2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 1829 Old 05-22-2020, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
To try to answer...
Thank you for the answers. I need to read them carefully and try to get my head around them. For those of us more familiar with the manual calibration steps, the whole LUT thing is a learning curve.

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post #1772 of 1829 Old 05-22-2020, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdk914 View Post
Thank you for the answers. I need to read them carefully and try to get my head around them. For those of us more familiar with the manual calibration steps, the whole LUT thing is a learning curve.
You can also use the 3D Graphs to verify manual calibration.
The exact same rules apply.

Steve

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post #1773 of 1829 Old 05-22-2020, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve,
If you profile a display at 150 nits for example on an OLED and you want to generate more than one 3DLUT based on that profile, say 150 nits (the initial target), then another at 100 nits, then another at 200 nits, totally hypothetical case. I understand due to the OLED white sub pixel the results other than the initial target will not be exact but can these other targets be generated with a "reasonable" amount of accuracy? Again i know it's not going to be perfect but just curious on what your opinion is on this question. Thanks John

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post #1774 of 1829 Old 05-22-2020, 05:56 AM
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Why would you use the LUT to try to manage the peak Luma?
And you most definitely can't use a LUT to go 'higher'...

You will potentially get a better result using the original LUT, made with the display set to 150 nits, and just altering the TVs Brightness...
But, the results will not be accurate, as you will have changed the TV settings...
And a WOLED is the worst possible display for that!

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post #1775 of 1829 Old 05-22-2020, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Can you explain more on your set up? What pattern delay are you using? Can you attach your CPFX profile file?


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Hi Tyler,

Sorry for the late reply.

Please see the attached cpfx file, Calman post calibration report and LightSpace cube view of the Calman LUT.

The setup is:

i1 Display Pro Retail meter, FSI OLED EDR and LG ITPG.

All processing options disabled within the tv's menu (except for the service menu options, I never touched those). The tv and the meter were properly warmed up before the autocal process.

Pattern delay: 0.75 as I recall.

Low light handler enabled below 1 nit, exposure 4s.

The pattern insertion frequency I used: 35/5/0.
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post #1776 of 1829 Old 05-23-2020, 02:16 PM
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Ok, after tremendous help and assistance from @ConnecTEDDD I have finally managed to complete the LightSpace calibration of my LG C9 with a cheap meter (i1d3 Retail) and a cheap pattern generator (Raspberry PI).

First of all, I would like to point out I am a newbie who just wanted to get the best out of my tv. So no in depth knowledge nor experience here. I have to admit it took some time and reading to get to the point of basic understanding how the LightSpace software works. My initial impression was that the calibration process with LightSpace would include much more knowledge of the color science and much more manual inputs than the so called auto calibration in Calman, but it turned out to be pretty simple in the end. The software is so powerful and in my case it didn't require a single manual calibration step, as the guidance I received from Ted was just spot on!

The reason I turned to LightSpace and decided to buy the license is my dissatisfaction with Calman autocal. I ran at least 30 separate autocal procedures with different picture presets, and was never really happy with the end result. Each time I used Calman's Lightning LUT as per the official recommendation, however I got better visual results when I first tried the Fixed Grid option. However, after my initial joy (and almost reference level post calibration charts - see my post above), it turned out the LUT had the yellow shark fin, as many other users have reported. The post cal picture had some banding too (can bee checked with Ted's disk files). The yellow spike anomaly could only be seen within the LightSpace cube preview, as the Calman color checker is pretty rudimentary and does not give you the full picture.

To cut the long story short, I needed to make some preparation steps in order to let LightSpace do its magic. @ConnecTEDDD was blazing fast and tireless in guiding me through the learning curve. First I bought a Raspberry PI 3 B+ (around 70 euro) which is the recommended low cost pattern generator. I flashed the SD card in order to turn the Raspberry PI into the so called PGenerator. Then I used the brilliant DeviceControl to set the output of the PGenerator to 1080/24 and RGB full. And that's about everything one needs to do in order to have a great pattern generator with flawless integration with LightSpace (also Calman).

