LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 04:11 AM
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Ok, just for fun...
Here is something Ive been thinking.

It appears that as I am still fairly new to the calibration genre, its probably going to be a while before I am ready to tackle doing HDR. But I do feel pretty good now about my understanding of SDR, thanks to ppl like Ted, Steve and others.

We read a lpt of discussion about the finer points of getting as many errors out of our displays as possible and Im pretty happy with my reaults so far.

But what if I want to take one of my tv settings and just play?

I had an idea the other day for an experiment. Im sure that if there is a way to do it, it can be done only in LS and maybe I cant do it with the version of LS that I own which is LS HTL.

The idea is this. I want to create a mode that takes standard SDR Rec.709 content and remaps it so that colors that are in the saturation range of, say, 90-100% are pushed out of the rec709 gamut and into P3 to create an artificial HDR "look". But where image data below the 90% saturation level are still calibrated normally. I would want this upper 90-100% sat range to ramp up i5n a non-linear way so that for example:
, 90=90, 91=92, 92=95...100=110% saturation. This mode could be fun to use for watching animations or whatever.

So, Ted, Steve...any way that this weird kind of space could be created? Or is this going to be way over my head?
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post #32 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 10:55 AM
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I think the closest you can come is to manually set your TV's gamut to its widest (if it's larger than Rec.709) and watch programming that way. Without some way to create, manipulate, and hold a 3D LUT, I don't believe what you want can be done.

...Royce...

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post #33 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post
Ok, just for fun...
Here is something Ive been thinking.

It appears that as I am still fairly new to the calibration genre, its probably going to be a while before I am ready to tackle doing HDR. But I do feel pretty good now about my understanding of SDR, thanks to ppl like Ted, Steve and others.

We read a lpt of discussion about the finer points of getting as many errors out of our displays as possible and Im pretty happy with my reaults so far.

But what if I want to take one of my tv settings and just play?

I had an idea the other day for an experiment. Im sure that if there is a way to do it, it can be done only in LS and maybe I cant do it with the version of LS that I own which is LS HTL.

The idea is this. I want to create a mode that takes standard SDR Rec.709 content and remaps it so that colors that are in the saturation range of, say, 90-100% are pushed out of the rec709 gamut and into P3 to create an artificial HDR "look". But where image data below the 90% saturation level are still calibrated normally. I would want this upper 90-100% sat range to ramp up i5n a non-linear way so that for example:
, 90=90, 91=92, 92=95...100=110% saturation. This mode could be fun to use for watching animations or whatever.

So, Ted, Steve...any way that this weird kind of space could be created? Or is this going to be way over my head?
You can create any custom color space you want with LS, just open convert color space, put the right coordinates and save your custom color space. A different goal is to obtain a likely HDR effect.

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post #34 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
You can create any custom color space you want with LS, just open convert color space, put the right coordinates and save your custom color space. A different goal is to obtain a likely HDR effect.
But not a targeted "stretching" of values as he's describing. One is still limited to what's available in the display's native gamut, in any case. And Blue in particular would likely not work quite the way he wants. Many displays seem to have similar Blue coordinates, though Red and Green vary quite a bit. So he could likely push well outside the 709 gamut for Red and Green, but not so much for Blue.

...Royce...

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post #35 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
You can create any custom color space you want with LS, just open convert color space, put the right coordinates and save your custom color space. A different goal is to obtain a likely HDR effect.
But not a targeted "stretching" of values as he's describing. One is still limited to what's available in the display's native gamut, in any case. And Blue in particular would likely not work quite the way he wants. Many displays seem to have similar Blue coordinates, though Red and Green vary quite a bit. So he could likely push well outside the 709 gamut for Red and Green, but not so much for Blue.
Right, and I had thought about that as well. I think it would be a matter of relaxing the saturation corrections above 90% by some power formula rather than adding because I that way, at 100%, you could just let the panel go native I guess, since we would not be adding anything thats not already present. So in essense, telling LS NOT to correct saturation past a certain level. Difficult at best.

