2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1176 Old 11-28-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Also, violating the warranty by going into the service menu was discussed many times in the past but I don't know of any case where it's been a problem except where someone bricked the set while in the service menu and the manufacturer wouldn't honor the warranty.
Hi John,

There no violations of warranty if you go to service menu. But if the user start playing with stuff like ADC calibration etc, it can brick the TV. Changing only RGB balance values or disabling ASBL it will not harm the TV.

All processional calibrators enter to SM to disable the ASBL (TCP:0), which is not helping only with static patterns but its affecting also how TV is working with real content, as it will dim the picture when you will watch scenes with fixed camera position where there static elements on screen (when TCP is enabled)



Doing also White Balance in SM is not going to harm the TV and be able from anyone from LG that you have entered to SM and adjusted it, unless the user will press the RESET, as explained there, it something can be seen at service (but they have no proof if the user did that or the TV shipped that way).

There a lot of process internally to the TV, after processing unit will determining the frame APL, as there no APL until about 150 nits, there some processes to the output even when there content with 80 nits or lower.

The TV internally has an image processing circuit where its analyzing the RGB data before they go to the WRGB convertor -> Panel.

So when they will be detected areas with fixed pixels, there (2 detection units basically: fixed image region detection unit and fixed image determination unit) where they will alter the WRGB values (reducing the driving of subpixels and increasing slightly the W subpixel usually) so this affect the luminance.

The algorithm count to make that change as not so be noticeable to the observer, but some people can detect this effect, so it can be visible the shifting of luminance.

When you have TCP:0, it will reduce some of these functions, but it will not eliminate completely that process effect.

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post #1142 of 1176 Old 11-28-2019, 02:07 PM
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Its been added LG Template for B9 users of DeviceControl Interface.

LightSpace users have already capability to export of 17-Point Cube LUT format for DeviceControl, for more info see here.

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post #1143 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
No, the display was not mapped in Rec709.
It was mapped 'within gamut', to avoid gamut edge clipping.

Steve

Interesting! For my edification, what does it mean for the EDR to be "mapped within gamut?"


My intuitive understanding of the matter is that you would want the EDR to map the native panel response, as color gamuts necessarily interpret and truncate the color output of the display. I gather that what's going on here is different, and that applying an EDR mapped within the Rec 709 gamut doesn't impact the colorimeter's ability to measure colors outside that gamut?


Again, not arguing. Just eager to understand and you seem to really get this stuff!
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post #1144 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 08:14 AM
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It means the patches use for the measurement were not 100%, so as to avoid gamut clipping, as stated.
(It is basically the same as the patches used when doing 'probe matching' - you should never use peak values.)

Steve

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post #1145 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
It means the patches use for the measurement were not 100%, so as to avoid gamut clipping, as stated.
(It is basically the same as the patches used when doing 'probe matching' - you should never use peak values.)

Steve

Got it, that makes sense. Basically using known 'safe' values to establish a baseline for response, in effect?


Unrelated question for you and the others here: what's the current best practice for using the custom HDR curve enabled by Calman Home/LG Autocal vs the built in dynamic HDR tone mapping feature? Does setting custom HDR roll off points disable or interfere with the dynamic tone mapping feature? Which, in most cases, will work better for most users?


My goal is to preserve highlights while producing an overall punchy and dynamic HDR image. Keep in mind that one of my sources doesn't pass MaxCLL and MaxFALL metadata at present - although it likely will be year's end.
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post #1146 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
Unrelated question for you and the others here: what's the current best practice for using the custom HDR curve enabled by Calman Home/LG Autocal vs the built in dynamic HDR tone mapping feature? Does setting custom HDR roll off points disable or interfere with the dynamic tone mapping feature? Which, in most cases, will work better for most users?

My goal is to preserve highlights while producing an overall punchy and dynamic HDR image. Keep in mind that one of my sources doesn't pass MaxCLL and MaxFALL metadata at present - although it likely will be year's end.
Hi, I have posted a complete guide about how custom Tone-Mapping works here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58608526

If you read the whole thread you will find answers to all your questions.

CalMAN has a guide also, not so detailed: https://kb.portrait.com/help/lg-2019...m-tone-mapping
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post #1147 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
If it's not allowed to share settings here, where are some guidelines for a starting point or presets OOTB? I'm coming from a Pioneer Kuro and there were not a lot of enhancement settings like modern sets come with. (LG 65-C9)
Hi Bob,

The enhancements are explained to the Calibration Notes here. You will find a lot of advanced info also.

If you have meter/software then you can see some other instructions there.

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post #1148 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Bob,

The enhancements are explained to the Calibration Notes here. You will find a lot of advanced info also.

