LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'll fire up LS in a mo to have a look. The really interesting result - in terms of looking at how good FCMM is for colorimeters for WRGB displays - would have been comparing two different colorimeters . If FCMM is a sound method you'd expect the results to be very similar, but I think you'll find some significant differences with your two meters.

One thing to note is that if you do a 3^3 matrix based probe matching, it is pretty pointless verifying it with another set of 3^3 readings, because the correction should pretty much return the values you just measured (give or take any of them being grossly out of line). If you were doing a 3^3 you might want to do a 4^3 verification run, so that the values are interpolated between the control points you have. Of course that means having read both the 4^3 and 3^3 with your spectro and colorimeter...

I've still not picked up an OLED - maybe the coming BF sales will stir me into action. I didn't realise the panels were more unstable in early life - is that a known phenomena then?
I performed it that way just to see how close the exact same points measured out of curiosity, knowing that they should in theory match, as you say, exactly. The next step would be to measure something different, as you point out, but I'd had enough for one evening, and the new panel has seen more patches than content at this point so I decided to give it a rest

The 65C9's are at an excellent price at the moment, and most retailers here will price match throughout the month, so if it does drop next week, you'll get your money back.
It is know that OLED's are really unstable for the first 2-300 hrs of panel use. I have seen some people say they should be broken in with full field colour slides, but I haven't done that on either of mine. I usually just turn off Energy Saving mode (auto power off) and run it for the first week constantly with regular content, only switching off at intervals to allow it to perform its regular compensation cycle. That method has served me well so far.

Leon
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post #512 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I have seen some people say they should be broken in with full field colour slides, but I haven't done that on either of mine. I usually just turn off Energy Saving mode (auto power off) and run it for the first week constantly with regular content, only switching off at intervals to allow it to perform its regular compensation cycle. That method has served me well so far.
They'll be sittling them on cut in half squash balls and drawing round the edge of the screen with sharpie pens next...!
I jest, it could stand to reason I guess, and perhaps doing so stands you in good stead for image retention issues etc... Who knows.
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post #513 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
They'll be sittling them on cut in half squash balls and drawing round the edge of the screen with sharpie pens next...!
I jest, it could stand to reason I guess, and perhaps doing so stands you in good stead for image retention issues etc... Who knows.
It does make sense if you want to "POWER" break it in I guess. Other than that I see no logical reason to do it, but then again I'm absolutely no expert and would never claim to be. I do it the way I do because to me, it just makes sense.
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post #514 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 05:20 PM
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I would like to see some more data regarding FCMM vs. Volumetric probe matching profile. This feature has been available for a couple months now and the only data provided was a spreadsheet from FSI.
I know in theory the volumetric probe matching feature is a better option over FCMM with WRGB OLED, but I have yet to see any data proving this from LS users in this forum (I could have missed it though). I suspect that without high end spectro meters used to create the volumetric profile, the LUT created with that profile would be compromised.
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post #515 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
With that out the way, and because I was already balls deep into the day messing with all this, I let a few hours of regular content play on the panel, and then ran a profile with the same procedure as last week (and as outlined many times by some of the guys behind it - yes you're all absolute wizards!!!). The panel will change and drift significantly over the coming days/weeks I know, as this was done with just 19 hrs on the panel. But it will do until I hit 250-300 hrs, and I was astounded by the results already so wanted to share, if purely to show my utmost gratitude once again to all of the guys behind the procedure, Steve for his software, and Ted for being a complete God with his knowledge and kindness in the way he shares it.

@ConnecTEDDD , if you want the BCS files to look at, let me know and I'll send them to you. If these results are repeatable once the panel settles properly, then I am in for a real treat!!!
Hi, below its the analysis of your 1000 point post-verification results using LightSpace and ColourSpace to evaluate your display performance after the profiling using about ~4500 patches.

While you panel is brand new, with only 19 working hours... looking the Genius dE Analyser (by Anger.miki):



Wait... you have 0.24dE2000 average to the 1000p!

In other words, you have lower dE average from the actual wizards (with 2018 C9's) which are responsible for the instructions/patchset you used:

sat4all (0.25dE2000 average from 1000p)
Anger.miki (0.26dE2000 average from 1000p)
ebr9999 (0.29de2000 from 1000p)
BlackJoker (0.32dE2000 average from 1000p)
Adolfo (0.33dE2000 average from 1000p)

(+ Thanks to Ric for PGenerator & bobof for patch-sorting solutions)

The 1 point with dE2000 number higher from 1dE had 1.08 de2000.