It was just a crazy idea but I bet with LS it could be done!

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post #36 of 262 Old 01-23-2019, 09:28 PM
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Off course Royce, you are right. My post was just indicating the procedure. Rob, I’m following you in this “crazy” thing, but just for the love of break the boundaries. With Convert color space we have defined the Rob.P709 color space limits. To create that sort of tone mapping you want, I guess you have to manually correct the correction file so you modify that point with another point of the same color saturation scale. I don’t really know if it’s possible, but I’m already seeing the water in my glass moving to the rhythm of Ted’s heavy steps.
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post #37 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I don’t really know if it’s possible, but I’m already seeing the water in my glass moving to the rhythm of Ted’s heavy steps.
Why, thank you kind sir. Yes, it IS perhaps a bit crazy but we should be allowed a crazy color space or two right? I also thought I heard a loud noise...Ted? I think he is either coming this way or maybe fell over dead.
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post #38 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post
It was just a crazy idea but I bet with LS it could be done!
Indeed, it can.
You can use the LUT Image to merge different LUTs, at different levels, using something like Photoshop.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/lut_image.html

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post #39 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Off course Royce, you are right. My post was just indicating the procedure. Rob, I’m following you in this “crazy” thing, but just for the love of break the boundaries. With Convert color space we have defined the Rob.P709 color space limits. To create that sort of tone mapping you want, I guess you have to manually correct the correction file so you modify that point with another point of the same color saturation scale. I don’t really know if it’s possible, but I’m already seeing the water in my glass moving to the rhythm of Ted’s heavy steps.
Miki, I see that Steve has beaten me to it with his reply. I did not mention 3D LUTs in the previous post you quoted because I don't know if Rob is using LUTs or if he's calibrating manually, but I estimate he's manual-only at this point.

...Royce...

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post #40 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 06:45 AM
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I think he is using 3D LUT because I’ve read his posts about his success on uploading a LS LUT on his C8. So those roaring steps were Steve’s steps not Ted’s 😄
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post #41 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post
It was just a crazy idea but I bet with LS it could be done!
Indeed, it can.
You can use the LUT Image to merge different LUTs, at different levels, using something like Photoshop.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/lut_image.html

Steve
Steve, something I’d like to do but I’m too lazy to RTFM is to merge different luminance part of two bcs made with two different tristimulus (both profiled with the same spectro) on the same panel. Let me explain myself better: I’d like to use a i1D3 (profiled on my i1Pro2) to read points within 5%-100% luminance range and then use Discus (also profiled with the same spectro) to read points within 0-5% luminance range. Those two measurements should be then merged in one bcs as it is a single xx^3 cube measurement made using one probe. Is it possible? Thanks.

Miki

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post #42 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Steve, something I’d like to do but I’m too lazy to RTFM is to merge different luminance part of two bcs made with two different tristimulus (both profiled with the same spectro) on the same panel. Let me explain myself better: I’d like to use a i1D3 (profiled on my i1Pro2) to read points within 5%-100% luminance range and then use Discus (also profiled with the same spectro) to read points within 0-5% luminance range. Those two measurements should be then merged in one bcs as it is a single xx^3 cube measurement made using one probe. Is it possible? Thanks.

Miki
Hi Miki,
One way would be to use Excel, or similar, to merge the selected data into a third file.
All .bcs files are just XLM, so easily human readable.

An alternative, is again to use the LUT Image, and in Photoshop lay one image over the other, and then key out the different range from one LUT to the other.

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post #43 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Miki, I see that Steve has beaten me to it with his reply. I did not mention 3D LUTs in the previous post you quoted because I don't know if Rob is using LUTs or if he's calibrating manually, but I estimate he's manual-only at this point.
Rob initially bought CalMAN to use with his C8 and after some issue he had with CalMAN: https://liftgammagain.com/forum/inde...9/#post-119788

...he had to bought additionally LightSpace and, he skipped performing 1D LUT using CalMAN, he just used normal OSD menu and performed 100% White calibration only by using RGB-High controls of his LG...later he performed 3D LUT via LightSpace and used CalMAN only to upload the 3D LUT... he used also CalMAN to only verify LightSpace 3D LUT results:



...these were his results of his first calibration with LightSpace posted, he posted there also.