If you have meter/software then you can see some other instructions there.
Great info, Ted!

thx

bob
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post #1149 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
Awesome, thank you! Wow that was quite a rabbit hole I went down reading up on the history of that issue. Not to stir the pot again, but is there any evidence - technical or anecdotal - that using the FSI_XM55U_23Jan19.edr instead of RAW XYZ mode produces a better calibration?

In one of the earlier posts @ConnecTEDDD refers to a better EDR for WRGB OLEDs. Is this EDR the one he's referring to? To confirm my understanding, the FSI XM55U is a WRGB OLED production monitor based on the LG panel? And the EDR for that panel will produce a better spectral reference for LG C9 displays than an non-custom EDR available to i1 Display Pro users?

Thanks all! I love this.
Hi, FSI and LightIllusion worked with X-Rite for that WRGB OLED table which is available to LightSpace only. They are used the FSI XM55U post production monitor which is based to LG 2018 panel (same as C8 for example) for the spectral samples.

The mode you saw its called by CalMAN as RAW XYZ, is the meter factory calibration mode without any EDR spectral correction added.

Basically it should not called as RAW because RAW data refers to any data object that hasn’t undergone thorough processing.

'RAW XYZ' should mean unfiltered sensor's sensitivity data directly from the meter's sensors (un-altered)....but that selection we see as 'RAW XYZ' is applying the default factory calibration that X-Rite has characterize the meter's sensor sensitivity data to its factory... to emulate a general near CMF response, so as the (native) RAW sensor data are altered by that 1nm response correction that X-Rite apply to the factory, as they compare the meter sensor response using an monochromator and load that data inside to meter's memory, then these data alters the sensor (RAW) data, so it should not called as 'RAW XYZ' anymore.

A more technical correct description of that table should be 'Near-CMF Factory Calibration', but CalMAN decided to call it as ''RAW XYZ''.

The X-Rite SDK, name this factory table as ''Generic Near-CMF''.

LightSpace call that mode as 'Generic CMF' or to select it in HCFR, you choose 'None' to Spectral Correction drop down menu.

So for a CalMAN user, if he will do the procedure by replacing the OLED RGB table with OLED WRGB table of LightSpace, it will be better idea from using the factory calibration table (RAW XYZ called in CalMAN).

For example when you select an OLED EDR file, the factory table (RAW XYZ) data combined with OLED table spectral data to create a correction matrix.
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post #1150 of 1176 Old 11-29-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
I read somewhere on this forum that the TV manufacturers basically get a "Black Box" of code from Dolby. And they implement it without even knowing everything it does.
Then you are using LG OLED with DoVi content, the signal transmission and processing is different.

The DoVi compatible player will send 2160p60 full range 8bit signal (without metadata like HDR10) to the LG, using Dolby's HDMI Tunneling method where an RGB 8bit signal will be used as wrapper where internally its containing a 12 bit YCbCr with frame-per-frame metadata (as capability is available the frame-per-frame, studios are not using that capabiltiy, they are doing scene per scene metadata).

The Dolby has equip the LG with a CMU (content mapping unit) so there the signal will be analyzing and that processing unit will do the whole job related with tone/gamut mapping. A lot of processing steps are bypassed when the TV is working in DoVi mode, and the Dolby's CMU is taking the control, so LG's tone mapping and some other extra processing units are bypassed.

OLED Light for example is not working anymore as panel gain control (you are not controlling the panel output anymore), but as a PQ-EOTF booster of mid-levels. (for day-viewing).

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post #1151 of 1176 Old 11-30-2019, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
OLED Light for example is not working anymore as panel gain control (you are not controlling the panel output anymore), but as a PQ-EOTF booster of mid-levels. (for day-viewing).
I think it would be better if the name of it, "OLED Light", changed when it was in Dolby Vision mode.

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post #1152 of 1176 Old 12-01-2019, 05:06 AM
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I know Contrast 85 should be used when calibrating SDR. Should 85 also be used when calibrating HDR/DV?


(I ask because the C9 sets Contrast to 100 by default in HDR modes.)
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post #1153 of 1176 Old 12-01-2019, 05:30 AM
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No it's correct, C=100 is the correct bypass for HDR10, HLG and Dolby Vision

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post #1154 of 1176 Old 12-01-2019, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSP View Post
I know Contrast 85 should be used when calibrating SDR. Should 85 also be used when calibrating HDR/DV?


(I ask because the C9 sets Contrast to 100 by default in HDR modes.)
I'm not sure why this question keeps coming up but you should always use the defaults for the expert PMs. The only control you want to adjust is the OLED light for SDR. If you are calibrating manually then you want to check the brightness.

