2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 737 Old 03-24-2019, 08:00 PM
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So does the latest CalMAN for the pros support all the new calibration features on the C9? There’s a lot of technical talk here so it’s a little confusing what’s supported. Granted I understand the TV isn’t released yet.
It’s probably wise for a future owner to wait a few months so calMAN fully supports all the new features on LGs new line.


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post #152 of 737 Old 03-25-2019, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So does the latest CalMAN for the pros support all the new calibration features on the C9? There’s a lot of technical talk here so it’s a little confusing what’s supported. Granted I understand the TV isn’t released yet.
It’s probably wise for a future owner to wait a few months so calMAN fully supports all the new features on LGs new line.


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No the upcoming CalMan 2019 will support the C9.

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post #153 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 06:35 AM
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So if I grab this set, it's quite the step up from the 2016 B6?

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post #154 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So if I grab this set, it's quite the step up from the 2016 B6?
Huge step up in PQ and features.
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post #155 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
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Originally Posted by africanlivedit View Post
So if I grab this set, it's quite the step up from the 2016 B6?
Huge step up in PQ and features. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Have you been back to the store to compare side by side? Really curious if you saw any cable content and how it compared side by side.
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post #156 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Have you been back to the store to compare side by side? Really curious if you saw any cable content and how it compared side by side.
Yes, so the C9's upscaling and motion and overall PQ is better than the C8 but I still feel Sony still has a slight edge in upscaling, artifact reduction and motion. As you know, cable content has to be reasonable or no picture processing will work properly. At this point we are splitting hairs since both sets are now very close to each other which is what we expected with the new chip set and improvements. HDR is brighter on the C9 but as we reported it's mainly because they are deviating from the EOTF curve to make the picture brighter.

Let's see what DNice's testing reveals.
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post #157 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Have you been back to the store to compare side by side? Really curious if you saw any cable content and how it compared side by side.
I’ll be giving my impressions of the C9 compared to the C8, A9F and a few other sets over the next few days. I have a wide variety of sources and test patterns too.
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post #158 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 10:59 AM
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I’ll be giving my impressions of the C9 compared to the C8, A9F and a few other sets over the next few days. I have a wide variety of sources and test patterns too.
If you have time to run volumetric profiles via LightSpace on each display in their different modes I'll happily plot the data in ColourSpace, so you can see full 3D Volumetric graphs of the profile data.

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post #159 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:08 AM
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If you have time to run volumetric profiles via LightSpace on each display in their different modes I'll happily plot the data in ColourSpace, so you can see full 3D Volumetric graphs of the profile data.

Steve
I already planned to LS ISF Dark Room and Technicolor video modes on the C9. The C8 was done and sent last year. I can do two LS sessions concurrently since I have double of every piece of equipment now. Can I install my LS license on an additional computer to make this work?
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post #160 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I already planned to LS ISF Dark Room and Technicolor video modes on the C9. The C8 was done and sent last year. I can do two LS sessions concurrently since I have double of every piece of equipment now. Can I install my LS license on an additional computer to make this work?
DeWayne, if you are going to run LS color volume scans on the C9, I won't do them. No need to do them twice. If you can run them on the C9 with peak luminance Off, Low, Medium and High so we can see the effect of the white sub pixel boost.

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post #161 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:27 AM
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The LightSpace license is node-locked to the first PC it is installed on.
For the test, drop me an email and we'll sort an additional 3-Day license.

Steve

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post #162 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:27 AM
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John, if you want to do the same, let me know.

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post #163 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:28 AM
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The LightSpace license is node-locked to the first PC it is installed on.
For the test, drop me an email and we'll sort an additional 3-Day license.

Steve
Will do
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post #164 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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John, if you want to do the same, let me know.

Steve
Since DeWayne is running them, no need to do it twice and I have other testing to do but thanks for the offer!