As I don't have the LG service remote at this point in time (ordered one online, still waiting for delivery), Ted advised me to skip the service menu part for now and start with the most accurate 'out of the box' color preset/colorspace, which was ISF Dark/Warm 2 in my case. First I did a factory reset of the TV to get rid of the stored Calman LUT's in all the picture modes. Then I disabled all picture processing enhancements and was ready to proceed.

Within DeviceControl (which connects directly to the TV, the same way Calman connects to the TV) I ticked "enable calibration", selected ISF Dark and reset the 3D Lut. Then I selected gamma 2.2 (has nothing to do with the actual target gamma), and set Contrast at 85 and Brightness at 50. Then I unticked enable calibration and was ready for profiling within LightSpace.

For connection between the PGenerator and my MacBook Pro 16'' (running Windows in bootcamp) I used a LAN cable (direct ethernet connection). The PGenerator was connected to the tv's HDMI input 1.

The display characterization process took around 3 hours (fully automatic with no inputs from the user, except from setting the appropriate options for the pattern generator and the meter prior to the measurements).

When the profiling was done, I opened the "Convert Color Space" window in LightSpace, selected the target colorspace - REC.709 and then selected my profile measurements in order to get the correction file from LS. It literally takes a few seconds to get the correction file which needs to be exported afterwards and uploaded to the TV via DeviceControl.

The end result is brilliant in terms of real content, no banding or artifacts whatsoever, natural skin tones, very smooth color gradation, etc. Absolutely beautiful, and I haven't even done the full recommended procedure with the service menu white balance adjustments. Can't wait for the service remote to redo the calibration.

Many thanks to Ted again, and I highly recommend LightSpace to every home enthusiast.
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post #1777 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
Ok, after tremendous help and assistance from @ConnecTEDDD I have finally managed to complete the LightSpace calibration of my LG C9 with a cheap meter (i1d3 Retail) and a cheap pattern generator (Raspberry PI).
Thank you for posting this. It is certainly food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
I got better visual results when I first tried the Fixed Grid option. However, after my initial joy (and almost reference level post calibration charts - see my post above), it turned out the LUT had the yellow shark fin, as many other users have reported. The post cal picture had some banding too (can bee checked with Ted's disk files).
I think the fins and the spikes are different things. The fins are worse than the spikes, but seem to be less common.

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Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
First I bought a Raspberry PI 3 B+ (around 70 euro) which is the recommended low cost pattern generator.
Presumably first you purchased a license for CS/LS. After your post, which makes a compelling case that LS/CS is not as steep a learning curve as one might think, I just checked again and it's a very different investment than CM Home (but for those with higher license levels of CM, certainly seems to be more of a comparable option). I could swear it's more expensive than last time I looked! I wish there was a LS Home!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
The display characterization process took around 3 hours (fully automatic with no inputs from the user, except from setting the appropriate options for the pattern generator and the meter prior to the measurements).
Did you have to get a special patchset - it seems that there may be a need to tinker with the patchsets to address drift optimally with higher target nit level LUTs (and to try to procure the magic patchset). I wish we could customize the patch sequence in CM Home (or someone else could and I could get my hands on the result! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
... I highly recommend LightSpace to every home enthusiast.
You make a very convincing case for the home enthusiast who is willing to pay the freight for the software. It may not be a viable option for pros who need to get in and out in a reasonable time frame, but for those of us tinkering with our own sets who have fewer time constraints it seems great.

I am lucky that I have been able to generate a couple of Fixed Grid 9 LUTs for different viewing conditions with no banding that I can see (using Ted's Color Ramps pattern). They may well have one or more spikes that don't show up on the pattern or on the colorchecker scans, so I'm sure they could be better yet.

(I tried a 160 nit FG9 LUT in contact mode with pattern delay of 25/5/15% yesterday, after having a good result targeting 120 nits, and the result did not look good (dEs or on the patterns). So I tried again last night in non-contact mode with 20/20/15% and the result looks good (although there are couple of troublesome colorchecker SG patches that are still around 2.0 dEs while everything else is much lower). I don't know whether it was the more extreme pattern insertion or the non-contact mode that made the difference, or a combination. (ABSL was turned off in the In-Start menu.)

So until there is a LS/CS Home, I'm stuck with CM Home and am hoping that the new version comes out soon (I don't have the beta).
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post #1778 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 09:02 AM
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My C9 has a peak luminance in HDR using the internal pattern generator of around 650 nits at the end of an autocal. If after completing the calibration I immediately switch to the thumb drive with the Masciola HDR patterns, I get a 100% white reading of 760 nits.