The point is that all LightSpace users with LG OLED's users can get repeatable, stable, perfect end results, when they will follow all that procedure about panel pre-calibration/settings etc, so they all have more time to watch their actual movies than from trying LUT's all day long...hoping to find out what LUT will have less problems or wait for fixed of problems reported from 2018.

Below there ColourSpace visuals of your 1000 color point post-measurements evaluation.

APNG (Animated PNG file) of 2D CIE1931 Chart, the 4 frame loop will display your results filtered to display the dE2000 points with:

All measured points without filtering of dE as frame 1.

Visible only measured points which have 0 - 0.5 dE2000 as frame 2.

Visible only measured points which have 0.5 - 1.0 dE2000 as frame 3.

Visible only measured points which have 1 - 1.5 dE2000 as frame 4.



APNG (Animated PNG file) of 3D CIE1931 Chart, with 4 frame explanation as 2D CIE1931 Chart APNG:



APNG (Animated PNG file) of Normalized RGB Cube, with 4 frame explanation as 2D CIE1931 Chart APNG:



Here is 2 Cube Preview still pictures, after the calculated from LightSpace 3D LUT correction based to your ~4500 measurements:





LightSpace's LUT Preview using your 3D LUT correction as offset to my pattern using Animated PNG:

Frame 1 is the original pattern, frame 2 is your 3D LUT correction applied to the original pattern.....No issues.

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post #516 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 05:41 PM
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Amazing!!! Thanks Ted. I feel like I’ve won the lottery. The panel lottery that is!

These results are purely down to the software, procedure and advice of a fantastic and very knowledgeable, enthusiastic group of guys who have spent many hours chasing perfection, so all credit goes to them.

Now the goal is to monitor my TV at regular intervals to see how much it changes over a certain period as this profile was run whilst the panel was pretty much brand new out of the box.

I’ll also try and squeeze a little time in to actually enjoy the picture I’ve now achieved

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post #517 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
but I would note that Steve (at least I think) was replying to a post questioning the use of the hires mode of the i1pro2 for obtaining a better white point measurement, and your linked post is about the tracking of a profiled i1displaypro vs a reference grade colorimeter.
You are quite right - I incorrectly took the comment as being about the i1d3 driver.

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post #518 of 535 Old 11-25-2019, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
And funny, that you say basically the same yourself...
Yes, I mistook your comment as being about the i1 display pro, not the i1pro.

Yes, Hi-Res mode is possibly a mixed bad in regard to accuracy. It's main benefit is simply being able to see more structure in a spectrum.

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post #519 of 535 Old 11-26-2019, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Yes, I mistook your comment as being about the i1 display pro, not the i1pro.

Yes, Hi-Res mode is possibly a mixed bad in regard to accuracy. It's main benefit is simply being able to see more structure in a spectrum.
Ah - that makes sense - I did wonder.
Appreciate the correction. Thanks.

Steve
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post #520 of 535 Old 11-26-2019, 11:00 AM
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New measurements using the following settings:



Results are a bit better:

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post #521 of 535 Old 11-26-2019, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniJ View Post
New measurements using the following settings:
Hi, something to your TV is still enabled, some processing which don't allow the panel to have native response.

Send all the info, about the patch generator settings, display model, display settings, what and how you have done the pre-calibration, here.

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post #522 of 535 Old 11-27-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Following on from my post last week and the excellent results I obtained with LightSpace, it turns out I actually had an issue with my panel that I hadn't noticed until Friday evening.
After getting fantastic results with the SDR calibration, I wanted to tidy up HDR/DoVi a little. Due to the reports of raised black with HDR AutoCal, I wasn't going to risk it, so I was just going to do a quick 2 point WB adjustment and try and load a MATRIX LUT and the tonemap curves (and the DoVi equivalent) to see what difference (if any) I would notice. It was then I noticed that in both HDR and DoVi, I was only getting a peak output of 615 nits. After WB adjustment this dropped significantly to around 590 nits. Even a factory reset and restoring the SM WB values to the original stock ones only raised peak output to 635 nits. I called my retailer and they kindly agreed to exchange, which I did on Saturday morning. Straight OOTB I decided to measure so as not to waste any further time, and to my surprise, 860 nits in HDR Cinema Home, 820 in HDR Cinema. Quite a difference!!
It looks like a severe warning about what not to do. Maybe an IN-STOP might have fixed that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Good to go, I thought I'd perform a rudimentary and completley unscientific experiment regarding the probe matching procedure, purely for my own benefit, and probably already done thousands of times before now by persons much more qualified than myself. But I thought I would share the results nonetheless.

