2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 728 Old 01-10-2019, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk)

This thread is dedicated to the calibration and user settings for the 2019 LG OLEDs.

The thread will focus on the following:
1) The new Internal Test Pattern Generator.
2) The new HDR Tone Mapping Options and Calibration.
3) Calibration using the Calman LG Autocal process which will allow direct manipulation of the sets internal lookup tables.
4) Gray Scale, CMS, Color Volume, HDR Tone Mapping and Luminance accuracy to include 20%, 50%, 75% and 100% scans to see how the set performs overall.
5) Pros and cons of using alternate white points with this specific set.
6) Recommendations, tips, or other productive suggestions on how to properly calibrate this set and overcome any issues.
7) Near black detail, posterization and any other PQ pro's and con's specifically related to calibration.
8) Performance and user settings for SDR, HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HLG..
9) General discussion of CM Autocal on any new TVs as it relates to comparison with LG's implementation.

The idea of this thread is to encourage contributions from Home Enthusiasts and the Professionals and build a calibration knowledge base with factual, useful information that all can learn from and use as we proceed through the model year.

This thread is NOT for comparisons to other OLEDs for purchasing, for complaining about or posting pictures of Banding and or Tinting, or sharing calibration settings, or "unproductive" discussions of any "hack" that has no technical basis or merit.

This is going to be a very exciting model year with LG's new Alpha 9 V2 processor and all of the picture processing improvements they have promised along with Calman's LG Autocal calibration process
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post #2 of 728 Old 01-10-2019, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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A couple of incredibly interesting and informative videos of Neil Robinson talking about some new calibration features of the 2019 LGs taken by Robert Zohn of Value Electronics at CES to get this thread started.


This 3rd video starts off with motion but then talks about HDR peak luminance and Color Volume.
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post #3 of 728 Old 01-10-2019, 11:13 PM
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LG OLED 2019 AutoCal FAQ v2.0
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post #4 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 12:46 AM
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Let’s start this thread! I am really really interested in the 2019 LG OLED. So I’d like to ask to Mr. Tyler Pruitt @WiFi-Spy and Mr. Neil Robinson @nezil a few questions:
- is the peak luminance value for HDR10 tone mapping also customizable for HDR10 Dynamic Tone Mapping?
- if the white booster is disabled (Peak Luminance OFF) is the white pixel completely turned off or it's just not boosted? I’d bet on the second.
- do the new OLED Motion Pro function settings modify black frame insertion percentage (eg. Low=25%, Medium=37~40%, High=50%)? If not, what it really does?
- apart from the new HDMI controller, does the Alpha9 - Gen2 processor do something better compared to the previous Alpha9?
- I know that the WRGB OLED has four white subpixels, three of which have respectively a Red Green and Blue filter. I have also read that the white light of those subpixels is made by yellow and blue emitters, is that right? Does it still make sense to do a break-in of the panel?
- when will the new sets be available in the old continent?

Thank you very much!

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post #5 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 03:14 AM
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Do you believe the X-rite i1 to be sufficient hardware for the 2019 auto calibration (for HDR and SDR)?

Spectracal's website recommends the R6 or equivalent.

Would there be downsides to using the i1 over the R6?

I only have a colormunki now that I used on my E6 OLED with 3rd party software (HCFR) to great results, but would certainly consider getting Calman enthusiast and an Xrite i1 for auto cal on the new 2019 OLED's if that combination is appropriate.

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post #6 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 04:00 AM
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Yes, it will be sufficient. The C6 and the i1 Display Pro share the same hardware, the C6 has some more EDRs but, if I remember correctly, you'll find some EDRs also with the i1 Display Pro. Buy the OEM version which can read up to 2.000 nits (just like the C6 HDR2000).
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post #7 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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@Anger.miki , @ConnecTEDDD

Sorry, I threw this together quickly late last night and was intending to fine tune the opening this morning.

Edit has been made.

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post #8 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcup View Post
Do you believe the X-rite i1 to be sufficient hardware for the 2019 auto calibration (for HDR and SDR)?

Spectracal's website recommends the R6 or equivalent.

Would there be downsides to using the i1 over the R6?

I only have a colormunki now that I used on my E6 OLED with 3rd party software (HCFR) to great results, but would certainly consider getting Calman enthusiast and an Xrite i1 for auto cal on the new 2019 OLED's if that combination is appropriate.
I agree with @Anger.miki with one caveat. If you don't intend to use a spectrophotometer to profile the I1 Display Pro, the C-6HDR2000 might work better. If there is a spectral difference between the 2019 and previous panels, Spectracal will release a new EDR for the C-6. This will potentially give better results than the generic profiles available to the I1 Display Pro, whether Retail or OEM.
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post #9 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Another question along the line's of what Miki was asking about HDR calibration. Is it correct that you first do the normal HDR gamma autocalibration, then measure or read the peak luminance, then optionally set the tone mapping values accordingly?