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post #165 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 12:36 PM
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Since DeWayne is running them, no need to do it twice and I have other testing to do but thanks for the offer!
What I am doing here should not be a substitute for what you want to do. Multiple data points are much more valuable than a single data point.
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post #166 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 01:28 PM
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Yes, so the C9's upscaling and motion and overall PQ is better than the C8 but I still feel Sony still has a slight edge in upscaling, artifact reduction and motion. As you know, cable content has to be reasonable or no picture processing will work properly. At this point we are splitting hairs since both sets are now very close to each other which is what we expected with the new chip set and improvements. HDR is brighter on the C9 but as we reported it's mainly because they are deviating from the EOTF curve to make the picture brighter.

Let's see what DNice's testing reveals.
Based on your time with the C9, how would you compare it to the Sony A1E? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? C9's gaming features have me looking hard at it, but I don't want a downscale on the video processing front.

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post #167 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Based on your time with the C9, how would you compare it to the Sony A1E? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? C9's gaming features have me looking hard at it, but I don't want a downscale on the video processing front.
My personal opinion is I wouldn't spend the money upgrading if I had an A1E but if you are a gamer, the C9's extra gamming features may be something to consider.

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post #168 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Have you been back to the store to compare side by side? Really curious if you saw any cable content and how it compared side by side.
Yes, so the C9's upscaling and motion and overall PQ is better than the C8 but I still feel Sony still has a slight edge in upscaling, artifact reduction and motion. As you know, cable content has to be reasonable or no picture processing will work properly. At this point we are splitting hairs since both sets are now very close to each other which is what we expected with the new chip set and improvements. HDR is brighter on the C9 but as we reported it's mainly because they are deviating from the EOTF curve to make the picture brighter.

Let's see what DNice's testing reveals.
When you say at this point we are now splitting hairs on upscaling and motion, do you mean c9 vs. Sony?
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post #169 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Have you been back to the store to compare side by side? Really curious if you saw any cable content and how it compared side by side.
Yes, so the C9's upscaling and motion and overall PQ is better than the C8 but I still feel Sony still has a slight edge in upscaling, artifact reduction and motion. As you know, cable content has to be reasonable or no picture processing will work properly. At this point we are splitting hairs since both sets are now very close to each other which is what we expected with the new chip set and improvements. HDR is brighter on the C9 but as we reported it's mainly because they are deviating from the EOTF curve to make the picture brighter.

Let's see what DNice's testing reveals.
When you say at this point we are now splitting hairs on upscaling and motion, do you mean c9 vs. Sony?
Yes

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post #170 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 06:58 PM
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Exclamation Thanks D-Nice

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I’ll be giving my impressions of the C9 compared to the C8, A9F and a few other sets over the next few days. I have a wide variety of sources and test patterns too.

Thanks so much, D-Nice. Very much appreciated.
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post #171 of 737 Old 03-27-2019, 07:08 PM
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Exclamation Okay then....

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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
When you say at this point we are now splitting hairs on upscaling and motion, do you mean c9 vs. Sony?
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Yes
Based on this, the LG OLED C9 REALLY, REALLY becomes the "better bang for the buck" choice now over the aforementioned SONY main competitor. Nevertheless, in my quest to 'best tolerate' still widely utilized broadcast material (1080i/720p) in my home, from what you have shared jrref, the Sony may well still be the King of Upconversion. For me, that is the deciding factor, given that we KNOW that both LG and SONY have the 4K down verrrrry well.
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post #172 of 737 Old 03-28-2019, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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At the end of the day, you don't need to base your purchase on 100% on what the test patterns and or calibration scans reveal or what the reviewers opinions are unless there is a serious flaw uncovered. This is all excellent information to have but what really matters is how your eye see's the PQ and how you specifically feel about the picture since we all see differently and have different needs including both video quality and financial. Best to go to a local retailer where you can see the sets you are considering side by side running the same content. Some retailers will have the sets in the most accurate PM, calibrated and will let you bring and play your own content.