Which is the correct peak luminance that the panel should be using for the tone mapping?

Why would the iTPG give me such a different result?

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post #1779 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rdk914 View Post
Thank you for posting this. It is certainly food for thought.



I think the fins and the spikes are different things. The fins are worse than the spikes, but seem to be less common.



Presumably first you purchased a license for CS/LS. After your post, which makes a compelling case that LS/CS is not as steep a learning curve as one might think, I just checked again and it's a very different investment than CM Home (but for those with higher license levels of CM, certainly seems to be more of a comparable option). I could swear it's more expensive than last time I looked! I wish there was a LS Home!



Did you have to get a special patchset - it seems that there may be a need to tinker with the patchsets to address drift optimally with higher target nit level LUTs (and to try to procure the magic patchset). I wish we could customize the patch sequence in CM Home (or someone else could and I could get my hands on the result! )



You make a very convincing case for the home enthusiast who is willing to pay the freight for the software. It may not be a viable option for pros who need to get in and out in a reasonable time frame, but for those of us tinkering with our own sets who have fewer time constraints it seems great.

I am lucky that I have been able to generate a couple of Fixed Grid 9 LUTs for different viewing conditions with no banding that I can see (using Ted's Color Ramps pattern). They may well have one or more spikes that don't show up on the pattern or on the colorchecker scans, so I'm sure they could be better yet.

(I tried a 160 nit FG9 LUT in contact mode with pattern delay of 25/5/15% yesterday, after having a good result targeting 120 nits, and the result did not look good (dEs or on the patterns). So I tried again last night in non-contact mode with 20/20/15% and the result looks good (although there are couple of troublesome colorchecker SG patches that are still around 2.0 dEs while everything else is much lower). I don't know whether it was the more extreme pattern insertion or the non-contact mode that made the difference, or a combination. (ABSL was turned off in the In-Start menu.)

So until there is a LS/CS Home, I'm stuck with CM Home and am hoping that the new version comes out soon (I don't have the beta).

Yes, I purchased the LightSpace HTL license via Ted’s website (with 10% discount) for £337.50. But unlike Calman, the LightSpace license is for life, and includes all future updates. My purchase entitles me to a free upgrade to ColourSpace once released (I suppose later this year). ColourSpace license itself will be 20% more expensive than a comparable LightSpace license.

The learning curve is not as steep when you have someone like Ted to guide you through it. I would never have done it without him as I don’t have the in depth knowledge of the matter.

Yes, I got a special patchset from Ted.

Currently doing another run of calibration as I found my Logitech Harmony and was able to enter the service menu and do the recommended pre calibration steps. Will post my results later.


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post #1780 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
Yes, I got a special patchset from Ted.

Currently doing another run of calibration as I found my Logitech Harmony and was able to enter the service menu and do the recommended pre calibration steps. Will post my results later.
That's cool. A request from the audience if I may! I believe for the 3DLUT viewer there are options to
a) use smaller dot sizes, and
b) also show more points without the dots overlapping each other and making a mess on the screen.

If you could find those options please, I'm sure your LUTs would reveal much better detail. The defaults you're currently using make them look pretty horrible. TIA
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post #1781 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
Yes, I purchased the LightSpace HTL license via Ted’s website (with 10% discount) for £337.50. But unlike Calman, the LightSpace license is for life, and includes all future updates. My purchase entitles me to a free upgrade to ColourSpace once released (I suppose later this year). ColourSpace license itself will be 20% more expensive than a comparable LightSpace license.

The learning curve is not as steep when you have someone like Ted to guide you through it. I would never have done it without him as I don’t have the in depth knowledge of the matter.

Yes, I got a special patchset from Ted.

Currently doing another run of calibration as I found my Logitech Harmony and was able to enter the service menu and do the recommended pre calibration steps. Will post my results later.


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I know @ConnecTEDDD has been advising you so this isn't directed towards you, but rather others that may ask you similar questions.