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post #10 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 06:46 AM
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You are right John. We could do even more: a complete HDR calibration and then proceed with the specification of the tone mapping curve settings. They won’t fight each other, but as you have correctly suggested, the calibration could increase/decrease the non calibrated peak luminance. So it’s better to calibrate first. Good point John!

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post #11 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some screen shots of the new 2019 LG HDR Autocal. Please note they are from an Alpha version of CM 2019 used for CES.

The first screen shows the Display controls with the addition of setting the HDR tone mapping below. This is a blow up of the screen Neil was showing in the video.
The second shows 1000 nits tone map curve.
The third shows 4000 nits tone map curve.
The forth shows 10,000 nits tone map curve.
The fifth shows 1000 nit tone map curve vs PQ
The sixth shows 4000 nit HDR tone map full scan.
The seventh shows custom HDR tone curve verification targets.

Also notice, once you use the default or make changes, there is a tone map upload button at the bottom of the screen.
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post #12 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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I see it's using deICtCp 240, and not 720

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post #13 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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I see it's using deICtCp 240, and not 720
There no big deal which scalar is being used, just there 2 different ways... its not 720 scalar better from 240.

dEICtCp using 240 scalar trying to match a dE2000 while dEICtCp using 720 trying to match a JND, which Dolby believes that is dE 3.0, but as its known from industry standards that is dE 2.3 (See for example CalMAN's PDF: Visual Color Comparison)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Yes, it will be sufficient. The C6 and the i1 Display Pro share the same hardware, the C6 has some more EDRs but, if I remember correctly, you'll find some EDRs also with the i1 Display Pro. Buy the OEM version which can read up to 2.000 nits (just like the C6 HDR2000).
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I agree with @Anger.miki with one caveat. If you don't intend to use a spectrophotometer to profile the I1 Display Pro, the C-6HDR2000 might work better. If there is a spectral difference between the 2019 and previous panels, Spectracal will release a new EDR for the C-6. This will potentially give better results than the generic profiles available to the I1 Display Pro, whether Retail or OEM.
Thanks for the responses, really appreciate it. Seems like I'll be able to enjoy the auto-cal in relatively affordable affordable fashion.

As for the potential lack of updated profiles, I'll just have to hope the community here creates a new profile for the I1 once the 2019 panels come out

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Originally Posted by Tomcup View Post
Thanks for the responses, really appreciate it. Seems like I'll be able to enjoy the auto-cal in relatively affordable affordable fashion.

As for the potential lack of updated profiles, I'll just have to hope the community here creates a new profile for the I1 once the 2019 panels come out
That may be somewhat of a forlorn hope. For the most part, users haven't been able to share display profiles. For one thing, matrix-based profiles are individual to a specific meter and specific display. Second, such profiles created in CalMAN are saved against that particular meter's serial number and are encrypted to boot. X-Rite's system of EDRs is based on spectral data. As Ted Aspiotis has said here numerous times, using them assumes the using colorimeter's basic calibration - also based on spectral data - hasn't changed.

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post #16 of 728 Old 01-11-2019, 01:44 PM
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Unfortunately, with the already sufficiently accurate picture modes we get with modern TVs, calibrating with a i1 Display Pro (or a SpectraCal C6) is pure exercise. I learned myself (at my expense) that even a profile created with a i1 Pro 2 is not sufficient to increase the accuracy we get OOTB. My suggestion is still to buy a i1 Display Pro OEM and learn how to calibrate, when you’ll feel ready you then loan a reference spectro and create a valid profile. You will be still not so good in low lights though. What I suggested is good if you want to profile your TV by yourself, but if your goal is “only” to have your TV calibrated, the best and cheap solution is to hire a professional.
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Hmm interesting, thanks for the feedback.

I do understand that any profiles would be very device/panel specific, I did not realize they are pretty locked down.

I obtained solid results (in my eyes vs stock and theoretically according to my meter) calibrating my E6 with a colormunki and HCFR using another member's colormunki profile made on his E6 that I knew performed very similar to mine out of the box. My main goal was also to dial in the low end IREs to smooth out the panels transitions in near black content - which I resolved. My panel also had visible greyscale color errors that I was able to improve/eliminate. I've not touched HDR and find it to be very acceptable out of the box.