Rob posted a lot of useful instructions for other LightSpace users here.

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post #44 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 09:49 AM
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Thanks, Ted.

...Royce...

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post #45 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post
Ok, just for fun...
Here is something Ive been thinking.

It appears that as I am still fairly new to the calibration genre, its probably going to be a while before I am ready to tackle doing HDR. But I do feel pretty good now about my understanding of SDR, thanks to ppl like Ted, Steve and others.

We read a lpt of discussion about the finer points of getting as many errors out of our displays as possible and Im pretty happy with my reaults so far.

But what if I want to take one of my tv settings and just play?

I had an idea the other day for an experiment. Im sure that if there is a way to do it, it can be done only in LS and maybe I cant do it with the version of LS that I own which is LS HTL.

The idea is this. I want to create a mode that takes standard SDR Rec.709 content and remaps it so that colors that are in the saturation range of, say, 90-100% are pushed out of the rec709 gamut and into P3 to create an artificial HDR "look". But where image data below the 90% saturation level are still calibrated normally. I would want this upper 90-100% sat range to ramp up i5n a non-linear way so that for example:
, 90=90, 91=92, 92=95...100=110% saturation. This mode could be fun to use for watching animations or whatever.

So, Ted, Steve...any way that this weird kind of space could be created? Or is this going to be way over my head?
Its not worth to test that idea, since the content you will watch is mastered for REC.709, creating a 'creative' artificial over-saturation look, it will provide very un-natural picture and issues since the digital steps are very few to map to that expansion of colors thru 90-100%.

Something you can do 'for fun' is to generate ' a creative look LUT to fix a mastering of a movie for example... if you import as reference 4 stills (of different color scenes of that movie):



and then use Photoshop to change colors, and at the end to import back to LightSpace etc. (more details there)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #46 of 262 Old 01-24-2019, 06:54 PM
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That's wonderful! I need to purchase a new computer, so I now have a plan... with this photoshop technique I can tell my wife to let me buy some new gear or I will force her to watch all her favorite shows in Sepiatone! Brilliant!
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post #47 of 262 Old 01-25-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Its not worth to test that idea, since the content you will watch is mastered for REC.709, creating a 'creative' artificial over-saturation look, it will provide very un-natural picture and issues since the digital steps are very few to map to that expansion of colors thru 90-100%.

Something you can do 'for fun' is to generate ' a creative look LUT to fix a mastering of a movie for example... if you import as reference 4 stills (of different color scenes of that movie):



and then use Photoshop to change colors, and at the end to import back to LightSpace etc. (more details there)
Thanks Ted. You are probably right and Im not even sure if PS even has a saturation channel to select saturation only. If it were possible, it could be scaled to start over-saturation at about the 80%, but ideally would work better if you could just somehow tell LS not to apply sat correction to those areas instead (on a gradual curve of course). The excercise goes far to show just how powerful and useful LS truly is.

When I first test CM's autocal, I was struck by how primitive and horrible it worked, watching the way it would make seemingly random attempts at corrections to the 1D points and then throwing away some of the best ones for worse choices! I thought maybe it was also looking at adjacent points or something behind the scenes but no, it appears not. Its just plain mediocre and bad programming. I spent 25 yrs working as a s/w engineer so I recognize bad hacking when I see it.

