LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I think there is something of unclear when setting the black level in the autocal case.
When I do manual calibration on my OLED, I eventually switch the lights, and then I set gamma, and then the best black level.
Then, I go into the dark and start my calibration.
But is the best black level ok after automatic autocalibration?
In my case not: in any case black are crunched, and I have, also in a black room, to raise brightes by 2/3 points. This implies a lower average gamma (around 0.7) and some boost at low IRE.
As you know well, there a lot of different firmware released from LG and periodically a new firmware release can affect how the panel is responding (not all the times).

So there FW released which clip near black natively, so the 1D LUT will try to resolve that during the initial 1D LUT profiling procedure.

But there times where issues can't be completely resolved using 1D LUT + 3D LUT, probably about some internal processing. So there scenarios where correcting Near Black via Brightness slider, doing RGB-High calibration (so skipping the 1D LUT profiling) and perform directly 3D LUT (which is including 33-Point Grayscale inside) will provide better final results.

From testing, even TV's with same firmware, using exact same meters and settings, but from panels coming from different market regions, to one user the 1D LUT + 3D LUT works better, to the other user skipping 3D LUT works better.

Looks like there some differences over different electronics? (there 2 kind of main board for example if you search parts for LG, tuners have difference but who knows if there other...)

Probably periodically LG is changing some stuff to different manufacturing lines or different assembling factories.... I have no idea.

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post #272 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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LG 2019 Template (C9/E9/G9/W9)for DeviceControl Interface is now available for Free to LightSpace users. Its ready a lot of time ago, and a lot of users currently using it.



The page where you submit to request access has not been updated to talk for LG 2019 release yet, but its planned to be updated when complete Guide for LG OLED Profiling for LightSpace will be released. (working on it)

The procedure is exact same as for LG 2018 Template.

Current DeviceControl Interface users, if they will refresh their Cloud, they will see the LG 2019 Template available, but see how to receive the update there: How to receive the latest LG Template Update for DeviceControl Interface.

You can see very detailed instructions about how to request free access, how to setup setup and connect your LG OLED TV using LG 2018/2019 Templates for DeviceControl Interface here.

Its not easy to copy past all the info pictures/text here.

If there interest about B9, it may added instantly, but generally people prefer to invest no other LG 2018/2019 models and not to B8/B9 models.

LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's have (33-Point Cube 3D LUT) while the LG B8/B9 has the standard version (17-Point Cube 3D LUT) of this technology.



The number of color points that can be stored is about 7.3 times greater on the LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 (35937) vs B8/B9 (4913).

The LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's advantage of having more color data points in the 3D LUT is that there are then fewer interpolated points between adjacent calibrated points compared to LG B8/B9.

This allows more accurate interpolation, fewer quantization errors, and better output value continuity at the calibrated data points, which yields fewer image artifacts and smoother color gradients in the rendered image.

Additionally, LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's users will be able use larger patchsets from the 'standard' 17-Point Cube (4913 color points), like 21-Point Cube (9261 color points) which can provide better final results.
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post #273 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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LG 2018/2019 OLED's feature 10-bit (1024 entries) 1D LUT tables with 15-bit precision values and 33-Point Cube 3D LUT tables (35937 individual colors) for C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9 or 17-Point Cube 3D LUT tables (4913 individual colors) for B8/B9 with 12bit precision values.

Internal LUT's are 0-1023 with the video black '64' mapped to '0' of the LUT's.

LG TV Black setting will remap black to '64' with Low (limited range) or to '0' with High (full range).

LightSpace's color engine will calculate the colorspace conversion LUT correction data with 16-bit precision and then export to DeviceControl Interface 1D/3D LUT file format.

LightSpace will not connect directly with the LG OLED TV's for DDC or LUT management, a FREE external user utility; DeviceControl Interface using LG 2018/2019 Template; will be used for that job.



Using LG OLED 2018/2019 Template for DeviceControl Interface you can perform basic DDC (Direct Display Control) required for initial pre-calibration adjustments but also direct upload/management of 1D/3D SDR LUT correction tables generated from LightSpace to the 5 available Picture Modes: Cinema, Technicolor Expert, ISF Expert Bright, ISF Expert Dark and Game (with low latency).

LG OLED 2018/2019 Template combined with LightSpace features a complete 1D/3D LUT backup solution.

Another advantage of 1D LUT upload capability using LG OLED 2018/2019 Template combined with LightSpace is that from one measurement run of 33-Point Grayscale (Quick Profile -> Gray Only Large), you can generate 1D LUT tables with different gamma exponent value (2.4 / 2.35 / 2.2 etc.) or using custom White Point coordinates to upload for different picture modes without taking new measurements, since you will have collected Grayscale measurement profiling data from native gamma based panel response (10000K color temperature) of the TV.

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post #274 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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LG OLED Profiling - Calibration Notes

The following calibration notes, setting or procedure recommendations can be followed by any LG 2018/2019 OLED TV user when it will be performed a display profiling using internal SDR LUT capabilities with LightSpace or CalMAN software, when DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS with madVR Renderer will be used as 3D LUT software loader, when any external hardware 3D LUT Box (eeColor LUT Box or Lumagen Processors) will be used as LUT holder device, or when only a manual SDR calibration will be performed using the available TV calibration controls by the users.

Disable Image Enhancement features

The purpose of a TV is to display the video input signal as it is, and it shall not attempt to 'enhance' or otherwise alter the image.

These TV functions below should be turned off before taking any measurement because they will affect calibration. Some can be enabled only after calibration.

1) Energy Saving:

Adjusts screen brightness automatically to reduce energy consumption. Turn it 'OFF'.

2) OLED Panel Settings -> Screen Shift:

Shifts the entire image on screen by a small number of pixels periodically. You can enable it only after calibration.

3) OLED Panel Settings -> Logo Luminance Adjustment:

Technology to recognize static logos, reduces the luminance of logos and surrounding areas. Turn it 'OFF'. You can enable it only after calibration.

4) Expert Settings > Dynamic Contrast:


Corrects the difference between the bright and dark areas of the screen for optimal results depending on the brightness of the picture. Turn it 'OFF'.

5) Expert Settings > Super Resolution:

Adjusts the resolution to make dim and blurred images clearer. Turn it 'OFF'. You can enable it after calibration.

6) Additional Settings - Eye Comfort Mode:

The color temperature will be adjusted to reduce eye fatigue. Turn it 'OFF'.

7) Picture Options > Noise Reduction:

Removes small dots that stand out so as to make the image clean. Turn it 'OFF'. You can enable it after calibration.

8) Picture Options > MPEG Noise Reduction


Reduces the noise produced during the creation of digital video signals. Turn it 'OFF'. You can enable it only after calibration.

For LG 2018 C8/E8/G8/W8 OLED TV's it will perform a quad-step MPEG Noise Reduction (with a 2-pass smooth gradation) while with LG 2018 B8 OLED TV it will perform a dual-step MPEG Noise Reduction (with a single pass smooth gradation).

This leads to a more effective banding removal on part of the LG C8/E8/G8/W8 vs B8 but given that the decontouring filters are used together with the noise reduction ones, the LG C8/E8/G8/W8 are more likely to exhibit loss of fine detail (particularly with high quality content) than the LG B8.