Just based on experience at the store, i'm not a "sales" guy so I can just tell you what I've seen, many times a customer comes in for one set based on what they read about it and wind up leaving with another after doing a close side by side comparison.

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post #173 of 737 Old 03-28-2019, 07:16 AM
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This might sound like a silly question but does the X-Rite i1Display PRO OEM Rev.B support calman autocal function on the lg C9/C8 oleds , or do we have to use the Calman C6 colorimeter to get the auotcal function to work?
You can use any i1Display PRO (OEM / Retail / Branded OEM 'C6').

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You can use any meter supported by Calman.
Correct, but its better from users to ignore the Datacolor Spyder 5 becasue of its poor low light measurement capability and not-tight unit-per-unit variation performance (which is supported also): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56269238
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post #174 of 737 Old 03-28-2019, 04:44 PM
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Robert Zohn got an LG C9 at the store which i calibrated and wanted to post my first impressions.

I took scans of the set OOTB then manually calibrated ISF Bright with the default settings which results in approximately 255 nits. I calibrated ISF Bright because these sets are on display in the showroom and need the Bright Picture Mode.

My preliminary opinions:
1) LG improved motion handling for 2019 and now the set provides BFI which has three settings, Low, Medium and High. I found if you set it to Low, you get only slight dimming of the picture, no flashing and really good motion. Overall a nice improvement.
2) The set we got was very good calibration wise. I feel the gray scale controls on the 2019 may be slightly finer than previous LG OLEDs BUT now you have a choice of 2pt, 10pt and 22pt gray scale adjustments. In the 22pt they added two additional IRE controls at 2.5 and 7.5 which enable you to make more low IRE adjustments to get better blacks. You will need to use the CM levels editor to create a new series to calibrate in this mode.
3) Although the CMS controls all worked, it was very hard to get the CMS lined up but it could have been an issue with this specific panel. With this particular set a new Autocal 3D LUT, or even a matrix would have corredted this. The good news is all the SDR CMS controls appear to work without causing artifacts but as always, you want to keep adjustments to a minimum.
4) There is also a new feature called Peak Luminance in the Expert controls. You can set it to Low, Medium and High. From what I now understand it boosts the peak luminance using the white sub-pixel. If you go from Off to High, the SDR picture gets brighter and it looks like there is more contrast but it also lifts the black level slightly, visible with dark content. Neil Robinson says in the CES video that the most color accurate setting is OFF for SDR. For HDR it's set to HIGH.
5) I couldn't find any controls to enable the internal TPG so i'm not sure if it's enabled yet or this is something you need CM to turn on. I believe there will be new firmware enabling the feature soon.
6) HDR looked good and the peak luminance read 861 nits, with a 10% window. This is the brightest OLED panel I've ever measured. I don't have the new CM for 2019 so I couldn't test any of the new tone mapping options. Although I didn't calibrate HDR, it looks like LG is still overdriving HDR because the colors still look a little oversaturated. I'll have to see how it looks once i'm able to autocal HDR with the new process that Neil Robinson described at CES.
7) I didn't have time to look a DV but DV content looked fine.
8) The set came with Web OS 4.5. LG moved all the menus to the left side, a little more streamlined than the old WebOS.
9) The 2019 comes with eARC and VRR and a couple of other gamming features. Robert Zohn said there is a HDMI 2.1 port or ports but I have no idea how functional they are beyond what LS has reported and if they are 48 MB ports.

After calibrating the set and looking at content, the 2019 is definetly a step up in PQ vs the 2018 when compared side by side with the same content. The picture quality was nice and sharp, near blacks were perfect, motion was good, colors were accurate to the calibrated Sony's right next to it. BUT in my opinion the picture doesn't have as much POP, (highlights) as the A9F probably because of the A9F's pixel booster in SDR. I didn't measure the color volume but i'll bet the Sony is still much higher accounting for this observation. I also needed to turn the Peak Luminance control to High to make the C9 look as close as possible to the A9F even though it's set to Off by default. HDR on the other hand looks better than ever. Really bright and vibrant but you get the feeling that the picture is a little “over done” since the colors, in my opinion, were a little oversaturated. Once I’m able to calibrate HDR, we will be able to take another look.