Then came LS and I say finally, here is someone who truly knows the math! So, while CM is bouncing their balls randomly around hoping to get lucky, Steve is doing things the right way and I can appreciate the shear genious behind his work. It urks me to no end that LG and other manufacturers are at the very least not giving him priority support to allow him direct LUT access! Instead, we are forced to use CM for certain tasks although I will give them credit for some nice looking displays.
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post #48 of 262 Old 01-25-2019, 03:06 PM
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Btw, can anyone please lead me to a good place to get some calibration TIFFs...ramps, etc?
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post #49 of 262 Old 01-25-2019, 11:40 PM
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There are some here,go to down load selection/calibration images

https://www.lightillusion.com/downloads.html

Calman Enthusiast,Lightspace HTP,Klein K-10A,I1pro2,Murideo 6G.
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post #50 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 01:19 AM
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Btw, can anyone please lead me to a good place to get some calibration TIFFs...ramps, etc?
Ask Ted. I’m sure he will flood you. 🙂

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post #51 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 03:54 AM
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You know what? Here is a part of my CM story that not even Ted knows. Actually, I had bought a used LG C6 in June of 18 and purchased CM Home to tune it. But I had the bad luck of getting a lemon tv! It had the worst possible red burn-in I have ever seen! It got worse and worse over the next few months so I sold it.

Knowing that CalMAN had this wonderful new autocal feature that would work with the 2018 models, I took a huge chance and bought my E8. In retrospect, Im happy I did. But had it not been for CM, I was planning on staying away from LG. Plus the fact that I already knew from experience just how thermally finicky my C8 was...OLEDs in gen I supposed. But I had gotten fairly used to the fussy beast and you truly cant beat the CN ratios, etc.

With my new one, I find myself babying the hell out of it. Haha, I make my wife watch her news channel in dark room mode with logo suppression on no matter what. The only high gain material I put on are movies, esp in DV.

So then I find out afterwards just how bad the autocal was (see above) and to make matters worse, I had to do a factory reset to my LG as punishment for using autocal bcuz I got locked out of the WP controls every time!!! Wanna here me swear?

F U AutoTune!!!

Ted later told me the story behind CM s/w and appears they lost their senior programmer, then hired some hack who wrote the autocal crap. CalMan is pretty good for manually tweaking the greyscale and for testing. But thats it. I wish I still had my old color charts I did in CM before I found LS...all my saturation profiles were bent and crooked, way off target...never mind!

Anyway Ted, now you know the whole story!

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post #52 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 06:36 AM
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More or less that is the story of every enthusiast who is a LS user. Mine is a chronologically different story because I first bought CM for the autocal 3D LUT function on 2018 LG but never bought one of those TV because of the poor results even on my Kuro with eecolor. So I bought LS and never looked back. But I’d really like for CM a better future because I don’t like to see my money burning. 😉

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post #53 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 07:46 AM
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Even though I’m now a LS user (newbie to LS) primarily because of the issues with AuoCal’s Cube Tedd identified, I have to tell my story. A couple of years ago I first calibrated my 55” Kuro using CM Home, C6, mobile Forge, and eeColor box. Results were terrible using various independent methods of testing the results including watching red-faces in the video. I was using CM’s built-in plasma meter profile. Nothing I could do seemed to correct it. Finally broke down and bought an i1 Pro 2 to calibrated the C6 to my display. That changed everything and the results were amazing. My point is, knowing now CM’s correction cube is not perfect as Tedd has shown, cannot wait to see what a perfect cube will do and LS is the tool for that.


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post #54 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
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So then I find out afterwards just how bad the autocal was (see above) and to make matters worse, I had to do a factory reset to my LG as punishment for using autocal bcuz I got locked out of the WP controls every time!!! Wanna here me swear?

F U AutoTune!!!

Ted later told me the story behind CM s/w and appears they lost their senior programmer, then hired some hack who wrote the autocal crap. CalMan is pretty good for manually tweaking the greyscale and for testing. But thats it. I wish I still had my old color charts I did in CM before I found LS...all my saturation profiles were bent and crooked, way off target...never mind!

Anyway Ted, now you know the whole story!


This thread is really something else. Sir you are greatly misinformed.

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post #55 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 12:39 PM
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Rob probably misunderstood the story Ted told him.

