LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #811 of 837 Old 02-04-2020, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I have given a look to your dE2000 >=1

Not so many, however. I don't think there is an integration issue, as I can see Y going from 5 to 18 Nits. It looks more a littel chromatiticity issue in two well different areas. You may trying remesuring them, to check if there is anything of strange, but, anyway I would not be concerned at all and I would repeat the measurements with different parameter, using this reading as reference.
Thanks!
Just learned more. That custom filter helps a lot. That’s the nice thing about a mature product, there’s all the needed functionality - just have to find it.
/Miksu2
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post #812 of 837 Old 02-05-2020, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberator72 View Post
I don't know about the 2018 LG's, but I did see D-Nice say on one of the calibration threads here that he had tried to edit the file with an alternate white point in the 2019 DV Config file without success. It still stayed locked to D65.

EDIT:

I found the post, and he says it stays locked to D65 on both 2018/2019 models. See the conversation HERE

I don't kow much about the use of DVI file in the DV sw - It appears like a correction input, so it shoudl be be set with coordinates complementary to whished WP - but anyhow, using LS, an alternative way to set a different whitepoint, valid also for HDR, might be be using SM, i.e. by setting one of the color temperatures to the wished WP, rather than D65.

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post #813 of 837 Old 02-05-2020, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I don't kow much about the use of DVI file in the DV sw - It appears like a correction input, so it shoudl be be set with coordinates complementary to whished WP - but anyhow, using LS, an alternative way to set a different whitepoint, valid also for HDR, might be be using SM, i.e. by setting one of the color temperatures to the wished WP, rather than D65.
For HDR & DoVi on my C9, I have personally just RESET 1D LUT only and then used Greyscale Large -> 1D LUT -> Greyscale Large -> Augment Data -> 1D LUT. I have then left the factory HDR Matrix LUT, and the Factory DoVi Config in place, and just uploaded HDR peak output for HDR modes to allow for better tone mapping.

I guess in theory this should allow for an alternate white point in Dolby Vision as D-Nice has said it only locks to D65 once the new Config File is uploaded to the TV.

The reason I have left the factory Matrix/DoVi configurations is because Ted has stated before that the factory versions do an as good, if not better job than anything that is generated and uploaded to the TV.

I will try an alternate white point for Dolby Vision over the next couple days and see if this method does indeed stick.

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post #814 of 837 Old 02-08-2020, 12:41 PM
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Sorry for the wall of text! Hopefully it's not too off topic as it's about 3D LUT with LightSpace, only considering the low cost meter for it. The question is about the accuracy of i1 Display pro (retail) on LG C8 OLED and how to improve it.

I've been measuring how different values for integration time affect the accuracy of my i1d3 to find a sweet spot for both speed and accuracy. The ground work is pretty well laid out as people more knowledgeable than me have tested the settings, I was just verifying my meter being "up to speed" with faster setting @Anger.miki used successfully .

No one will be surprised to hear that I found that on OLED TV:
- High integration times cause high luminance patches to measure brighter and repeated reads increase in brightness.
- Low integration times have trouble reading low luminance patches.
Sounds like finding the lowest integration time to come up with reliable readings high up and let Intelligent integration fix the low end...

The real problem lies in the two bonus errors types between high and low luminance trouble zones:
1) Random wrong reading (1 out of 4), thats changes are bigger and found in lower luminance range with lower integration time.
2) 2 and 2 error. While taking 4 readings sweep, first 2 measurements give the same result and the last two give a same result - just not the same result the first two gave.

Hopefully this is just a user error.
- i1 Display Pro (retail) bought 12/2019. 10cm from panel with tripod, light shield made out of black cardboard with a extra black shroud (alkon muovipussi).
- PGenerator (rpi2) @24Hz, RGB full.
- LG C8 with latest firmware, all extra processing off, all dimmers disabled (that can be), including TPC from service menu, expert dark picture mode (medium white balance), black level low.
- LightSpace (latest), integration time tested between 0.25-6s, Extra Delay 0.5, Patch scale 16-255 (235 for verify), Intelligent integration off while testing, 1-5 while profiling/verifying, stabilization 0.35. 1D LUT creation skipped, 2p high from service menu instead.