While it is recommended to pre calibrate the SM WB (and I do this myself) it is not a requirement as you can literally set all the SM values to 192.192.192 to have the panel in its native gamut and the 3D LUT will still produce the exact same excellent results. You could also fully Reset the 1D LUT if you wished, perform a 1D LUT calibration followed by a 3D LUT, or leave the 1D LUT as a Unity LUT and perform the 3D LUT from there, it all produces the exact same end results. The major benefits of pre calibrating the SM WB first is because it allows you to initially set your OLED light to you desired final peak output accurately before profiling (without having to calculate the luminance drop during the LUT creation) and that it can also be applied to other picture modes including HDR/DV to give those modes a good solid foundation to calibrate from too. Especially HDR and DV which IMO benefit most from some manual adjustment to the White Balance and/or Greyscale (with DV Config upload only, no Matrix LUT for HDR)

"Special patchsets" help for the SDR profiling but are also not a required necessity. The built in patchsets work perfectly well, but the so called "special patchsets" have just been sorted in such a way as to optimally manage drift better on WOLED panels during profiling. Just as important are the Stabilisation patch values and probe settings as this can also speed up the profiling significantly. For example, with the i1d3 set up optimally and all other settings configured correctly, it is not an exaggeration to say that it is almost as fast as a Klein K10-A through the majority of the profiling stage!!!!

Regardless, some of these patchsets are shared among the LS/CS community freely and others can be manually made yourself very, very easily. In fact I have just recently created some patchsets and instructions that I will be sharing in the coming days to assist other 2019 LG OLED owners who might not be that experienced with the software but want to attempt to manually calibrate Dolby Vision and HDR using LightSpace/ColourSpace with easily attainable fantastic results! (no raised blacks or black clipping whatsoever)


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
That's cool. A request from the audience if I may! I believe for the 3DLUT viewer there are options to
a) use smaller dot sizes, and
b) also show more points without the dots overlapping each other and making a mess on the screen.

If you could find those options please, I'm sure your LUTs would reveal much better detail. The defaults you're currently using make them look pretty horrible. TIA
Right click the cube image in the Cube Viewer. "Sphere Radius -> Decrease" - "Grid Size -> 33x33x33"
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post #1782 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I know @ConnecTEDDD has been advising you so this isn't directed towards you, but rather others that may ask you similar questions.

While it is recommended to pre calibrate the SM WB (and I do this myself) it is not a requirement as you can literally set all the SM values to 192.192.192 to have the panel in its native gamut and the 3D LUT will still produce the exact same excellent results. You could also fully Reset the 1D LUT if you wished, perform a 1D LUT calibration followed by a 3D LUT, or leave the 1D LUT as a Unity LUT and perform the 3D LUT from there, it all produces the exact same end results. The major benefits of pre calibrating the SM WB first is because it allows you to initially set your OLED light to you desired final peak output accurately before profiling (without having to calculate the luminance drop during the LUT creation) and that it can also be applied to other picture modes including HDR/DV to give those modes a good solid foundation to calibrate from too. Especially HDR and DV which IMO benefit most from some manual adjustment to the White Balance and/or Greyscale (with DV Config upload only, no Matrix LUT for HDR)

"Special patchsets" help for the SDR profiling but are also not a required necessity. The built in patchsets work perfectly well, but the so called "special patchsets" have just been sorted in such a way as to optimally manage drift better on WOLED panels during profiling. Just as important are the Stabilisation patch values and probe settings as this can also speed up the profiling significantly. For example, with the i1d3 set up optimally and all other settings configured correctly, it is not an exaggeration to say that it is almost as fast as a Klein K10-A through the majority of the profiling stage!!!!

Regardless, some of these patchsets are shared among the LS/CS community freely and others can be manually made yourself very, very easily. In fact I have just recently created some patchsets and instructions that I will be sharing in the coming days to assist other 2019 LG OLED owners who might not be that experienced with the software but want to attempt to manually calibrate Dolby Vision and HDR using LightSpace/ColourSpace with easily attainable fantastic results! (no raised blacks or black clipping whatsoever)




Right click the cube image in the Cube Viewer. "Sphere Radius -> Decrease" - "Grid Size -> 33x33x33"

Thank you for your comments.

I think I messed the OLED light during the SM WB precalibration, I set it too low at 27. I should have started with at least 29. Now the luminance output after calibration is around 88 nits.