The MPEG Noise reduction setting, however, is granular so it's possible to find the right balance between minimizing banding artifacts that are present in the content, and keeping fine-detail largely intact.

Since the native bit-depth of the WRGB OLED panel used in LG 2018 OLED TV's is 10-bit, you'll only need to use the MPEG Noise Reduction (which controls Smooth Gradation filters) only in case the posterization is in the content (due to inadequate bitrate, for example) because otherwise all LG 2018 OLED TV's are natively capable of delivering smooth gradation (due to their 10-bit panels).

9) Picture Options >Real Cinema:

LG OLED's are using 120 Hz panels, they will do 5:5 pulldown to the 24p input signals from external sources or internal apps with Real Cinema On; for judder-free native 24p playback.

For 24fps content it will display each frame 5 times. 24 * 5 = 120, the exact refresh rate of the panel in Hz.

With Real Cinema 'OFF', the TV converts 24p input as 60p internally, this will add a 3:2 pulldown judder, even on 24p sources. Turn it 'ON'.

10) Picture Options > Motion Eye Care:

Automatically adjusts brightness and reduces image blur based on image data which reduces eyestrain. Turn it 'OFF'.

11) Picture Options >TrueMotion:


Frame interpolation and insertion to increase motion sharpness, smoothness, and reduce judder. Turn it 'OFF'.

When it's 'OFF', it will keep the 'original' signal processing without motion compensation.
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post #275 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Calibration Notes for LG 2018/2019 Profiling

Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor/TV Calibration Targets

The viewing of accurate images depends on an accurate calibration of the display, control over the viewing environment (lightning and room decor), as well as the appropriate placement of the observer relative to the screen.

The Reference Viewing Environment can be considered one where color critical decisions are made, while the Home Viewing Environment is where finalized deliverables are viewed, with the intent to best match the original artistic intent, as defined by the director and colorist within the Reference Viewing Environment.



The goad of home TV calibration is the Home Viewing Environment to match the Reference Viewing Environment image.

Within the professional industries reference monitors (Grade-1) are the standard for color critical work.



EBU TECH 3320 (Version 4.1 - September 2019) - User Requirements for Video Monitors in Television Production, defines the technical characteristics for video broadcast monitors used in a professional TV production environment for evaluation and control of the images being produced.

Its describing the definition of Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor with Standard Dynamic Range capabilities.

Grade-1 Monitors are devices for high-grade technical quality evaluation of images at key points in a color grading production workflow.

They are used for critical evaluation during post-production.

As a minimum requirement, these monitors shall have the quality properties of the image system they are used to evaluate.

It is expected that all applied technologies are state-of-the-art at this level as the Grade 1 monitor is a 'measuring instrument' for visual evaluation of image quality.

Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitor should be been calibrated and capable to produce a reference luminance level of 100 cd/m2 (nits) for 100% White (235 level @ 8-bit) patch on the screen.

Automatic Brightness Limiter (ABL) functions shall not be used for Grade-1 SDR Reference Monitors, this means that the monitor need to be capable to display 100 cd/m2 with a full field 100% Reference White pattern also.

100% luminance on the screen corresponds to a 10-bit luma signal of digital level 940, and the black level corresponds to a 10-bit luma signal of digital level 64.

100% luminance on the screen is defined as the luminance of a luma signal of digital level 940, but levels 941 through 1019 should also be correctly displayed.

The highest value of 10-bit luma signal is digital level 1019. The luma level 1019 is called 'Super-White' or '109% White'.

For the luminance gamma characteristic (Electro-Optical Transfer Function) of the screen, its recommended that a nominal value of 2.4 gamma to be used.

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post #276 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Color Matching Functions & Metamerism

The CIE 1931 color matching functions (CMFs) are the basis of all colorimetric measurement systems.

Earlier studies intended to correct historical imperfections in the original data used as the basis of the CIE 1931 CMFs, but like the CIE 1964 Supplementary Standard Observer, have never found widespread favor, because they result in different numbers across the whole colorspace.

Color scientists attempted to define a more accurate CMF but they resulted in a set of CMFs which can solve the metamerism issue for discrete populations of individuals but this would probably not be practical in an operational environment.

These inaccuracies were not a problem when all display devices were CRTs with color reproduction based on very similar phosphors.

With the introduction of LCD displays with LED backlights, and now OLED displays, it has become apparent that these errors result in displays where the white points match when measured may look different, and when matched visually may measure differently.

For Matching Displays that use Different Illumination Technologies, the Perceptual White Point Matching method can be used.

Using a custom coordinate White Point, it may be a practical compromise such that the display may meet both the requirements of written standards, and enable the visual match that is so important in the television production environment.

LG Electronics with Dolby Laboratories have published an article during SID's Display Week 2018, its available inside to SID Symposium Digest of Technical Papers - Volume 49, Issue 1 (May 2018) issue.

For that study, 'Correcting Metameric Failure of Wide Color Gamut Displays', using 13 reliable observers they performed a visual color matching method trying to match a Reference Grade-1 CRT with the LG OLED and they found that to perceptual match the Reference White of CRT, a custom White Point with x: 0.308 y: 0.313 coordinates has to be used for the LG OLED.

Also LG has worked closely with Technicolor to incorporate Technicolor's in-house D65 perceptual match White Point target, by adding a custom target white point with co-ordinates of x: 0.300 y: 0.327.

But these coordinates are not really working, because Technicolor tried to match a Xenon DCI Cinema Projector as reference (with DCI primaries and D65 White Point), so these coordinates are only helpful for those which are working in post-production and use LG OLED's as client view monitors, for the commercial cinema release of the movie.

For home video release of a movie, a projector as reference is never being used, only with monitors its been performed the mastering of SDR home release of the movies, so there no point for anyone to use a Technicolor custom White Point (for home viewing).

As usual with that recommendation, LG has confused once again the consumer world, it has done it at past many times, with various PDF's with calibration notes for HDR calibration which never worked (even the digital values where incorrect to these PDF, digital bits of PQ % levels).

Each colorspace (REC.709 for home release or DCI-P3 for commercial cinema release) while they use exact the same xy coordinates to create the D65 White Point, each colorspace is using different mixture of primary colors luminance to archive that, while both have 6504K color temperature.

When you use the RGB Balance Chart of a calibration software and see the three (R/G/B) Channels Bars at exact 100% = 0 dE; doesn't mean that it has been used equal percentage of luminance per each color channel.

The calibration software it's doing the normalizing the luminance ratio per primary color internally according to the selected colorspace target options to provide to the user interface a more calibration friendly chart.



REC.709 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52% and Blue 7.22% luminance per each color channel.

DCI-P3 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using Red 22.9%, Green 69.17% and Blue 7.93% luminance per each color channel.

REC.2020 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using 26.27%, Green 67.80% and Blue 5.93% luminance per each color channel.
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post #277 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Calibration Notes for LG OLED

HDMI Ultra HD Deep Color



That setting name can confuse users because it's not clearly describing what is actually doing.

Historically, outputting a 'Deep Color' video signal from HDMI is one of the specifications found in the HDMI 1.3 format.

HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.