Equipment used:-
iDisplayPro Rev.B Retail - Purchased April 2019 from Amazon UK
i1 Pro 2 Rev.E OEM - Purchased May 2019 from Light Illusion via Ted's website (thanks guys)
iDisplayPro Rev.B OEM - Purchased November 2019 from Light Illusion via Ted's website (thanks once again guys)

Rudimentary experiment :-
To initially calibrate a 100% white patch to approximately 100 nits at the Service Menu with the i1 Pro 2 Spectro (yes I know it is not reference and better equipment will give better results ), and then take readings with both the Retail and OEM iDisplayPro meters with Generic CMF, LS provided WOLED EDR, and Probe Matching Function within LS. I initially let the TV warm up for an hour and half and in between each set of readings allowed 5 minutes of regular SDR content play to allow readings to be as fair as I could.

Results :-

i1 Pro 2
0.3127/0.3290 - 101.7 nits

iDisplayPro Rev.B Retail
0.3072/0.3238 - 99.4 nits Generic CMF
0.3079/0.3188 - 99.6 nits WOLED EDR
0.3127/0.3289 - 101.4 nits Profiled to i1 Pro 2

iDisplayPro Rev.B OEM
0.3127/0.3297 - 100.1 nits Generic CMF
0.3126/0.3266 - 100.2 nits WOLED EDR
0.3127/0.3290 - 101.9 nits Profiled to i1 Pro 2

I guess none of this tells us anything we didn't already know, I only did it out of curiosity more than anything else. The big thing I noticed is the huge difference in readings of the Retail vs OEM meters, both with no EDR, and the WOLED EDR active. My biggest surprise was just how close the the OEM meter measured to the i1 Pro 2. If nothing else I've reassured myself that using the i1 Pro 2 to Probe Match my iDisplay Pro is the way for me to continue for now.
I have done something similar with a Jeti 1501 and I1D3 (04/2017 rev.B-02) retail: You can see here outcomes. Let's say that checking only the white my retail matches your OEM. Maybe I was only lucky and XRITE provides increased accuracy on OEM.


PS: If I measure a wide Red with my I1D3, I get a negative Z. I have tried with another one I rented (rev. A) and the same was reported me by @Anger.miki . It was discussed here. Can you take the same measurement with your ones? The best is log data and then convert them from Yxy to XYZ.

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Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
The best is log data and then convert them from Yxy to XYZ.
Or, if you don’t have a xyY to XYZ converter, just sum x to y and if the result is > 1, then your Z will be negative

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post #524 of 535 Old 11-27-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
It looks like a severe warning about what not to do. Maybe an IN-STOP might have fixed that.



I have done something similar with a Jeti 1501 and I1D3 (04/2017 rev.B-02) retail: You can see here outcomes. Let's say that checking only the white my retail matches your OEM. Maybe I was only lucky and XRITE provides increased accuracy on OEM.


PS: If I measure a wide Red with my I1D3, I get a negative Z. I have tried with another one I rented (rev. A) and the same was reported me by @Anger.miki . It was discussed here. Can you take the same measurement with your ones? The best is log data and then convert them from Yxy to XYZ.
With regards the previous panel. There was nothing done incorrectly, the panel was purely out of spec and was clearly one that just slipped through the net. It happens I guess. All exect same steps taken with the new panel, absolutely nothing different whatsoever, and no issues at all.

I wont be able to get the meters out again until the weekend due to work and other commitments, but I can take whatever measurements you'd like me to then
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post #525 of 535 Old 11-28-2019, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Following on from my post last week and the excellent results I obtained with LightSpace, it turns out I actually had an issue with my panel that I hadn't noticed until Friday evening.
After getting fantastic results with the SDR calibration, I wanted to tidy up HDR/DoVi a little. Due to the reports of raised black with HDR AutoCal, I wasn't going to risk it, so I was just going to do a quick 2 point WB adjustment and try and load a MATRIX LUT and the tonemap curves (and the DoVi equivalent) to see what difference (if any) I would notice. It was then I noticed that in both HDR and DoVi, I was only getting a peak output of 615 nits. After WB adjustment this dropped significantly to around 590 nits. Even a factory reset and restoring the SM WB values to the original stock ones only raised peak output to 635 nits. I called my retailer and they kindly agreed to exchange, which I did on Saturday morning. Straight OOTB I decided to measure so as not to waste any further time, and to my surprise, 860 nits in HDR Cinema Home, 820 in HDR Cinema. Quite a difference!!
!
I would be very surprised if your new panel after calibration to D65 measured 860 nits with a 10% window but please report back and let us know what you measure.