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post #1155 of 1176 Old 12-01-2019, 10:19 AM
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Thanks. I'm still a bit confused. @mrtickleuk you say that C=100 is the correct bypass for HDR10/HLG/DV. @jrref you say "use the defaults for the expert PMs".


I assume "Cinema" is an "expert" PM (let me know if this is incorrect), so then both of you suggest that HDR/DV Cinema mode should use Contrast 100. That's fine.


But what about HDR/DV Game mode? I guess that's not an "Expert" mode. Same with Cinema Home. Still Contrast 100 for these?


Furthermore, Color was set to 55 in all game modes (SDR/HDR/DV). I set it down to 50 before calibrating. Was that correct?

As a side note, @jrref : You ask why the question keeps coming up. I have just spent several days reading through this entire thread. I have skipped some things because (as has been mentioned before) there's a lot of pointless bickering in this thread, so I may have missed something important. But I ask because I have not found an answer to it (even searching all pages for "Contrast" did not give me an answer).
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post #1156 of 1176 Old 12-01-2019, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSP View Post
Thanks. I'm still a bit confused. @mrtickleuk you say that C=100 is the correct bypass for HDR10/HLG/DV. @jrref you say "use the defaults for the expert PMs".


I assume "Cinema" is an "expert" PM (let me know if this is incorrect), so then both of you suggest that HDR/DV Cinema mode should use Contrast 100. That's fine.


But what about HDR/DV Game mode? I guess that's not an "Expert" mode. Same with Cinema Home. Still Contrast 100 for these?


Furthermore, Color was set to 55 in all game modes (SDR/HDR/DV). I set it down to 50 before calibrating. Was that correct?

As a side note, @jrref : You ask why the question keeps coming up. I have just spent several days reading through this entire thread. I have skipped some things because (as has been mentioned before) there's a lot of pointless bickering in this thread, so I may have missed something important. But I ask because I have not found an answer to it (even searching all pages for "Contrast" did not give me an answer).
I always set the color to 50 for game mode.

For those using CalMAN to calibrate their 2019 LG using Autocal, you always want to use the default settings except OLED light and Gamma for SDR since Autocal is depending on the defaults and LG has specifically set them to these values. For Manual calibration, I still recommend using the defaults but you can "experiment" with various controls to optimize your result.

For SDR use ISF Dark and Bright
HDR use Cinema
DV use Cinema
Game use SDR and HDR Game PM
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post #1157 of 1176 Old 12-02-2019, 06:32 AM
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Thanks for the clarifications!

Another question: When I have performed a calibration, how can I visually verify it and check for common problems, in the simplest and most consistent/reproducible way?

As an example of what I mean, the near-black grid from this comment seems to be great to check for near-black issues (for example, I can easily see that my current Expert Dark/Bright calibrations both crush the upper-left 3x3 boxes, and that the Game Mode calibration is even more out of whack by flattening the lower-right 3x3 boxes to some gray value). Unfortunately I haven't found a pattern like that for HDR/DV (let me know if there is one!).


Another example could be to use a grayscale gradient (e.g. the CalMAN "fine" gradient using the iTPG?) to check for banding issues.


Which other easy ways of visually verifying the calibration exist?
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post #1158 of 1176 Old 12-02-2019, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
So for a CalMAN user, if he will do the procedure by replacing the OLED RGB table with OLED WRGB table of LightSpace, it will be better idea from using the factory calibration table (RAW XYZ called in CalMAN).

For example when you select an OLED EDR file, the factory table (RAW XYZ) data combined with OLED table spectral data to create a correction matrix.

Awesome, thank you so much. I am about to try calibration tonight with LG Autocal/Calman Home. I have a few pre-flight questions for you and the other experts here:


  1. What thermal or operating temperature should the display be for calibration? Do I start cool or let it warm up first?
  2. Will LG Autocal/Calman Home automatically disable options like "Peak Brightness" and Dynamic HDR Tone Mapping when it performs measurements or calibration? Or should those be manually disabled prior to calibration? The guides are mute on this subject beyond telling the user to perform a full DDC reset.
Thank you!
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post #1159 of 1176 Old 12-03-2019, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by grizzledyoungman View Post
  1. What thermal or operating temperature should the display be for calibration? Do I start cool or let it warm up first?
https://kb.portrait.com/help/display-warm-up-rates
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post #1160 of 1176 Old 12-03-2019, 12:01 PM
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That looked like a great page at first, until I saw there was no OLED graph yet there was a CRT graph! (the page is last updated 2019, so I wonder what the update was!). It also uses the archaic non-ISO-compliant "foot-lamberts" measure
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post #1161 of 1176 Old 12-03-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
That looked like a great page at first, until I saw there was no OLED graph yet there was a CRT graph! (the page is last updated 2019, so I wonder what the update was!). It also uses the archaic non-ISO-compliant "foot-lamberts" measure
It´s from 2010 but updated at 4/2019.
Yes, it would be also nice to see how OLED panel act to warmup.
ConnecTEDDD wrote something about 50 minutes.
Waiting 60 minutes before calibraton is not bad idea?
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post #1162 of 1176 Old Yesterday, 12:24 AM
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Based on my reading of this thread, 1 hour warm-up seems to be the consensus.
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post #1163 of 1176 Old Yesterday, 03:08 AM
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With WOLEDs the warm-up time is not the only issue.
You really need to use a patch set that is designed to 'manage' the input power generated heat variations, as well as using inserted Stabilisation patches, and ideally Drift Compensation.