Deep Color support will allow to use additionally the xvYCC expanded colorspace, named also as Extended-gamut YCC or x.v.Color. (IEC 61966-2-4:2006)

Using xvYCC-encoded movie titles like Sony's 'Mastered in 4K' SDR Blu-Ray Discs, it will allow to travel through existing digital YCC data paths of YCC values that, while within the encoding range of YCC, have chroma values outside the range 16-240, or that correspond to negative RGB values, and hence would not have previously been valid.

LG 2018 OLED TV's are equipped with 4 HDMI 2.0b (HDCP 2.2) input ports while LG 2019 TV's are equipped with 4 HDMI 2.1 (HDCP 2.3).

For each HDMI Input, the LG UltraHD Deep Color setting will provide the capability to swap between two different pixel clock rates of video signal transfer, which will affect the supported resolutions/bit-depth per colorspace also.

With LG 2018 UltraHD Deep Color 'ON', the HDMI Input will be clocked @ 600 MHz and capable for up to 18 Gbps data rate.

With LG 2019 UltraHD Deep Color 'ON', the HDMI Input will be clocked @ 1.2 GHz and capable for up to 48 Gbps data rate.

With LG 2018/1029 UltraHD Deep Color 'OFF', the HDMI Input will be clocked @ 300 MHz and capable for up to 10.2 Gbps data rate.

As Deep Color defined the capability to transfer higher from 8-bit per color channel video signal, you can actually send UltraHD with 'Deep Color' with that setting disabled, if you will send SDR or HDR10 2160p24 YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit as it requires only 8.91 Gbit data rate.

If you have an UHD capable player (or SDR with 2160p upscalling) then set LG's UltraHD Deep Color to 'ON' while if you have an SDR capable player then set it to 'OFF'.
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post #278 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Calibration Notes for LG OLED


LG OLED Panel Auto Brightness Limiting (ABL)

The Peak Luminance of all LG 2018/2019 OLED TV's models is identical.

But there is an ABL (Auto Brightness Limiter) active at all these LG OLED TV's for the purpose of preventing them to consume too much power when displaying content with preponderance of bright elements, and protecting internal components from overheating.

The impact of the ABL, however, is limited to high-APL content such as hockey and winter sports during which can be observed a brightness reduction as the APL increases.

APL is the average level brightness (Luma) of the total numbers of pixel of an video image frame; defined as a percentage of the range between blanking and reference white level.



The LG 2018/2019 OLED TV's are able to reach about 150 cd/m2 on 100% APL using when you will take measurement using an 100% White full field pattern, so there is still some brightness headroom even for high-APL scenes because SDR content is mastered to a 100 cd/m2.

For reference level SDR movie home playback; for being considered as 'Grade-1'; the TV should be capable to display calibrated colors using the color primaries (REC.709 color gamut) and reference white (D65), as specified in the relevant SDR video standard ITU-R BT.709-6 (Parameter values for the HDTV standards for production and international programme exchange - June 2015).
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post #279 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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LG OLED Panel Automatic Static Brightness Limiter (ASBL)

LG OLED TV's have a function which we call it in calibration world as ASBL (Automatic Static Brightness Limiter).

This function is enabled by default to all OLED's and it will automatically dim the picture when OLED TV will detect that you are displaying static images (like patterns windows during measurements/profiling) after some period of time.

ASBL works by detecting APL changes.

This function needs to be disabled before taking any measurement because it will affect calibration and panel response. If you like; you can enable it after the end of the calibration, or leave it disabled forever.



To disable that ASBL function ('TCP' is called in Service Menu), you will need to enter to IN-START LG OLED TV Service Menu.

There several methods to access the Service Menu here, or you can buy the LG Service Menu Remote Control from eBay; search for 'MKJ39170828' Remote.

It can be used also the AnyMote App from any smartphone equipped with build-in IR transmitter.



Use the IN-START button to access the LG OLED TV Service Menu, it will ask for a password, type '0413', navigate to '13. OLED', and set the TCP to Off.

Its recommended to check if the TCP setting will stay at 'off' after you will install a newer LG OLED TV Firmware Update or when you will perform reset to factory default settings (Reset to Initial Settings).
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post #280 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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LG Video Signal Processing Pipeline Info

LG 2018/2019 OLED image processing chain seems to be:



HDMI Input Signal -> Contrast / Brightness -> 3D LUT -> 1D LUT -> 3x3 Matrix - 1D LUT -> 1D LUT -> OLED Light -> Display Panel.

There 3x1D LUTs (1024-Point) one for each Red, Green and Blue channel. (Red 1D LUT Box of the video chain diagram)

After the 3D LUT (we can upload), there is a De-Gamma 1D LUT (un-does the default gamma by applying reverse gamma values) followed by a 3x3 Matrix (for color transform) followed by a Re-Gamma 1D LUT (it will re-apply the default gamma) followed by the 1D LUT (we can upload).

The 3x3 Matrix can be used for linear scale color transformation between different colorspaces. Its a simple mathematical formula that can reposition, rotate, and scale, so describing the global size/position of the gamut, but not manage the internal (volumetric) content in a non-linear fashion.

De-Gamma LUT, 3x3 Matrix and Re-Gamma LUT are disabled by loading UNITY values during the Reset LUT procedure of LG Template with DeviceControl.

Also OLED Light is an OLED Panel gain control and is separate from the video signal path.

The TV's Video Signal Pipeline needs to minimize image artifacts due to rounding errors and image gradation errors; from colorspace conversions/processing etc.

For that reason, the bit-depth of the 3D and 1D LUT's in the signal pipeline should be at least 2 bits greater than the video input, and the bit depth of the signal processing should be at least 2 bits greater than that of the LUT's.

Because the diagram above designed without having access to the exact video pipeline diagram from any LG Engineer, some additional processing steps are missing from the diagram picture.

For example, the 3x3 matrix conversion of YCbCr to RGB before data will enter the LUT's stages, the Input Range Mapping (LG TV Black Level Control), the RGB to YCbCr 3x3 matrix for internal calibration controls adjustments.

For some internal calibration controls; like CMS adjustments of Hue/Saturation/Luminance; the video processing operations must be performed in a linear luminance domain, in a YCbCr colorspace with one luminance and two color difference channels.

According to that way the 1D LUT is implemented in the LG OLED TV, you must do the 1D LUT first, and then the 3D LUT profiling. If you change the 1D LUT you must re-do the 3D LUT. But if you change the 3D LUT only, you don't need to re-do the 1D LUT.

As the 3D LUT is placed before other LUT's and other adjustment stages (like White Balance when internal 1D LUT capability will not be used), this means that 3D LUT can be properly calibrated only after the calibration of all other stage adjustments (Internal 1D LUT or White Balance when internal 1D LUT will not be used) has been completed.

For the internal 1D LUT to work as expected; because the Contrast/Brightness controls are located before the 1D/3D LUT tables; set Contrast @ 85*, Brightness @ 50 and Color @ 50 value settings. (* additionally, it will be described a profiling method which will work by setting Contrast @ 100 also, but it will clip 'headroom').

When Internal 1D+3D LUT capabilities are used, normal menu settings (White Balance, Color Temperature, Gamma, Color Gamut and Color Management System) are disabled, even service menu calibration values are bypassed, the panel will have native 10000K color temperature and ~2.2 Gamma response.