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post #526 of 535 Old 11-28-2019, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I would be very surprised if your new panel after calibration to D65 measured 860 nits with a 10% window but please report back and let us know what you measure.
Yes I realise this, my point was that with completely stock settings on the old panel I wasn’t even getting 650 nits before calibration to D65, and after calibration to D65 I was getting well below 600 nits.

This new panel measures 860 OOTB with no adjustments to SM WB on HDR Cinema Home, on Cinema slightly lower. I never remeasured after altering the SM WB for SDR calibration and I know that it will already be lower, but in saying that, the WB was fairly close OOTB and only needed minor adjustments at this point. This was all with less than 20 hours on the panel so I expect things to change over the coming weeks, and once the panel has fully settled I guess it should hit around 750 comfortably after calibration.

The entire reason for my post was to say there was obviously an issue with the original panel (I suspected something was up, as did Ted though our private email conversations and the files I’d sent him), but despite this managed to get fantastic results with LightSpace in SDR nonetheless.

I am currently running the panel up to 100 hours and will run another verification to see how it looks then, and then again at 200/300 just out of curiosity. Once I am happy that it’s completely settled in I will then have another look at HDR/DoVi and report back 🙂
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post #527 of 535 Old 11-28-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
Yes I realise this, my point was that with completely stock settings on the old panel I wasn’t even getting 650 nits before calibration to D65, and after calibration to D65 I was getting well below 600 nits.

This new panel measures 860 OOTB with no adjustments to SM WB on HDR Cinema Home, on Cinema slightly lower. I never remeasured after altering the SM WB for SDR calibration and I know that it will already be lower, but in saying that, the WB was fairly close OOTB and only needed minor adjustments at this point. This was all with less than 20 hours on the panel so I expect things to change over the coming weeks, and once the panel has fully settled I guess it should hit around 750 comfortably after calibration.

The entire reason for my post was to say there was obviously an issue with the original panel (I suspected something was up, as did Ted though our private email conversations and the files I’d sent him), but despite this managed to get fantastic results with LightSpace in SDR nonetheless.

I am currently running the panel up to 100 hours and will run another verification to see how it looks then, and then again at 200/300 just out of curiosity. Once I am happy that it’s completely settled in I will then have another look at HDR/DoVi and report back 🙂
I hear what you are saying but I typically see C9's peak luminance after calibration, D65, 10% window vary from 650 -750ish nits. We had the panel lottery discussion about a month ago so I don't want to go down that road again but it looks like you got an "A" panel which is great. Enjoy.

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post #528 of 535 Old 11-28-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
[
I hear what you are saying but I typically see C9's peak luminance after calibration, D65, 10% window vary from 650 -750ish nits. We had the panel lottery discussion about a month ago so I don't want to go down that road again but it looks like you got an "A" panel which is great. Enjoy.
Yes I recall reading the discussion back when it was going on, and it’s not my intention to renew that all over again, but a TV at this price point dropping well below 600 nits after D65 calibration when they average, as you say, at between 650-750 is clearly not acceptable, and point to either an underlying issue or possible future problems down the road. Again, it wasn’t even hitting 650 before calibration to D65.
Anyway, it got exchanged and I ended up with something much better and we’re veering off topic now. The first profile and LUT upload I’ve done at 19 hours is fantastic and I’m interested to see how that develops over the first few hundred hours of the panels life. I will, of course, update once I am happy that the panel has stabilised
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post #529 of 535 Old 11-28-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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LG 2019 B9 Template for DeviceControl Interface is now available for LightSpace users.



The procedure is exact same as for LG 2019 Template, just the 3D LUT size is different as its 17-Point Cube.

You will need LightSpace CMS 10.0.0.2940 (25 April 2019) (or later) to export 17-Point Cube 3D LUT files for DeviceControl Interface.

You can see very detailed instructions about how to request access, how to setup and connect your LG OLED TV using LG Templates for DeviceControl Interface here.

LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's have (33-Point Cube 3D LUT) while the LG B8/B9 has the standard version (17-Point Cube 3D LUT) of this technology.



The number of color points that can be stored is about 7.3 times greater on the LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 (35937) vs B8/B9 (4913).

The LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's advantage of having more color data points in the 3D LUT is that there are then fewer interpolated points between adjacent calibrated points compared to LG B8/B9.