But I can see that newer models have much lower dE out of the box, so it would make sense to wait and see if I feel I need a more in depth calibration before getting geared up.
The thought of utilizing an auto calibration feature does excite me quite a bit though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcup View Post
Hmm interesting, thanks for the feedback.

I do understand that any profiles would be very device/panel specific, I did not realize they are pretty locked down.

I obtained solid results (in my eyes vs stock and theoretically according to my meter) calibrating my E6 with a colormunki and HCFR using another member's colormunki profile made on his E6 that I knew performed very similar to mine out of the box. My main goal was also to dial in the low end IREs to smooth out the panels transitions in near black content - which I resolved. My panel also had visible greyscale color errors that I was able to improve/eliminate. I've not touched HDR and find it to be very acceptable out of the box.

But I can see that newer models have much lower dE out of the box, so it would make sense to wait and see if I feel I need a more in depth calibration before getting geared up.
The thought of utilizing an auto calibration feature does excite me quite a bit though.
These new sets are nothing like your E6 in terms of calibration. There is virtually no near black issue anymore and with the Sony all you need to do is calibrate SDR and HDR and DV are calculated. Most sets OOTB are good but calibration will always take the PQ to the next level.
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post #19 of 728 Old 01-20-2019, 09:15 AM
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Another question for @WiFi-Spy and @nezil :
why have you preferred a TPG internal to the SoC instead of a WebOS app?
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Another question for @WiFi-Spy and @nezil :
why have you preferred a TPG internal to the SoC instead of a WebOS app?


Because the WebOS GUI elements are rendered on the screen at the end of the video pipeline so it can’t be used as a pattern generator.

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post #21 of 728 Old 01-20-2019, 12:18 PM
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Ouch. Got it, thanks so much. That just brought to my mind another question: to activate HDR/DV mode to be used with the iTPG it’s necessary to use those videos provided by LG. Is it possible to use Netflix HDR10/DV movies instead?

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post #22 of 728 Old 01-23-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Ouch. Got it, thanks so much. That just brought to my mind another question: to activate HDR/DV mode to be used with the iTPG it’s necessary to use those videos provided by LG. Is it possible to use Netflix HDR10/DV movies instead?
Yes, any HDR10 or Dolby Vision source can be used. The videos were provided in case a user / calibrator is in a situation where they have no HDR10 or Dolby Vision feed. It's also quite convenient because the the videos are 1 hour long and so give you plenty of time to get your calibration done.
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post #23 of 728 Old 01-23-2019, 01:43 PM
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Awesome. Thank you Neil, I can’t wait to buy a 65C9! any predictions of when will it be on the European shelves? The end of March?

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post #24 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Robert Zohn got an LG C9 at the store which i calibrated and wanted to post my first impressions.

I took scans of the set OOTB then manually calibrated ISF Bright with the default settings which results in approximately 255 nits. I calibrated ISF Bright because these sets are on display in the showroom and need the Bright Picture Mode.

My preliminary opinions:
1) LG improved motion handling for 2019 and now the set provides BFI which has three settings, Low, Medium and High. I found if you set it to Low, you get only slight dimming of the picture, no flashing and really good motion. Overall a nice improvement.
2) The set we got was very good calibration wise. I feel the gray scale controls on the 2019 may be slightly finer than previous LG OLEDs BUT now you have a choice of 2pt, 10pt and 22pt gray scale adjustments. In the 22pt they added two additional IRE controls at 2.5 and 7.5 which enable you to make more low IRE adjustments to get better blacks. You will need to use the CM levels editor to create a new series to calibrate in this mode.
3) Although the CMS controls all worked, it was very hard to get the CMS lined up but it could have been an issue with this specific panel. With this particular set a new Autocal 3D LUT, or even a matrix would have corredted this. The good news is all the SDR CMS controls appear to work without causing artifacts but as always, you want to keep adjustments to a minimum.
4) There is also a new feature called Peak Luminance in the Expert controls. You can set it to Low, Medium and High. From what I now understand it boosts the peak luminance using the white sub-pixel. If you go from Off to High, the SDR picture gets brighter and it looks like there is more contrast but it also lifts the black level slightly, visible with dark content. Neil Robinson says in the CES video that the most color accurate setting is OFF for SDR. For HDR it's set to HIGH.
5) I couldn't find any controls to enable the internal TPG so i'm not sure if it's enabled yet or this is something you need CM to turn on. I believe there will be new firmware enabling the feature soon.
6) HDR looked good and the peak luminance read 861 nits, with a 10% window. This is the brightest OLED panel I've ever measured. I don't have the new CM for 2019 so I couldn't test any of the new tone mapping options. Although I didn't calibrate HDR, it looks like LG is still overdriving HDR because the colors still look a little oversaturated. I'll have to see how it looks once i'm able to autocal HDR with the new process that Neil Robinson described at CES.
7) I didn't have time to look a DV but DV content looked fine.
8) The set came with Web OS 4.5. LG moved all the menus to the left side, a little more streamlined than the old WebOS.
9) The 2019 comes with eARC and VRR and a couple of other gamming features. Robert Zohn said there is a HDMI 2.1 port or ports but I have no idea how functional they are beyond what LS has reported and if they are 48 MB ports.