The normal TV menu picture mode settings: Contrast, Brightness, Color and Tint should stay at default values (these are the bypass processing values) because they are positioned before the 3D/1D LUT tables.

OLED Light can be adjusted to reach the target luminance level during pre-calibration procedure but not adjust it after the profiling or when any 1D/3D correction LUT has been uploaded internally to the TV.

The LG 2018 C8/E8/G8/W8 OLED TV's use the Alpha 9 processor while the LG B8 is equipped with the Alpha 7 processor. (LG 2017 models had Alpha 7)

Both processors (α7/α9) have quad cores (CPU) running at 1.008 GHz frequency. The graphics processor has dual cores (GPU) running at 700 MHz frequency. Each processor has the same built-in 8 GB DDR4 ROM eMMC flash memory. But α9 has 3 GB DDR4 RAM while α7 has 2GB DDR4 RAM.

In terms of their technical characteristics, the processors are almost the same and use the same cores of the main and graphics processor. Of course, it may be that in α9 cores of a newer generation are used. But most likely, the difference between processors in the amount of RAM.

As different image processor used, this also affects some other processing techniques such as Sharpness and Depth Enhancements. The LG 2018 C8/E8/G8/W8 have a Frequency-based Sharpness Enhancer, in addition to Object-based Depth Enhancer while the LG B8 utilizes a standard Sharpness Enhancer, and Edge-based Depth Enhancer. These picture enhancements do not need to be used when watching high quality content, so the advantage of LG C8/E8/G8/W8 have over the LG B8 is limited only to low resolution/quality sources.

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Near Black Issues from poor factory Quality Control

Some LG OLED's have passed the factory QC (Quality Control) with near black clipping issues and shipped to stores, for these panels it will be required to adjust the Brightness to 55-56 or up to 60-61 (in worst case scenario) from the default 50 value for the near black clipping issue to be resolved.



Also it will not work any service menu sub-adjustment related to Brightness when you will use internal 1D LUT capability.

By adjusting the sub-brightness in the service menu it will cause the 1D LUT points to be misaligned at near black, set Sub-brightness to default 128 value.

When you have such issues with near black clipping and you see that 1D LUT profiling can't resolve completely the problem (with Brightness @ 50 setting as required for internal 1D LUT to work) then you can skip using the internal 1D LUT completely and resolve the problem by adjusting Brightness control to whatever values you see that is not providing any clipping (while it will not raise your native panel black level) and then start the 3D LUT profiling measurements.

If you will skip performing 1D LUT profiling, select Warm 2 color temperature, Gamma 2.2 preset, Wide Color Space and the adjust Brightness/Contrast to the value you see that is correct for your TV. Perform also only 100% White (or 109% White) pre-calibration using RGB-High Controls only (keep one color channel at zero and reduce values from other 2 channels) while adjusting OLED Light you will control the luminance output (nits). Don't use RGB balance controls to adjust the Luminance output levels. After these pre-calibration adjustments you can proceed to 3D LUT profiling.

For expert users, its recommended instead of adjusting normal TV menu White Balance settings, to adjust only the White Balance values of color temperature from inside the TV's Service Menu only. The reason for that is because the normal menu White Balance settings combined with White Balance of Service Menu settings to work as offset from the native panel, and when you have active two controls which are performing the same job, this can make the internal processing algorithm more complex, so its better idea one White Balance menu to be used only to adjust from native panel response and not from both menus (normal TV + service) the same time.

White Balance settings of 'Warm' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Warm 2' preset of Normal TV Menu.

White Balance settings of 'Medium' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Warm 1' preset of Normal TV Menu.

White Balance settings of 'Cool' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Cool' preset of Normal TV Menu.

LG's factory pre-calibrate these service menu White Balance color temperature modes using a 80% Gray pattern with 6500K for 'Warm', 9300K for 'Medium' and 11000K for 'Cool'.



Use the EZ-ADJ button of Service Remote to access the LG OLED TV Service Menu, it will ask for a password, type '0413', navigate to '12. White Balance', and select the color temperature you want to adjust.

If you want to adjust for example the 'Medium' of Service Menu, start by setting the default 192 value to R-Gain, G-Gain and B-Gain and 64 value to R-Cut, G-Cut and B-Cut controls.



When R/G/B gain in the OSD is at 192 value, it means that the panel works at its Full Dynamic Range. In order to prevent saturation of Full Dynamic range and data, one of R/G/B channels need to be fixed at 192 value, for pre-calibrating the White Balance, lower only the other two channels.

Be careful with IN-STOP button, don't press it, because it will perform a complete factory reset, it will reset the TV's UTT (number of panel usage hours) counter which will affect the compensation cycle operation.

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Differences between YCbCr and RGB-Video Colorspaces of HDMI Input Video Signal

All available LG OLED TV models (2015/2016/2017/2018/2019) are processing differently the colorspace of the HDMI input signal; when you will compare by taking meter measurement using patches between RGB-Video and YCbCr input signal, there will be a measurable difference.

As we know, any available consumer SDR movie content has been encoded using YCbCr colorspace with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling.

Devices usually used for movie playback; like stand-alone Blu-Ray Players, Media Players or Network Streamers, with proper configuration of their video output settings (when it's been disabled any video processing enhancement) they can provide a bit-perfect REC.709 YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 colorspace video signal output.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between the digital pixel error analysis of 5 different Blu-Ray or UltraHD Players with YCbCr 4:4:4 colorspace video output using Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Blu-Ray with CalMAN's ColorChecker Classic and 100% Color Gamut patches as measured using DVDO's AVLab TPG Color Checker function:



Notebook or Desktop PC's (not all chipsets/brands, under proper configuration), PGenerator (Raspberry Pi based) or Amazon FireTV Stick using LightSpace Connect; they can provide bit perfect RGB-Video patch generation, they are not able to generate bit-perfect YCbCr patches.

But if you will use RGB-Video patterns for profiling and later playback from a YCbCr video output playback device, there will be some differences coming from some internal TV processing colorspace conversions.

LG TV's during their image processing path they will do many mathematical operations on the video data signal.

Usually these colorspace conversions are performed with a significant higher bit-depth from the actual video data signal depth, as higher bit-precision will be used, as lower will be the chance of seeing visible banding caused by the color quantization.

LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.

The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.



Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.

I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step.

When you have the PC Icon enabled on the HDMI input where the pattern generator is connected and configured to output 60p patches, then the HDMI Video Input lag will be reduced. (lower latency)

Before the YCbCr video signal will enter the first LUT table, it will be converted using a standard linear 3x3 colorspace conversion matrix to RGB and after all the LUT processing it will be converted down to 10-bit RGB for the panel.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between two post-verification result pictures:



The animated picture showcases the difference between 10-bit RGB-Video and 10-bit YCbCr REC.709 patterns using for verification CalMAN's ColorChecker SG patchset (96 colors).

There is a shifting to colors with larger differences to darker colors.

That test has been performed using a Klein K-10A colorimeter with the Accupel DVG-6000 Ultra Plus (with Pro Engineering Option) Reference external hardware pattern generator.