Regardless, the end result with real content is just brilliant. Whites are really white (no AWP but regular D65 target), skin tones are almost perfect. No banding, artifacts, etc. But I will have to redo it in the next couple of days with the right OLED light setting and obtain an even better result.

Regarding HDR calibration, I obviously can’t do it with just the PGenerator and without getting something like HDfury linker. What about DV, is there a cheap pattern generator option there?


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post #1783 of 1829 Old 05-24-2020, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post

Regarding HDR calibration, I obviously can’t do it with just the PGenerator and without getting something like HDfury linker. What about DV, is there a cheap pattern generator option there?


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I will explain more in the coming days either in the main LightSpace or ColourSpace thread. But in answer to your question, yes there is a very easy way to do both. Full details and instructions will be provided soon

You may find benefit in reading through some of the LightSpace LG OLED thread as it contains many tips and tricks to get things right very quickly

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post #1784 of 1829 Old 05-26-2020, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
Yes, I purchased the LightSpace HTL license via Ted’s website (with 10% discount) for £337.50. But unlike Calman, the LightSpace license is for life, and includes all future updates. My purchase entitles me to a free upgrade to ColourSpace once released (I suppose later this year). ColourSpace license itself will be 20% more expensive than a comparable LightSpace license.

The learning curve is not as steep when you have someone like Ted to guide you through it. I would never have done it without him as I don’t have the in depth knowledge of the matter.

Yes, I got a special patchset from Ted.

Currently doing another run of calibration as I found my Logitech Harmony and was able to enter the service menu and do the recommended pre calibration steps. Will post my results later.


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Is the LightSpace HTL a manual calibrating software only?

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post #1785 of 1829 Old 05-26-2020, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToD View Post
Yes, I purchased the LightSpace HTL license via Ted’s website (with 10% discount) for £337.50. But unlike Calman, the LightSpace license is for life, and includes all future updates. My purchase entitles me to a free upgrade to ColourSpace once released (I suppose later this year). ColourSpace license itself will be 20% more expensive than a comparable LightSpace license.
Do you not have a ColourSpace Beta Program license?
You should.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/colourspace.html
Click the 'Beta Program' tab.

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post #1786 of 1829 Old 05-26-2020, 05:37 AM
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Is the LightSpace HTL a manual calibrating software only?
No, it is a fully automated 3D LUT calibration program.
But also has full Manual Calibration capability too.
(You actually get a license for ColourSpace as well as LightSpace - although that two for one offer will be ending in the near future.)

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post #1787 of 1829 Old 05-26-2020, 09:34 PM
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So I noticed some weird behavior I have never noticed before until tonight.

Rewatching Uncut Gems in DV tonight with tunnel scene at 1:30, I noticed some crushed blacks or black flashing? Don't know how to describe it. It appears as the men are walking down to the end of the tunnel on the right and left with the internal app.

When I review this on the Shield TV Pro also in DV, there is none of this. It's a smooth transition to a really dark gray, never a black, crushed vignetting look.

I checked this several times no matter the bitrate. Made sure all settings are exactly the same and same SM with config file picture mode of DV Cinema for the internal app and Shield.

Which one is right and why would they be different?

May be hard to see, but first two are internal and last two are Shield.

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post #1788 of 1829 Old 05-27-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
A LUT is effectively the 'inverse' of any error the displays shows compared to the target colour space.
So it show the 'corrections' to be applied.
And yes, any 'distortion' in the LUT can be valid, as it shows an 'inverse' error in the display.
This is very helpful to understanding what we are looking at when someone posts a cube view. If I understand correctly, we need to know what the cube represents. A "profile" cube is the measurement of the display pre-calibration, and should have inaccuracies/distortions unless the display is perfect OOTB (but smoothly graded distorted areas, rather than abrupt shifts in very specific areas), the resulting "LUT" cube would also have inaccuracies/distortions, but to an inverse degree to correct the original distortions, and a "verification" profile cube should be a perfect cube (if mapped to the target gamut) or a perfect wedge (if mapped to the larger, native gamut of the display) (provided the LUT generated correctly).

