each TV manufacturer has diff. ABL algorithms, so only having highest possible picture with 10% Window pattern measurement, it will not give you enough info how the panel will respond to APL load of different scenes and how aggressive ABL it will have in real content.
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post #926 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The example of 'higher blue or higher red' can provide higher (uncalibrated output by a lot) in not valid.

Its basically the opposite.

If you have more green channel error to your RGB balance, when you will try to reduce that green your peak output will be reduce a lot compared the scenario where you will have more red and or more blue.



REC.2020 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using 26.27%, Green 67.80% and Blue 5.93% luminance per each color channel.

So if you have peak output 700 nits White, your:

Red will have 183.9 nits

Green will have 474.6 nits

Blue will have 41.5 nits

So Red and especially Blue are affecting less the peak output.

So if you try to fix a +20% more Y of Blue or Red error, you will have less luminance loss compared to to the luminance loss you will have when you will try to fix a +20 Green Y error.

Also there no spec which say what is the peak output a panel can provide. You can't say to LG that you TV is below any spec, just the average of the TV is 700 nits for that reason LG use that number for the default tone mapping.

For example I know someone with FSI OLED (which is based to WRGB OLED panel) but with totally different electronics and power supply (cost 15K$), which FSI says these panels can output 1000 nits but he is getting 650 nits and obviously are all related from panel-to-panel variations.

LG haven't released any Spec about what is the peak output any 2019 model will have.
So Ted if the white point temperature is cooler say more than 65K will you get more or less peak luminance?

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post #927 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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@Knuck
So now you have two opposing views. Ted will always disagree with whatever I say, so now you have to decide on who's information to base your decision. Ted who is always right and knows all the inner workings of all manufacturers or me who probably has seen and measured way more of these LG OLEDs than probably most calibrators. It's up to you.
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post #928 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 02:40 PM
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So Ted if the white point temperature is cooler say more than 65K will you get more or less peak luminance?
Read again what I posted.

When you try to fix RGB balance error, it will reduce your peak output, but a Blue Y error, as its only 5.93% Y of the White you measured, it will not provide to your panel as huge luminance drop as it will happen if you have a 'more green' or 'more red' error to fix.

To your example you say that a blue error will impact more your peak output and a red also. But the opposite is happening.

Green affects more... then Red... and Blue has less effect to peak output.

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post #929 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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@Knuck
So now you have two opposing views. Ted will always disagree with whatever I say, so now you have to decide on who's information to base your decision. Ted who is always right and knows all the inner workings of all manufacturers or me who has seen and measured way more of these LG OLEDs than probably anyone here on AVS. It's up to you.
John, when you will say something that it will not stand in calibration world, or when I have personal experience from many measurements I have from people around the world, including my measurements, then I will post quoting any user.

The most info available to all LG OLED threads, about methology, calibration procedure, calibrations tips, explanation of features, problem solving, are coming from Ted, as you have learn a lot of stuff from me via email when you started your calibration steps, you have to show some little respect.

The stuff you saying are not correct. If LG were providing better panels to more expensive models, even by only 1% improvement, then LG marketing team should have informed (with big letters/advertising) with any kind of LG material/promotional stuff available, to push more expensive TV sales.

According to Dolby's reference document with color grading instructions, as its been added the previewing capability of the grade on a Dolby Vision TV via HDMI Tunneling, the document recommends C models... (page 18)

If you check older version of that document (2018...page 14) it was recommending C models again...

LGE to keep manufacturing cost low, its manufacturing panels with larger deviations, so its a lottery as we know for years if you will get a good panel (which is not the peak output so important..its more important to have better near black/uniformity).
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post #930 of 1830 Old 10-29-2019, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Read again what I posted.

When you try to fix RGB balance error, it will reduce your peak output, but a Blue Y error, as its only 5.93% Y of the White you measured, it will not provide to your panel as huge luminance drop as it will happen if you have a 'more green' or 'more red' error to fix.

To your example you say that a blue error will impact more your peak output and a red also. But the opposite is happening.

Green affects more... then Red... and Blue has less effect to peak output.
Ted, thanks for the clarification, yes I agree with your explanation. I should have been more clear with mine. I was trying to explain that when someone takes a PL measurement on these OLEDs, you can get different measurements due to many factors. As you said, power supply variances is one. Another is panel variation. Some panels are brighter than others. Also depending on your equipment and if you have profiled your meter to a reference spectro, you might think your panel is calibrated to D65 but it actually may be slightly cooler or warmer and as you state depending on the RGB error, the peak luminance will be affected. That said, although there is no PL spec from LG in writing, we know based on reliable calibrator reports and also from reviewers that the PL on the LG has been measured mostly between 650-750 nits. Some panels have measured 800 nits and some slightly less than 650 nits. Neil Robinson stated in his CES video due to the fact that you might have a 700 nit or an 800 nit or whatever nit panel, for 2019 LG lets you measure the HDR PL then re-calculate the standard or generate custom tone maps based on your specific panel's PL so we know we can expect a 100 nit variance or so from set to set and how the measurements are taken. Hope this makes what I was trying to say clearer.
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