So the ideal solution (for the best image fidelity) is to use an external and bit-perfect YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 REC.709 for SDR patch generation solution, to emulate exactly the same HDMI input colorspace you will send to the display when you will playback a movie also, this will avoid the colorspace conversion differences and you will have you full video chain calibrated, including all the colorspace conversions, when you will use a bit-perfect stand-alone player.

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post #283 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Differences between patch generation framerates of HDMI Input Video Signal

Image characteristics are sensitive to different input video signal refreshing rates.

The following animated PNG file will swap with one second interval between two verification results pictures:



The animated picture showcase the difference between 1080i50 and 1080p60 patch generation, 56-Point Grayscale measurements used for that test.

There is a gamma shifting at the bottom and top end of the grayscale.

That test has been performed using a Klein K-10A colorimeter with the Accupel DVG-6000 Ultra Plus (with Pro Engineering Option) Reference external hardware pattern generator.

So the ideal solution (for the best image fidelity) is to use an external and bit-perfect patch generator configure to output 24p, to emulate exactly the same framerate you will send to the display when you will playback a movie also.

For external pattern generator users, it will be easy to change framerate output setting.

For PGenerator (Raspberry Pi based) users, they can change the framerate setting using DeviceControl Interface:



For Amazon FireTV Stick with LightSpace Connect users, the standard display settings menu has only resolution options.

Using Fire OS 5 (or later) you can change the video output framerate (24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, or 60p) by holding REVERSE and UP buttons simultaneously on the FireTV Stick remote for 10 seconds, the device will begin to cycle through additional resolution/framerate options not available in the standard display settings menu.


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post #284 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Other Pre-Calibration Notes

1) The LUT upload per each Picture Mode (Cinema, Technicolor Expert, ISF Expert Bright, ISF Expert Dark or Game) it will affect all HDMI inputs globally (or internal apps). But it will be required to copy/transfer the Picture Mode, Expert Controls and Picture Options of the specific HDMI Input used for patch generation to the other HDMI Inputs you will use.

2) To start calibrating, you need to upload UNITY (1:1 Input:Output) LUT’s, to perform that ‘reset’ the user has to press “Reset 1D Lut” “Send Icon” and also “Reset 3D Lut” “Send Icon”. Both LUT tables on LG will be reset to UNITY.

If you will not use the internal 1D LUT, then you shouldn't reset the 1D LUT (by sending UNITY 1D LUT) from LG Template of Device Control Interface, because this action will disable the White Balance calibration controls, something you will need for pre-calibrating 100% or 109% White. Reset only the 3D LUT table.

3) You can adjust only OLED Light while you will pre-calibrate but don’t adjust OLED Light after the profiling.

4) For Video Levels (16-235) or Video Levels Extended (16-255) display profiling, set to your LG TV Black Level @ Low.

5) Before starting any measurement, the display should be working for at least one hour, to stabilize during that warm-up period.

6) Panel luminance will decrease if the input signal remains static for more than two minutes; change the test pattern to refresh the screen luminance.

At high luminance levels, heat generated in OLED panels can result in difficulties achieving repeatable results.

7) When RGB-Video patch generation will be used (16-235) or RGB-Video Extended (16-255) then there no difference if the bit-depth output of the patch generator will be 8 or 10 or 12-bits.

But when YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 patch generation will be used, its recommended to set the bit-depth output of the patch generator to 10 or 12-bit (not 8-bit).

Calibration software will send request of 8-bit RGB triplet values with colorspace output flag also to the generator processor and from there the RGB triplet values will be converted to YCbCr colorspace, the 3x3 colorspace conversion matrix (RGB-Video -> YCbCr) calculation will introduce some rounding errors when the output will be 8-bit, so having pre-configured the output as 10 or 12-bit, this will compensate for rounding errors.

There no 1:1 mapping between RGB and YCbCr colorspaces. There YCbCr values with no corresponding RGB values and RBG values with no corresponding YCbCr values.

Only about 60% of all RGB values can be represented in YCbCr space when you will use the same amount of bits for both triplets.

This means the most damage happens in RGB -> YCbCr when you take a 3 * 8-bit RGB triplet, convert and round it back to 3* 8-bits of precision.

For that reason is recommended to set YCbCr colorspace bit-depth output of the pattern generator to 10 or 12-bit.

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post #285 of 307 Old 08-03-2019, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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All above posts cover the 1) and 2) of the following steps which are important for proper configuration/recommendation of hardware/software settings for LG 2018/2019 OLED TV profiling using LightSpace CMS and LG Template for DeviceControl Interface:

1) Connect your LG 2018 OLED with LG Template of DeviceControl Interface.

2) Calibration Notes.


3) Patch Generation Settings.

4) Meter Settings.

5) Pre-Roll Settings.

6) Display Profiling Options.

7) 1D LUT Display Profiling Patchsets.

8) 3D LUT Display Profiling Patchsets.

9) 1D LUT Display Profiling Procedure.

10) 3D LUT Display Profiling Procedure.

I will update once I will complete the other steps, with same way of very detailed instructions which no-one else ever provided for these TV's, in global calibration community.
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For quick reference, until I will post further setting recommendations, below you can find the actual AVSForum users post links (with posted settings of software/hardware settings they used) from several succesful profiling using LG 2018 OLED's with LG Template of DeviceControl Interface and LightSpace for LUT generation. Some of them used CalMAN as additional verification tool to cross-check the post-calibration final results which LightSpace has produced/generated (not used CalMAN for calibration/profiling to the charts they posted).

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 18.
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LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread

I've did a bunch of test the last couple days and tried to think outside the box.

I was able to get rid of the high dE error for that specific dark brown color which I had before and @jrref couldn't get rid of.

The results speak for them self for now I'm pretty satisfied and can say that the new hybrid mode is definitely a huge step forward to increase the overall accuracy of the 3D LUT.

I used a set which contains 101 grayscale points. Would love to see other results as well

I used CalMAN for cross verification.













LightSpace Calibration Report
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XvT...w?usp=drivesdk

TV: LG OLED 65C8 Sources: Apple TV 4K, OPPO UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
Probe: Klein K10-A, i1 Display Pro OEM Rev.B (2018), i1Pro2 OEM Rev.E Software: Lightspace HTP, Calman 2019 Ultimate

Last edited by BlackJoker; 08-03-2019 at 04:00 PM.
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@ConnecTEDDD Since one should use YCbCr patterns for signals encoded in YCbCr, would the inverse apply when calibrating an input for a video game console and/or PC (gaming or otherwise). As I believe consoles output in RGB in SDR, as do PC video signals, should one use RGB patterns for picture modes for these? An example of my scenario: UB820 player, PS4 Pro/Xbox One X/Switch/PC, I would then do the following to ensure best accuracy:

ISF Bright/Dark For SDR Movies: YCbCR Patterns
SDR Game Mode: RGB Patterns
Cinema/Technicolor as day/night for PC: RGB Patterns

For HDR everything is in YCbCr so this wouldn't be an issue there. And thanks for the info on how you should make sure to match the source signal on the LG.
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Hi Ted,
I have LG C8 and was wondering if I can completely switch off abl but I guess it is not possible.
Thank you for reply.
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post #290 of 307 Old 08-12-2019, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin-X View Post
@ConnecTEDDD Since one should use YCbCr patterns for signals encoded in YCbCr, would the inverse apply when calibrating an input for a video game console and/or PC (gaming or otherwise). As I believe consoles output in RGB in SDR, as do PC video signals, should one use RGB patterns for picture modes for these? An example of my scenario: UB820 player, PS4 Pro/Xbox One X/Switch/PC, I would then do the following to ensure best accuracy:

ISF Bright/Dark For SDR Movies: YCbCR Patterns
SDR Game Mode: RGB Patterns
Cinema/Technicolor as day/night for PC: RGB Patterns

For HDR everything is in YCbCr so this wouldn't be an issue there. And thanks for the info on how you should make sure to match the source signal on the LG.
Hi,

My recommendation apply to any kind of calibration performed, for 3D LUT or manual calibration, and its not affecting only LG OLED's but other brands/models also.