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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Issues such as panel/probe drift can easily be compensated for via 'Stabilisation' frames, and 'Drift' measurements, to a level where drift is of no real consequence. It certainly would not cause 'kinks', 'spikes', 'fins', or other obvious distortions in the LUT. Regardless, there really is no reason for the 'profile' to be poor.
From what I have read and from my experience, it is not at all "easy" to compensate for OLED panel drift (even though LS may now be able to achieve it if the correct steps are taken and the right patch set used). (In fact, from what I have read it seems likely that the "IR" LUT issues with CM result from using a stabilization approach that was designed for other display types and does not fit well with the OLEDs.)

Would it not be the case that if, say, a row of yellow patches in the corner of the profile was measured right after the display had been allowed to cool significantly (say by reading dark patches), the luminance of those colors might be read as much lower than it should be, with a corresponding "spike" in the LUT to correct those points? If the software is trying to compensate for drift by randomizing groups of patches, but not doing it very effectively, that would seem to be more likely to cause an issue like a spike or a sudden changes in the cube than an error in the software's math(s). Would not the profile be measuring the points in the corners of the gamut, and so those would not be generated by math(s) anyway and so would seem more likely to come from a mis-measurement?

Has anyone done a comparison of a decent looking profile that has resulted in a spiky Calman LUT? Do we have a sense of what sort of dEs would be caused by the yellow spike in the Fixed Grid LUTs?

I'm just trying to understand how the issues in the CM LUTs arise, to better understand how to take steps to prevent them (other than using different software!).

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post #1789 of 1829 Old 05-27-2020, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMINENT1 View Post
So I noticed some weird behavior I have never noticed before until tonight.

Rewatching Uncut Gems in DV tonight with tunnel scene at 1:30, I noticed some crushed blacks or black flashing? Don't know how to describe it. It appears as the men are walking down to the end of the tunnel on the right and left with the internal app.

When I review this on the Shield TV Pro also in DV, there is none of this. It's a smooth transition to a really dark gray, never a black, crushed vignetting look.

I checked this several times no matter the bitrate. Made sure all settings are exactly the same and same SM with config file picture mode of DV Cinema for the internal app and Shield.

Which one is right and why would they be different?

May be hard to see, but first two are internal and last two are Shield.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



Shield uses Dolby Vision low latency mode IIRC correctly. Vs Full DV TV processed via the App.


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post #1790 of 1829 Old 05-27-2020, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdk914 View Post
This is very helpful to understanding what we are looking at when someone posts a cube view. If I understand correctly, we need to know what the cube represents. A "profile" cube is the measurement of the display pre-calibration, and should have inaccuracies/distortions unless the display is perfect OOTB (but smoothly graded distorted areas, rather than abrupt shifts in very specific areas), the resulting "LUT" cube would also have inaccuracies/distortions, but to an inverse degree to correct the original distortions, and a "verification" profile cube should be a perfect cube (if mapped to the target gamut) or a perfect wedge (if mapped to the larger, native gamut of the display) (provided the LUT generated correctly).



From what I have read and from my experience, it is not at all "easy" to compensate for OLED panel drift (even though LS may now be able to achieve it if the correct steps are taken and the right patch set used). (In fact, from what I have read it seems likely that the "IR" LUT issues with CM result from using a stabilization approach that was designed for other display types and does not fit well with the OLEDs.)

Would it not be the case that if, say, a row of yellow patches in the corner of the profile was measured right after the display had been allowed to cool significantly (say by reading dark patches), the luminance of those colors might be read as much lower than it should be, with a corresponding "spike" in the LUT to correct those points? If the software is trying to compensate for drift by randomizing groups of patches, but not doing it very effectively, that would seem to be more likely to cause an issue like a spike or a sudden changes in the cube than an error in the software's math(s). Would not the profile be measuring the points in the corners of the gamut, and so those would not be generated by math(s) anyway and so would seem more likely to come from a mis-measurement?

Has anyone done a comparison of a decent looking profile that has resulted in a spiky Calman LUT? Do we have a sense of what sort of dEs would be caused by the yellow spike in the Fixed Grid LUTs?

I'm just trying to understand how the issues in the CM LUTs arise, to better understand how to take steps to prevent them (other than using different software!).
We have found that they went away for most users when they did a longer pattern delay. I would suggest .75 sec pattern delay minimum.