There are a number of user posts on the differences such patch sequences and inserted stabilisation/drift patches make.

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post #1164 of 1176 Old Yesterday, 07:29 AM
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Hello Everyone,

I am new on the site, I tried to search the information on all the pages of the forum but it is just an impossible mission 6

I do not know if you can help me by telling me if there are links for a tutorial for calibrating an LG C9? just to guide me to get started
If already the calibration works for the LG C9?
If you need to buy CalMan LG Home software or if there are other free tools available? (like HCFR...)

I just bought an X-rite i1 Display Pro.

I use applications such as: Netflix / Prime video / Plex (integrated with LG's WebOS) in addition to an Nvidia Shield

Thank you in advance.
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post #1165 of 1176 Old Today, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reda Abhaj View Post
Hello Everyone,

I am new on the site, I tried to search the information on all the pages of the forum but it is just an impossible mission 6
There is lots of information, but surely you can not find any step by step guide for calibration from beginner to pro.
You just have to collect all that information from these threads and internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reda Abhaj View Post
I do not know if you can help me by telling me if there are links for a tutorial for calibrating an LG C9? just to guide me to get started
If already the calibration works for the LG C9?
If you need to buy CalMan LG Home software or if there are other free tools available? (like HCFR...)

I just bought an X-rite i1 Display Pro.
If you just want calibrate like plug and play and not so interested to learn how things really work and how to do it by manually, then maby You really should by CalMAN Home for LG and use C9 internal patterns to do AutoCal.
Links for guides is on these threads but one more time:
https://kb.portrait.com/help

And what comes to technical support for CalMAN, this place is not right place for that (you may get answer, often not, maby some mumbling about Hollywood...) but instead contact direct Portrait Displays technical Support:
http://www.portrait.com/technical-support/

You noticed also that CalMAN Home for LG thread?:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58912450

If you want learn how to do it manually like with free HCFR, then you may find information from this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1393853-hcfr-open-source-projector-display-calibration-software.html


After that you can take part in isf seminars and become qualified pro calibrator :
https://imagingscience.com/certification-training/

Good luck

Last edited by Make73; Today at 02:45 AM.
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post #1166 of 1176 Old Today, 06:31 AM
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Hi,
Can I adjust brightness higher than 50 for Day mode viewing when running CalMAN SDR AutoCAL?
If the brightness 50 should be kept, what other option do I have to get correct brightness? No AutoCAL and only Manual calibration?
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post #1167 of 1176 Old Today, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi,
Can I adjust brightness higher than 50 for Day mode viewing when running CalMAN SDR AutoCAL?
If the brightness 50 should be kept, what other option do I have to get correct brightness? No AutoCAL and only Manual calibration?
Yes you can adjust it to max if you want just make sure you turn on the pattern insertion to 5/15/5 so the panel doesn't heat up and drift too much.

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F / LG 55OLEDC8
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, ISF Level III Certified
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post #1168 of 1176 Old Today, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post
And what comes to technical support for CalMAN, this place is not right place for that (you may get answer, often not, maby some mumbling about Hollywood...) but instead contact direct Portrait Displays technical Support:
http://www.portrait.com/technical-support/

You noticed also that CalMAN Home for LG thread?:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58912450
Just to put this comment in perspective, calibration threads such as this one are discussions for users that already know how to calibrate and are for asking questions concerning the calibration of a specific TV. Questions on using specific calibration software should be directed to the threads dedicated to that software and or to the support for that software for the quickest responses.

Although there are many knowledgeable users on AVS, there are very few "experts" on all day waiting to answer support questions which is why sometimes you won't get a quick answer. Hope this helps

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F / LG 55OLEDC8
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, ISF Level III Certified
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post #1169 of 1176 Old Today, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Yes you can adjust it to max if you want just make sure you turn on the pattern insertion to 5/15/5 so the panel doesn't heat up and drift too much.
Sorry. I mean the Brightness to get correct 17 bar at day mode, not OLED Light.
I posted the question since AutoCAL requires B:50 and C:85 the default values.
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