Since we are aiming to have the best possible results, all details like that one is important to improve the final results.

When its possible, you always have to use the some colorspace during patch generation as you will use later for the content playback.

If we talk for specifically for LG OLED 2018, when you want to watch a movie from the HDMI input, then the ideal is to use YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 10/12 bit patch generation and set all your players (Blu-Ray/Media Player/Network Streamer) to have output YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 with 10/12-bit.

About patch generation you need at least 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (as explained to the '7' here). If it will be 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, it doesn't matter so much since the patterns are solid colors window so there will be not any difference to the up-sampling.

About YCbCr player output setting, between 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 ; 10-12bit... your selection will be related with what device will do better the color up-sampling, the TV or player?...... or if its better to send the resolution as native 1080p for SDR movie or to upscale to 2160p, there you have to perform evaluation to find what device do better up-scalling....for both kind of tests you can use the S&M calibration disk which has colorspace evaluation patterns.

Since content is YCbCr 4:2:0 compressed video, the player has to do at least the vertical upsampling 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, and then see if the TV or the Source is the better choice to do the horizontal upsampling (4:2:2 to 4:4:4).

About your Panasonic UB820 Blu-Ray Player, set it to YCbCr 4:4:4, it will do better job that the LG OLED for sure.

All the for movies which are 24p YCbCr, now for games....

For XBOX One/PS4/Switch, since games need 2160p60, you don't have many choices.

With 2160p60 you are limited to 8-bit with RGB because the bandwidth required for the connection is 17.82 Gbit.

TV's/Players chips for input/output signal with HDMI 2.0 can transfer up to 18 GBit so you can't do 10 bit RGB with 2160p (8-bit is not enough for HDR also)

So select 2160p60 YCbCr for the consoles and probably they will output 4:2:0 with 10 or 12 bit.

HDR10 need 10-bit so you can't transfer 2160p60 RGB 10-bit with 2.0 HDMI chips.

I don't have info about how consoles internally are handling the graphics, the logic says at RGB (so uncompressed) so later the player to the output will compress to YCbCr to be able to output 2160p.

But worth to test if 1080p60 RGB-Video 12-bit output will look better with SDR games (or 2160p60 8bit SDR), and enable also the PC Icon of the LG, for the TV to be able to receive full chroma and bypass the internal conversion to 4:2:2 required for some procesing stages (works for 59.97p or 60p only). The only problem there it will be the gradation because panel with work at 8-bit. But worth to test and see.

Some tests I performed early last year with XBOX One S (I don't remember the FW version), when you were playing an UltraHD HDR 2160p24 movie, with settings: 2160p, 8/10/12 bit...then it will playback outputing with 2160p24 HDR 10bit RGB-Video (doesn't matter if you have selected previously 8/10/12), but generally it had wrong colorspace conversion matrix when I tested (YCbCr 2020 -> RGB chroma bug) With REC.709 YCbCr -> RGB-Video it had no problem, but I found some 'roundnng' digital errors, which was slight different if you were playing a disk or USB, for details see there.

But when you playback 2160p HDR10 movie (Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), which is UltraHD HDR 2160p60....

With settings: 2160p, 12 bit (4:2:2 Enabled) it will playback with 2160p60 HDR 10bit YCbCr 4:2:2.

With settings: 2160p, 12 bit (4:2:2 Disabled) it will playback with 2160p60 HDR 10bit YCbCr 4:2:0.

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p60

Settings: 1080p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 1080p60 8/10/12 bit RGB-Video

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p24

Settings: 1080p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 1080p24 8/10/12 bit RGB

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p24

Settings: 2160p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 2160p24 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4

------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by tony_bcc View Post
Hi Ted,
I have LG C8 and was wondering if I can completely switch off abl but I guess it is not possible.
Thank you for reply.
Hi,

For SDR, you can have no ABL when you will have peak output of 100% White calibrated with max 150-160 nits.

When you go higher, the panel will be more unstable over the time and drift will be increased.

There image processing circuit with algorithm to detect (checking APL in RGB) and reduce the values it will send to the controller where the RGB 10-bit (3x10-bit) values will be converted to WRGB 10-bit (4x10-bit) for the panel, there others algorithms also to protect internal components from overheating or voltage driving issues, static images, for not consuming too much power etc.

LG 2018 OLEDs can reach and maintain approximately 400 nits with up to 70% APL (Average Picture Level), meaning that they have enough brightness headroom to be comfortably used in bright environments for watching low-to-mid APL content (the most of movies and TV series) for day mode calibration (secondary priority calibration).

The impact of the ABL will be more noticed with high-APL content such as hockey and winter sports, as brighter reduction will start when the picture APL will be increased.

For the day view, 320 nits calibrated with gamma 2.2 looks like a good choice for day viewing, if its comfortable for the eyes, it has to do with the room/lights/windows etc.

But for Reference night night, any Automatic Brightness Limiter (ABL) functions shall not be enabled, so 100 nits should be the calibrated luminance target for SDR.

Before a lot of years, when for HD SDR mastering Sony reference CRT's being used, 100 nits was the reference white also, while some studios in Europe were using lower luminance, 80 nits.

When you go higher from 100 nits with LG WRGB OLED, the volumetric, non-linear and non-additive issues will be increased also, these issues can be corrected only by using a 3D LUT.

To give you one example that may help further, the following pictures shows one LG 65C9 WRGB OLED profiled with 100 nits peak output, measured using 21-Point Cube (9261 measurements).

ColourSpace (not yet released) software used for the graphs.

The target colorspace is the native panel colorspace of the display, so should be 100% accurate if the display had no inherent issues.

This means that you measure the panel to its native mode and then you validate creating a new colorspace based to native primaries/white point/ average gamma you measured.

You can easily see the very large non-linear volumetric errors!



The green points showing measurements that have a sub-1 dE2000 error.

Orange points are between 1 and 2.3 dE2000.

Red points are above 2.3 dE2000.

All the Red points show errors over 2.3 dE.

Looking the 3D CIE xyY graph, the areas of errors are easier to plot:



And with Tangenet lines (plots of the errors, shows where the point should actually be):



And as a Normalized 3D Cube, where the non-linear errors inherent within the display are very easy to spot - the scalloping at the edge for example:



And with Tangent Lines:



Note the way the tangent lines change direction, denoting severe volumetric non-linear errors.

If you have a non-linear system, you need a full 3D model to manage better what you want to do.

The greater the non-linearity, the bigger the size of the 3D LUT required to manage it.