My preliminary impression, the 2019 LG C9 is a “significant improvement” over the 2018 LG C8 although it’s reported to be using the same panel but with the new Alpha9 processer. When I say significant, everything is relative. The 2018 LG OLED was an excellent set and the improvements for 2019 make it that much better. HDR is definetly brighter, motion is still not quite as good as the Sony, but with BFI it gets really, really close. Upscaling is improved and i didn’t notice any unusual artifacts and or noise in the picture which was sharp and crisp. I'm very interested to see the PQ after using Calman Autocal to see if the result is any better with all the new finetuning LG apparently did. There is no question that LG seems to be pushing the panel "harder" this year to get more brightness but that could be at the expense of greater possibility of burn in. The logo protector is set to High at default vs Low in the 2018 sets. Some may want to know if it “blows away” the Sony A9F? in my opinion, no, but the two sets are so close with the LG giving a brighter HDR picture and having additional gaming features, that you can’t go wrong with either set.

I believe the 55 and 65 inch C9's are available at retail this week.
Hi,
I Would like your opinions. I just got $2700 in BB gift cards to replace my Samsung HU9000 due to a panel problem. I can get the C8 65" for $2500. Are the picture improvements in the C9 plus having the internally generated test patterns worth the extra $1k? My HU9000 is still very watchable. I could wait for a price drop, but I hate to wait till November and only have a couple hundred dollar price drop. I don't do any gaming on my TV. Appreciate any and all opinions.


Thanks
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post #175 of 737 Old 03-28-2019, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I Would like your opinions. I just got $2700 in BB gift cards to replace my Samsung HU9000 due to a panel problem. I can get the C8 65" for $2500. Are the picture improvements in the C9 plus having the internally generated test patterns worth the extra $1k? My HU9000 is still very watchable. I could wait for a price drop, but I hate to wait till November and only have a couple hundred dollar price drop. I don't do any gaming on my TV. Appreciate any and all opinions.


Thanks
CPTuell
Personally, I would always go with the latest technology but you read my impressions of the C9, whether you get the C8 or the C9 is really up to you.

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post #176 of 737 Old 03-28-2019, 07:39 PM
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Are you sayng this because with Peak Luminance OFF, in SDR mode the White Subpixel is deactivated and the WOLED panel is effectively operating like an RGB OLED?

My simple math says that when cranked up to peak white levels of ~900 Nits (10% window), about half the lumens are making it through the White subpixel, the other half coming through the combination of Red, Green and blue Subpixels.

So deactivating the white suboixel ought to reduce 10% peak white in HDR mode by half to ~450 Nits.

In SDR, ABL limits peak white to ~350 Nits (10% window) so the same logic would say you'd only get ~175 Nits with the white subpixels deactivated.

Full-field is a little trickier (and also probably less important): the ~150 Nits the C8 delivers full-field is presumably being limited to that level due to power consumption limitations (and heat). When deactivating the white subpixels, lumens drops to ~75 Nits but power consumption also drops by ~25%, so in theory, the RGB subpixels could be driven ~33% harder to deliver ~100 Nits at equivalent power consumption as the 450 Nits being delivered with the white subpixels.

Has anyone measured full-field sustained peak brightness with Peak Luminance OFF?