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #56 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post

So then I find out afterwards just how bad the autocal was (see above) and to make matters worse, I had to do a factory reset to my LG as punishment for using autocal bcuz I got locked out of the WP controls every time!!! Wanna here me swear?

F U AutoTune!!!

Ted later told me the story behind CM s/w and appears they lost their senior programmer, then hired some hack who wrote the autocal crap. CalMan is pretty good for manually tweaking the greyscale and for testing. But thats it. I wish I still had my old color charts I did in CM before I found LS...all my saturation profiles were bent and crooked, way off target...never mind!

Anyway Ted, now you know the whole story!


This thread is really something else. Sir you are greatly misinformed.
Apparently misunderstood, sorry if so. Also, I use the term hack as it was used back in the dat to mean bad programming skills, which is how it seemed. When I watch autocal bouncing a 1D point around going from bad to better to bad then sticking on bad, it tells me someone may not have very great programming skills.
Those kind of things affect peoples decicions on what tvs and/or equipment to buy such as myself. Spending a grand or two isnt something lightly let alone countless hours spent in frustration. So yes, I was upset and rightfully so.

I bow out.
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post #57 of 262 Old 01-26-2019, 11:42 PM
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Rob, when I had, more or less, your feelings about CM I started this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2977176-calman-room-place-bring-better.html
You could add your experience with CM and list what you think is wrong/good and what should be improved, if you want.

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #58 of 262 Old 01-27-2019, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I'm interested in following your process as I'm new to Lightspace (HTP license). Did you use LS software to store the display/meter profile in the Klein while using the Murideo as the PG? As far as I know, the Klein software does not recognize either the iPro 2 or the Murideo?
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Thanks. Will Chromasurf upload to the Klein the resultant meter profile created in LS? I'm using LS to create a 3D LUT for the eecolor box. The Klien will be profiled using LS, iPro 2 and a six-g (that's the plan going in anyway).
If you want to save inside to Klein's memory slots directly, only by using ChromaSurf is possible, but you can use LightSpace to control the i1PRO2 / Murideo; Klein will controlled by ChromaSurf only.

Start LightSpace and connect i1PRO2 and Murideo, set meter/patch settings then go to calibration interface, set RGB sliders to 255.255.255 and wait.

Open ChromaSurf, connect Klein, go to create a new table, select manual reference and manual generator:


Start my measuring with Reference...it will prompt you to enter xyY for White initially...... go to LightSpace and tick the patch window (green box)...so this will pop-up the patch window and your Murideo will generate 255.255.255 aka 100% White.

Then click to measure and then stop measurement.....see the xyY numbers (red box) and page them to ChromaPure (while you do this...you can set sliders to 0.0.0 to generate a black patch...while you will copy-paste the numbers).

Then do the same for Red (255.0.0), Green (0.255.0) and Blue (0.0.255).



Later you will measure with Klein from ChromaSurf...while you will use again LightSpace with Murideo to generate the patterns.
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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #59 of 262 Old 01-27-2019, 02:23 PM
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Hi Ted.

I think you need two laptop's to perform a meter profile using Chromasurf and Lightspace.
Both LightSpace and Chromasurf will want the K10 to be using their software only.
So of you use one PC for both apps you will need to connect and disconnect the K10 from the software you want to use, but that can cause issues with the software/PC.

I have been using LS sliders for years to also set my ruffed in grayscale/white point. All so using QP grayscale to check how my adjustments are working, but beware you may have to restart LS if you run QP a few times.

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Last edited by sillysally; 01-27-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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post #60 of 262 Old 01-27-2019, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Hi Ted.

I think you need two laptop's to perform a meter profile using Chromasurf and Lightspace.
Both LightSpace and Chromasurf will want the K10 to be using their software only.
So of you use one PC for both apps you will need to connect and disconnect the K10 from the software you want to use, but that can cause issues with the software/PC.
Hi SS,

You will not tick K-10A from inside LightSpace and Discovarable Probe list, so LightSpace will never search for K-10A.

All will work as I posted, no issue, with a single notebook.

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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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