This example above works as an 'early but next generator and truly professional way to evaluate a display at really deep/high level, of its real performance, an example for 'professional reviewers', as for better understanding the real issues, it will require more advanced methodology than using a typical/limited patch-set and classic verification methods.

The above procedure, for LightSpace users, its relatively easy to perform, by profiling the display with a large cube based profile (with the display set to its native, un-calibrated setting), generating a new Color Space with the peak RGB & W values, as well as the average gamma (click to generate report to see the average gamma), and then generating a LUT with the Source as the new color space, and Destination as the actual profile.

The graphs will not be such advanced as ColourSpace but a closer cook of the generated LUT to the 'UNITY' (full cube with equaled spaced dots, when you will look the 3D Cube Graphics LUT Viewer) the better will be the underlying capabilities of the display.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

My recommendation apply to any kind of calibration performed, for 3D LUT or manual calibration, and its not affecting only LG OLED's but other brands/models also.

Since we are aiming to have the best possible results, all details like that one is important to improve the final results.

When its possible, you always have to use the some colorspace during patch generation as you will use later for the content playback.

If we talk for specifically for LG OLED 2018, when you want to watch a movie from the HDMI input, then the ideal is to use YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 10/12 bit patch generation and set all your players (Blu-Ray/Media Player/Network Streamer) to have output YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 with 10/12-bit.

About patch generation you need at least 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (as explained to the '7' here). If it will be 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, it doesn't matter so much since the patterns are solid colors window so there will be not any difference to the up-sampling.

About YCbCr player output setting, between 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 ; 10-12bit... your selection will be related with what device will do better the color up-sampling, the TV or player?...... or if its better to send the resolution as native 1080p for SDR movie or to upscale to 2160p, there you have to perform evaluation to find what device do better up-scalling....for both kind of tests you can use the S&M calibration disk which has colorspace evaluation patterns.

Since content is YCbCr 4:2:0 compressed video, the player has to do at least the vertical upsampling 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, and then see if the TV or the Source is the better choice to do the horizontal upsampling (4:2:2 to 4:4:4).

About your Panasonic UB820 Blu-Ray Player, set it to YCbCr 4:4:4, it will do better job that the LG OLED for sure.

All the for movies which are 24p YCbCr, now for games....

For XBOX One/PS4/Switch, since games need 2160p60, you don't have many choices.

With 2160p60 you are limited to 8-bit with RGB because the bandwidth required for the connection is 17.82 Gbit.

TV's/Players chips for input/output signal with HDMI 2.0 can transfer up to 18 GBit so you can't do 10 bit RGB with 2160p (8-bit is not enough for HDR also)

So select 2160p60 YCbCr for the consoles and probably they will output 4:2:0 with 10 or 12 bit.

HDR10 need 10-bit so you can't transfer 2160p60 RGB 10-bit with 2.0 HDMI chips.

I don't have info about how consoles internally are handling the graphics, the logic says at RGB (so uncompressed) so later the player to the output will compress to YCbCr to be able to output 2160p.

But worth to test if 1080p60 RGB-Video 12-bit output will look better with SDR games (or 2160p60 8bit SDR), and enable also the PC Icon of the LG, for the TV to be able to receive full chroma and bypass the internal conversion to 4:2:2 required for some procesing stages (works for 59.97p or 60p only). The only problem there it will be the gradation because panel with work at 8-bit. But worth to test and see.

Some tests I performed early last year with XBOX One S (I don't remember the FW version), when you were playing an UltraHD HDR 2160p24 movie, with settings: 2160p, 8/10/12 bit...then it will playback outputing with 2160p24 HDR 10bit RGB-Video (doesn't matter if you have selected previously 8/10/12), but generally it had wrong colorspace conversion matrix when I tested (YCbCr 2020 -> RGB chroma bug) With REC.709 YCbCr -> RGB-Video it had no problem, but I found some 'roundnng' digital errors, which was slight different if you were playing a disk or USB, for details see there.

But when you playback 2160p HDR10 movie (Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), which is UltraHD HDR 2160p60....

With settings: 2160p, 12 bit (4:2:2 Enabled) it will playback with 2160p60 HDR 10bit YCbCr 4:2:2.

With settings: 2160p, 12 bit (4:2:2 Disabled) it will playback with 2160p60 HDR 10bit YCbCr 4:2:0.

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p60

Settings: 1080p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 1080p60 8/10/12 bit RGB-Video

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p24

Settings: 1080p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 1080p24 8/10/12 bit RGB

------------------------------------------

Content: Blu-Ray 1080p24

Settings: 2160p, 8/10/12 bit

It will playback with 2160p24 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4

------------------------------------------

For PC, for desktop.....the LG has a very bad banding when you send PC Full Range signal, so it will look better if you compress your PC VGA output to RGB-Video and use LG with RGB-Video, than using RGB Full from PC VGA and LG with TV Black 'High'... When you will use VGA with RGB-Limited output, use patterns with RGB-Full patterns in that case, since the VGA later will compress them to RGB-Video to its output.
Thanks for the info. I definitely let the UB820 do the upscaling, never even bothered to do a comparison as Panasonic's top of the line processing would easily beat the LG's. The bug on the Xbox UHD Blu-Ray playback was fixed at some point last year btw, not that I ever use it for that with the Panasonic I have. However the Xbox still handles gamma or black levels wrong, as Limited RGB/Full RGB don't seem to make any difference there, whereas you can see the difference clearly on the PS4. Both the PS4 Pro and Xbox One S/X can do 4:2:2 10 bit HDR as long as your cable and tv can handle it (PS4 Pro will do it automatically, where the Xbox has a setting for it) since it's right up against the 18gbps limits of the cable.

Shouldn't 2160p RGB 8 bit (SDR gaming) fit into an HDMI 2.0 signal though instead of converting it to YCbCR? It's only when in HDR 10 bit that the bandwidth is too much, or am I wrong?
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Shouldn't 2160p RGB 8 bit (SDR gaming) fit into an HDMI 2.0 signal though instead of converting it to YCbCR? It's only when in HDR 10 bit that the bandwidth is too much, or am I wrong?
Yes, it can fix but you have to compare if it will look better from 10bit YCbCr for example.

What TV model you have?

2160p60 8-bit is 17.82 Gbit, so it can pass using HDMI 2.0b.

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Use of parametric gamma for near back and overall feedbacks

I have redone my 1DLUT generation using the new SW (05.10.03).
As this the standard process, as explained by Ted, I could not get what I want, I have thought to same variances, due to the fact that following his standard method, black is crunched.

I am calibrating a 100 Nits. Manually I first find the luminance level that makes me closest to pannel on switch (52) and then flatten 2.4 Gamma and RGB balance.At 05 IR I increase luminance to the best Near Black I can get and then I scale a little 10 IRE accordingly. Here the luminance settings I have used

and how that reflects in measurements:


When I do Autocal (source rec 709), based on the following measures;

I get the following readings
.
The outcome is that black is definitely cruched (i.e. no way to see 2% grey).

My idea is: why not using a parametric gamma to reproduce in autocal, the same result? I took some time, but at the end I have created an excel tool to generate such a parametric gamma. Here how the previous manual calibration appears after applying such parametric gamma:
.
I only touched three gamma levels, increasing gamma, not touching the darkest one, as already indicating the need to boost some luminance.