I'm curious to understand whether Peak Luminance OFF transforms a 2019 WOLED into an RGB OLED able to deliver plasma-like color accuracy at plasma-like brightness levels of 120-150 Nits...
The Peak Brightness setting is LG’s clone of Sony’s Panel Luminance setting. From what I see, it functions the exact same way. I’m a bit perplexed as to why LG is attempting to market this as something brand new to the world of OLED.
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post #177 of 737 Old 03-29-2019, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The Peak Brightness setting is LG’s clone of Sony’s Panel Luminance setting. From what I see, it functions the exact same way. I’m a bit perplexed as to why LG is attempting to market this as something brand new to the world of OLED.
If you are referring to the Peak Brightness setting on the C9, Neil Robinson calls it a White Boost setting. It should be OFF for SDR. We got an e-mail from him confirming this.

If you look at this video at 6:10, Neil describes the function of the control ->

When I tested this control on the C9 at the store, when you raise it in SDR, the brightness definetly increases but so does the black floor, noticeably and Neil says it also impacts the color saturation as well since you are increasing the amount of the white sub-pixel in the RGB mix. I'm not sure if I noticed the black floor rising with PL set to high at the same luminance level on the Sony, and will have to check.
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post #178 of 737 Old 03-29-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
If you are referring to the Peak Brightness setting on the C9, Neil Robinson calls it a White Boost setting. It should be OFF for SDR. We got an e-mail from him confirming this.

If you look at this video at 6:10, Neil describes the function of the control -> https://youtu.be/1aDPNyhPAao

When I tested this control on the C9 at the store, when you raise it in SDR, the brightness definetly increases but so does the black floor, noticeably and Neil says it also impacts the color saturation as well since you are increasing the amount of the white sub-pixel in the RGB mix. I'm not sure if I noticed the black floor rising with PL set to high at the same luminance level on the Sony, and will have to check.
I compared the setting last night to the A9F. It works just like the Sony... with less finesse.
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I compared the setting last night to the A9F. It works just like the Sony... with less finesse.
Thanks but there is still something confusing when comparing the control on the Sony to the LG.
On the Sony, for SDR, the range of the Brightness control is dependent on the setting of the Peak Luminance control. I don't remember the exact nit values but for example if you set PL to OFF, then the Brightness control will have a range of 0-100 nits, for example, if it's set to Low, 0-150 nits, etc... Again I don't remember the exact nit values for each PL setting but if you want to calibrate for a bright room, say 200 nits, you can't leave the PL control OFF. On the LG you can.

On the LG for SDR, with the Peak Brightness control set to OFF, setting the OLED Light control from 0-100 will give you 0 - 250+ nits, depending on the PM, Gamma, etc.. If you raise the PB control to Low to Medium to High, you get the white boost Neil was talking about with even higher peak luminance. I haven't measured the "boost" but you can see the increased luminance clearly.

So I agree both controls are probably both manipulating the White sub pixel to increase the peak luminance but the controls appear to work slightly differently on each set based on my observation. I'm not sure why you would want to calibrate a SDR PM so bright but maybe for sports in a bright room?

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Thanks but there is still something confusing when comparing the control on the Sony to the LG.
On the Sony, for SDR, the range of the Brightness control is dependent on the setting of the Peak Luminance control. I don't remember the exact nit values but for example if you set PL to OFF, then the Brightness control will have a range of 0-100 nits, for example, if it's set to Low, 0-150 nits, etc... Again I don't remember the exact nit values for each PL setting but if you want to calibrate for a bright room, say 200 nits, you can't leave the PL control OFF. On the LG you can.

On the LG for SDR, with the Peak Brightness control set to OFF, setting the OLED Light control from 0-100 will give you 0 - 250+ nits, depending on the PM, Gamma, etc.. If you raise the PB control to Low to Medium to High, you get the white boost Neil was talking about with even higher peak luminance. I haven't measured the "boost" but you can see the increased luminance clearly.

So I agree both controls are probably both manipulating the White sub pixel to increase the peak luminance but the controls appear to work slightly differently on each set based on my observation. I'm not sure why you would want to calibrate a SDR PM so bright but maybe for sports in a bright room?
Correct, that is why I said with less finesse We all know LG drives their pixels much harder than any of their OE Clients so it is not surprising what I’m seeing here.
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