This allows more accurate interpolation, fewer quantization errors, and better output value continuity at the calibrated data points, which yields fewer image artifacts and smoother color gradients in the rendered image.

Additionally, LG C8/E8/G8/W8/C9/E9/G9/W9 OLED TV's users will be able use larger patchsets from the 'standard' 17-Point Cube (4913 color points), like 21-Point Cube (9261 color points) which can provide better final results.
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post #530 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
APNG (Animated PNG file) of Normalized RGB Cube, with 4 frame explanation as 2D CIE1931 Chart APNG:

Hiya Tedd, for feedback to the developer, there is a mistake in those cube images. It's drawn as an optical illusion!
The line from cyan corner to blue corner is wrong, the line from the yellow corner to red is wrong. That makes an impossible cube!

The lines should join from cyan-red, and a different line from yellow-blue.

I can't believe no-one else has noticed this!

Also on the "Xmas tree" 3d graphics it would be nice to see an "outline" which roughly joins the 6 primary and secondary colours, so that we can compare colour volumes of different TVs in 3d.

HTH

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post #531 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 07:26 AM
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The issue is you are 'looking' at the cube incorrectly.

White is always diagonally opposite Black.
Cyan diagonally opposite Red
Magenta diagonally opposite Green
Yellow diagonally opposite Blue

And simply 'connecting' the Target RGBCMY/BW points in the 3D CIE charts is not at all correct.
Any such 'skeleton' outline would need to include the non-linear colour response to luma.
You can see this by enabling the 'Tangent' lines, and seeing where they end.

Steve
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post #532 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Hiya Tedd, for feedback to the developer, there is a mistake in those cube images. It's drawn as an optical illusion!
The line from cyan corner to blue corner is wrong, the line from the yellow corner to red is wrong. That makes an impossible cube!

The lines should join from cyan-red, and a different line from yellow-blue.

I can't believe no-one else has noticed this!
There no mistake and you haven't found anything useful.

Just I have rotated differently the cube, which is perfectly represent RGB Cube space.

All dots have correct positions.

There no exist line which connect cyan with red or yellow-blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Also on the "Xmas tree" 3d graphics it would be nice to see an "outline" which roughly joins the 6 primary and secondary colours, so that we can compare colour volumes of different TVs in 3d.
About color volume, you can set that your reference is REC2020 and 1000 nits and then look 2 profiles, the display with longer tangent lines will have smaller color volume.

ColourSpace has setting to calculate dE and generated 3D/2D graphs based to the peak output nits number you will set.

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post #533 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 09:30 AM
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The issue is you are 'looking' at the cube incorrectly.

White is always diagonally opposite Black.
Cyan diagonally opposite Red
Magenta diagonally opposite Green
Yellow diagonally opposite Blue
Thank-you Steve for your polite, and courteous, reply. It took me several minutes of staring, but now I can finally see it. Hooray.

The "front" face towards us is the cyan-blue-black-green square, and the "back" face farthest away is the white-magenta-red-yellow square. Got it. I had been seeing yellow as the closest corner to the viewer, and cyan at the back/bottom left. Don't know what could be done to make it easier to see. Perhaps in the live application with it moving, there are enough visual clues that your brain doesn't see it inside out like mine.

Quote:
And simply 'connecting' the Target RGBCMY/BW points in the 3D CIE charts is not at all correct.
Any such 'skeleton' outline would need to include the non-linear colour response to luma.
You can see this by enabling the 'Tangent' lines, and seeing where they end.
Fair enough, it was just a suggestion

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post #534 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 09:35 AM
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Indeed - when you actually have ColourSpace, and are working with the cube display, that fact you can rotate it make it easy to see the '3-dimensional' aspect of the cube.
Looking at a flat/static screen grab can be a bit weird, if the cube alignment is just slightly 'strange'.

Steve
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post #535 of 535 Old 11-29-2019, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
The "front" face towards us is the cyan-blue-black-green square, and the "back" face farthest away is the white-magenta-red-yellow square. Got it. I had been seeing yellow as the closest corner to the viewer, and cyan at the back/bottom left. Don't know what could be done to make it easier to see. Perhaps in the live application with it moving, there are enough visual clues that your brain doesn't see it inside out like mine.
You can see some other views of Normalized RGB Cube:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58469344
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58523134
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58550938
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58563662
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58663682
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58690990
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58777532
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58830862
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58856780

There is a video also, with not so good resolution:

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