Done the usual 1DLUT process generation, using that parametric gamma as source, here the outcome:
.
More luminance at low IRE, now 2% can be seen, anyhow the one I have with manual calibration is more visible.

My general comments:

  1. It looks this approach (parametric gamma) is to some extent working. I cannot get the same level of near black (in manual I can see 18, in autocal I can see 20), but anyhow there is some improvment.
  2. But what is concerning me the most, is what I see at high IREs in all Autocal: this is confirmed playing ramps, where color shifting is clearly visible. Manual calibration is OK on that.
  3. I have played various near black patterns and other ones to check if my somehow extreme luminance settings are creating artifacts: up to now nothing worth to be reported.

My conclusion: honestly I was expecting more from this 1DLUT Autocal. What concerns me the most is the color shift at high IRE. I have done some tests with Calman, based on 04.10.55 and I have got results in line with my manual calibration. It looks like the way my pannel reacts is not expected by LS software, and augmented data don't fix it. I am not a fan of Autocal, for its absenze of back-up, but combining its 1DLUTgeneration with LS 3DLUT generation looks, at least on my pannel, the most effective approach.

My next step will be 3DLUT generation, based on my manual calibration


PS: has anybode else noted that when clicking "enable calibration" in Device Control, Gamut is set to Wide and gamma to 2.2 in all Cinema modes?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, it can fix but you have to compare if it will look better from 10bit YCbCr for example.

What TV model you have?

2160p60 8-bit is 17.82 Gbit, so it can pass using HDMI 2.0b.
The C8
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Near Black Issues from poor factory Quality Control

Some LG OLED's have passed the factory QC (Quality Control) with near black clipping issues and shipped to stores, for these panels it will be required to adjust the Brightness to 55-56 or up to 60-61 (in worst case scenario) from the default 50 value for the near black clipping issue to be resolved.

..........

For expert users, its recommended instead of adjusting normal TV menu White Balance settings, to adjust only the White Balance values of color temperature from inside the TV's Service Menu only. The reason for that is because the normal menu White Balance settings combined with White Balance of Service Menu settings to work as offset from the native panel, and when you have active two controls which are performing the same job, this can make the internal processing algorithm more complex, so its better idea one White Balance menu to be used only to adjust from native panel response and not from both menus (normal TV + service) the same time.

White Balance settings of 'Warm' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Warm 2' preset of Normal TV Menu.

White Balance settings of 'Medium' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Warm 1' preset of Normal TV Menu.

White Balance settings of 'Cool' in Service Menu will adjust the 'Cool' preset of Normal TV Menu.

LG's factory pre-calibrate these service menu White Balance color temperature modes using a 80% Gray pattern with 6500K for 'Warm', 9300K for 'Medium' and 11000K for 'Cool'.
Only a note: Obvious that doing that you are also modifying manual calibration you have already done. Further, doing that for HDR calibration with my previous B6, I have found out that modifications in SM medium are affecting also Warm2. I think it's related to the 5 expert modes temperatures (Cold, Medium, Warm1, 2, 4) out of 3 setting in SM. Just a warning as I have not checked on E8.
I have calibrated them with the help of the B6 Service Manual and setting an expert mode at 100 Nits I could get very accurate WP without touching 2 points High.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Each colorspace (REC.709 for home release or DCI-P3 for commercial cinema release) while they use exact the same xy coordinates to create the D65 White Point, each colorspace is using different mixture of primary colors luminance to archive that, while both have 6504K color temperature.

When you use the RGB Balance Chart of a calibration software and see the three (R/G/B) Channels Bars at exact 100% = 0 dE; doesn't mean that it has been used equal percentage of luminance per each color channel.

The calibration software it's doing the normalizing the luminance ratio per primary color internally according to the selected colorspace target options to provide to the user interface a more calibration friendly chart.



REC.709 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52% and Blue 7.22% luminance per each color channel.

DCI-P3 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using Red 22.9%, Green 69.17% and Blue 7.93% luminance per each color channel.

REC.2020 Colorspace D65 White Point (x: 0.3127 y: 0.329, 6504K) is using 26.27%, Green 67.80% and Blue 5.93% luminance per each color channel.
Isn't this because each colorspace is using different red, green, and blue primaries? For example, Rec.709 is using 21.27% of x: .640 y: .330 red, but Rec.2020 is using 26.27% of x: .708 y: .292 red. These aren't different mixtures of the same red, blue, and green, but different mixtures of different reds, blues, and greens.

I'm also assuming that our OLED sets must use a different mixture than any of these to achieve D65 at x: 0.3127 y: 0.239, 6405K, for two reasons. First, the RGB sub pixel elements do not match the primaries for any of these color spaces, falling slightly short of DCI-P3, and well short of Rec.2020. Second, is the integration of the white sub-pixel.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
Isn't this because each colorspace is using different red, green, and blue primaries? For example, Rec.709 is using 21.27% of x: .640 y: .330 red, but Rec.2020 is using 26.27% of x: .708 y: .292 red. These aren't different mixtures of the same red, blue, and green, but different mixtures of different reds, blues, and greens.
Hi,

Different ratio of primary luminance mixture coming from the fact that primaries are different per colorspace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I'm also assuming that our OLED sets must use a different mixture than any of these to achieve D65 at x: 0.3127 y: 0.239, 6405K, for two reasons. First, the RGB sub pixel elements do not match the primaries for any of these color spaces, falling slightly short of DCI-P3, and well short of Rec.2020. Second, is the integration of the white sub-pixel.
Since each display has different native gamut, what each display is doing to the sub-pixels mixture to de-saturate from native primaries to reach a REC.709 primary colors for example, its unique per each display.

With WRGB OLED after all the processing of the signal, before the panel driving there is a controller (secret sausage) where its converting the 3x 10bit RGB to 4x 10bit RGBW values, but 3 of the 4 pixels are active, LG Electronics talking with more detail and propose also a new 3-matrix meter correction method inside to:

83‐3: Calibration of Colorimeters for RGBW Displays @ SID Symposium Digest of Technical Papers Issue 50 (June 2019).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
Only a note: Obvious that doing that you are also modifying manual calibration you have already done. Further, doing that for HDR calibration with my previous B6, I have found out that modifications in SM medium are affecting also Warm2. I think it's related to the 5 expert modes temperatures (Cold, Medium, Warm1, 2, 4) out of 3 setting in SM. Just a warning as I have not checked on E8.
I have calibrated them with the help of the B6 Service Manual and setting an expert mode at 100 Nits I could get very accurate WP without touching 2 points High.
Hi, if you check with C8 what color modes each affecting the SM changes in SDR and report back, then I will update the info/quide.

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SM WB => Mode Temperature

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, if you check with C8 what color modes each affecting the SM changes in SDR and report back, then I will update the info/quide.
Here outcome of my testing, done on SM, decreasing for each SM the default RGB by 20 points and verifying the result on Dark Room mode with Oled Light set to 25.
The outcome is ('=>' means 'affects')

  • SM Cold => Cold
  • SM Medium => Medium, Warm1
  • SM Warm => Warm1, Warm2, Warm3
See the attachment for details.
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