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post #1791 of 1829 Old 05-27-2020, 07:23 PM
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So just to be clear the Shield has accurate DV processing but the internal app doesn't? Also Xbox uses Dolby Vision low latency mode so would that be better than the internal Netflix app? It sure it confusing what's the most accurate way to view Dolby Vision on the C9.

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post #1792 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 12:18 AM
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Shield uses Dolby Vision low latency mode IIRC correctly. Vs Full DV TV processed via the App
Makes me wonder why such a difference would change the black clipping
It's not something I've looked into yet, but having different modes changing clipping levels makes no logical sense...

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post #1793 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdk914 View Post
This is very helpful to understanding what we are looking at when someone posts a cube view. If I understand correctly, we need to know what the cube represents. A "profile" cube is the measurement of the display pre-calibration, and should have inaccuracies/distortions unless the display is perfect OOTB (but smoothly graded distorted areas, rather than abrupt shifts in very specific areas), the resulting "LUT" cube would also have inaccuracies/distortions, but to an inverse degree to correct the original distortions, and a "verification" profile cube should be a perfect cube (if mapped to the target gamut) or a perfect wedge (if mapped to the larger, native gamut of the display) (provided the LUT generated correctly).
Yep, that is basically correct.
You will obviously need ColourSpace to be able to see a volumetric cube display of the original profile.
And any 'sharp' distortions (kinks/fins/spikes) would usually means issues with the profiling, as in uncalibrated mode no 'normal' display would show such issues.

Quote:
From what I have read and from my experience, it is not at all "easy" to compensate for OLED panel drift (even though LS may now be able to achieve it if the correct steps are taken and the right patch set used). (In fact, from what I have read it seems likely that the "IR" LUT issues with CM result from using a stabilization approach that was designed for other display types and does not fit well with the OLEDs.)
We have no such issues with LightSpace/ColourSpace, as we have both Stabilisation/Drift capabilities, as well as an Anisometric patch set, and can setup pre-roll sequences, etc.
Our users have also developed alternate patch sets that squeeze out even better stability results, but the improvements are small, as the standard result are already very good (but any improvement is welcome, and the ability to do that is a key approach of LightSpace/ColourSpace).

Quote:
Would it not be the case that if, say, a row of yellow patches in the corner of the profile was measured right after the display had been allowed to cool significantly (say by reading dark patches), the luminance of those colors might be read as much lower than it should be, with a corresponding "spike" in the LUT to correct those points? If the software is trying to compensate for drift by randomizing groups of patches, but not doing it very effectively, that would seem to be more likely to cause an issue like a spike or a sudden changes in the cube than an error in the software's math(s). Would not the profile be measuring the points in the corners of the gamut, and so those would not be generated by math(s) anyway and so would seem more likely to come from a mis-measurement?
That would suggest a bad calibration/profiling system, and is not something you would find with LightSpace/ColourSpace - I can't comment on other calibration systems.

But!

I would still not expect the profile to show significant spikes/fins/kinks, as is seen in many LUTs generated with alternate calibration systems, as such a 'sharp' variation in the display measurement is still not likely.

Quote:
Has anyone done a comparison of a decent looking profile that has resulted in a spiky Calman LUT? Do we have a sense of what sort of dEs would be caused by the yellow spike in the Fixed Grid LUTs?
It is very unlikely that a high dE value in the original profile would actually represent the issue, as that is a weighted value.

However, the fact some calibration system use dE as a way to try to generate the calibration LUT could indeed be part of the issue? dE is not at all a suitable metric for LUT generation: it is just for accuracy assessment, and should not be used for a 'calibration accuracy level target'.

Mmmm - you may have hit an interesting point there...

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post #1794 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
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Makes me wonder why such a difference would change the black clipping
It's not something I've looked into yet, but having different modes changing clipping levels makes no logical sense...