After calibrating the set and looking at content, the 2019 is definetly a step up in PQ vs the 2018 when compared side by side with the same content. The picture quality was nice and sharp, near blacks were perfect, motion was good, colors were accurate to the calibrated Sony's right next to it. BUT in my opinion the picture doesn't have as much POP, (highlights) as the A9F probably because of the A9F's pixel booster in SDR. I didn't measure the color volume but i'll bet the Sony is still much higher accounting for this observation. I also needed to turn the Peak Luminance control to High to make the C9 look as close as possible to the A9F even though it's set to Off by default. HDR on the other hand looks better than ever. Really bright and vibrant but you get the feeling that the picture is a little “over done” since the colors, in my opinion, were a little oversaturated. Once I’m able to calibrate HDR, we will be able to take another look.

My preliminary impression, the 2019 LG C9 is a “significant improvement” over the 2018 LG C8 although it’s reported to be using the same panel but with the new Alpha9 processer. When I say significant, everything is relative. The 2018 LG OLED was an excellent set and the improvements for 2019 make it that much better. HDR is definetly brighter, motion is still not quite as good as the Sony, but with BFI it gets really, really close. Upscaling is improved and i didn’t notice any unusual artifacts and or noise in the picture which was sharp and crisp. I'm very interested to see the PQ after using Calman Autocal to see if the result is any better with all the new finetuning LG apparently did. There is no question that LG seems to be pushing the panel "harder" this year to get more brightness but that could be at the expense of greater possibility of burn in. The logo protector is set to High at default vs Low in the 2018 sets. Some may want to know if it “blows away” the Sony A9F? in my opinion, no, but the two sets are so close with the LG giving a brighter HDR picture and having additional gaming features, that you can’t go wrong with either set.

I believe the 55 and 65 inch C9's are available at retail this week.
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post #25 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 11:54 AM
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Great post. Several of your questions (inc. no 4) are answered by Neil Robertson in the superb video that Robert filmed! So, helpfully, there is a nice record of them


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Great post. Several of your questions (inc. no 4) are answered by Neil Robertson in the superb video that Robert filmed! So, helpfully, there is a nice record of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMtiUCEenBA
Right but for Peak Luminance in SDR, it seems from the video that you would calibrate with it set to OFF but if you then after calibrating switch it to High, for example, does the set do anything to compensate? It seems like they are using the white sub pixel more when it's set to High to get more peak luminance at the cost of color accuracy.

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post #27 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 12:42 PM
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2019 LG OLED Calibration and User Settings (No price talk)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Right but for Peak Luminance in SDR, it seems from the video that you would calibrate with it set to OFF but if you then after calibrating switch it to High, for example, does the set do anything to compensate? It seems like they are using the white sub pixel more when it's set to High to get more peak luminance at the cost of color accuracy.


I don’t recommend using that feature for SDR unless you think 260-280 nits is too dim for your Day mode. That feature enables the “white boost” HDR panel mode for SDR. It will make the display become non-additive.
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post #28 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the OOTB Calman scans for the C9 that we worked on.
Pretty good but definetly needed calibration to get additional improvement.

See Attached.
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post #29 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the Post Manual calibration Calman scans.
Please note, I'm aware there are more in-depth scans needed which i'll take next time i'm working on the set at the store. This is to give everyone an initial look.

Update: I added the HDR scan. Please remember that I didn't calibrate HDR and need to update the code values but just wanted to give it an initial look.
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post #30 of 728 Old 03-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Here are the Post Manual calibration Calman scans.

Please note, I'm aware there are more in-depth scans needed which i'll take next time i'm working on the set at the store. This is to give everyone an initial look.



Update: I added the HDR scan. Please remember that I didn't calibrate HDR and need to update the code values but just wanted to give it an initial look.


Nice , lg definitely listens to feedback from calibrators industry professionals I give them a lot of credit for that .


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