Steve
I've been finding that near black performance with Dolby Vision is all over the place on my LG C9, without any pattern that I've been able to make any logical sense of. In the most egregious case, it appears that the PQ curve is being followed down to a point, then suddenly dives off into black. On a calibrated picture mode, the Spears and Munsil Dynamic Range Low pattern seems to be best played through the USB drive on the TV, while Ryan Masciola's Black Clipping pattern on a USB drive seems best played though an Oppo UDP-203 HDMI to the C9.
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So just to be clear the Shield has accurate DV processing but the internal app doesn't? Also Xbox uses Dolby Vision low latency mode so would that be better than the internal Netflix app? It sure it confusing what's the most accurate way to view Dolby Vision on the C9.
That's not what Tyler said. If it's true that the nVidia SHIELD TV Pro uses Dolby Vision low latency mode, it simply means that some of the processing required for Dolby Vision is done at the player level, rather than on the TV. This explains the differences in the display.

Which of the two variants is "more correct" in this case is difficult to judge without examining the source material more closely.

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That's not what Tyler said. If it's true that the nVidia SHIELD TV Pro uses Dolby Vision low latency mode, it simply means that some of the processing required for Dolby Vision is done at the player level, rather than on the TV. This explains the differences in the display.

Which of the two variants is "more correct" in this case is difficult to judge without examining the source material more closely.
As Dolby control all the Dolby Vision image processing there is no logical reason for any variation... they should be 'Dolby Vision identical', regardless where it is performed.

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post #1797 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 02:07 AM
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As Dolby control all the Dolby Vision image processing there is no logical reason for any variation... they should be 'Dolby Vision identical', regardless where it is performed.
Should be and are, seem to be two totally different things in this case. So far I'm finding 'Dolby Vision identical' near black performance to be the exception rather than the rule, as far as test patterns are concerned. The only identical performance I've gotten so far is between calibrated and uncalibrated picture modes using the Spears and Munsil pattern (identically good through the C9 directly and identically bad through the UDP-203). Performance between calibrated and uncalibrated is not identical using Ryan Masciola's patterns. In a calibrated picture mode, his is bad directly though the C9 and good through the UDP-203 (backwards of Spears & Munsil). By calibrated, I mean using a custom DV config file.

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post #1798 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 02:25 AM
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It's because your calibrated modes are using the Custom 1D LUT and that is "part" of the reason you are having issues. Only part of it though. If you remove all traces of Dolby Vision Custom 1D LUT (which unfortunately means full factory reset), manually calibrate the 22 point white balance and load a DV Config file, none of these issues are present.

If you use the CalMAN Dolby Vision Custom manual DV calibration workflow and adjust the points manually from the user menu (20 points only in that workflow though) it will improve things a little even if you use the iTPG to generate your patterns. If you use an external DV TPG then it will improve even further, even if that external TPG is your laptop in combination with a HD Fury.

If you use Device Control and ColourSpace/LightSpace to control the iTPG then it improves things significantly.

Remember too that R.Masciola's patterns are FULL RANGE so playing those through an external device will mean the external device could be doing something to them too. Until the S&M UHD Benchmark update disk is available, there are no (at least for consumers AFAIK) true verified external DV test patterns that can be passed via HDMI.

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post #1799 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 04:34 AM
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It's because your calibrated modes are using the Custom 1D LUT and that is "part" of the reason you are having issues. Only part of it though. If you remove all traces of Dolby Vision Custom 1D LUT (which unfortunately means full factory reset), manually calibrate the 22 point white balance and load a DV Config file, none of these issues are present.
^^This. This is the test you really should do next.

Also make sure you use the USB method to do the upload of the Config file, and not Calman upload. This is because we've been told Calman changes the Config file on-the-fly during the upload. For an experiment you'd want to eliminate all unknowns, and we want to be sure with 100% confidence that the same file that's created is the same one, byte-for-byte, which the TV receives. Therefore, with great sadness and regret, I'm forced to say it's not valid to use Calman to do the upload.
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post #1800 of 1829 Old 05-28-2020, 05:33 AM
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Also make sure you use the USB method to do the upload of the Config file, and not Calman upload.
Yes, manual upload of the DV Configuration file via USB is the only way I would personally suggest to do it. But to be fair it is how I've always done it anyway so as to get the confirmation message displayed on screen that the file has been loaded and accepted. I have never used the "Upload DV Config" button in AutoCAL which may also partially explain why I have seen some differences to others in the past.

Whatever the case, as soon as you touch the custom 1D LUT you get issues, and the only way I have found to fully get rid of them is a complete factory reset of the TV. Doing everything manually after that solves the issues (if done correctly).
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