The no1 error is Y < 0.03 with integration time of 0.25 and Y < 0.008 with [email protected] The errors are typically clustered together. The error is found between 3.5 and 13 nits readings.
No2 error is usually higher up in nits and is typically with higher integration time.

So if it isn't a user error, there are a few solutions I could find:
1) Getting LightSpace to support multiple integration times, based on estimated Y. Lower integration time high up and increasing to low nits. (not likely to happen)
2) Set integration time to low enough and set Intelligent integration really high (13 nits).
3) FrankenProfile the display with low integration time, but intelligent integration off. Profile with higher integration time (0.8) after that only the patches under 13 nits (.csv shuffled with @bobof script). Export both and manually replace low nits readings from later profile. Import the fixed file and make a LUT out of it.

Like I said, no1 is not likely to happen if there isn't a real need for it.
No2 sounded a easy to test, but limit is 5nits (probably easy to change if it would be useful). With a quick test (profile & verify with integration time @0.35, intelligent integration @5) showed most of the largest errors (de2000) to be below 5 nits... To make things difficult, I had to profile before sunset (and had just wasted a couple of evenings on wild goose chase due to taking measurements in same order every night at the same time (sunset)). If anyone is interested, I have beautifully measured sunsets on file ;D

At first I thought I had just measured sunset/sunrise with those errors, but that wasn't the case. Also higher integration times helps with it...

Frankenprofile (fast [email protected], [email protected] and slow [email protected], [email protected] (just patches below 13 nits, sorted) with verification with [email protected] should (if it works) show if there is a difference. No difference shows that it is a user error or a faulty meter. Integration time of 0.75 with verification at same settings is pretty good, thanks ebr9999 for checking the verification (look my post on the previous page), so I can live with profiling with [email protected] and [email protected], but then I would never consider getting this meter profiled against reference.

Hopefully the gurus can tell from memory if type1 or type2 errors are not showing up on their test runs "back in the day".

Now that the frankenprofile was mentioned, can it work? Would those of us with crushed blacks version of the panel benefit running the low end with CRT mode instead of AIO and with really conservative settings - a 3 tier frankenprofile? Was planning on testing things myself and posting how it looked, but got sidetracked with these bonus errors - if meter is not reliable, what good are it's measurements.
/Miksu2

Last edited by Miksu2; 02-08-2020 at 01:16 PM. Reason: 1D LUT skipped per recommendation detail.
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post #815 of 837 Old 02-08-2020, 01:13 PM
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I’m sorry, what are the reference measures that make you define what is wrong and what is good in your i1D3 measures?

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post #816 of 837 Old 02-08-2020, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I’m sorry, what are the reference measures that make you define what is wrong and what is good in your i1D3 measures?
No reference, just looking results from 4-5 repeated results for the same patch. Repeatability is more important than result vs reference as high variability negates reference.

Edit: Your answer already confirms that you didn’t see the same problem. User error or bad meter is the likely answer.
/Miksu2

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post #817 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 01:22 AM
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More likely display drift, rather than probe issues or user error.
WOLEDS are inherently unstable.

Steve
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post #818 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 01:33 AM
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That’s why I asked if he had reference measures from a trustable colorimeter to compare with. My settings (it @0,25 and ii @2) were compared to what a K10A read, one test with both meter profiled against a Jeti 1501 and another test with i1D3 profiles against the K10A.

Both tests said that i1D3 read within NIST tolerance with those settings.
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post #819 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 02:01 AM
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Here are the files profile & verify:
08022020 was with it0.35, ii5, s0.1 (both profile & verify)

09022020 was with it0.8, ii1, s0.35 (both profile & verify)
All other settings were the same (all details in yesterdays post). Dolby whitepoint for LG C8: x=0.308 y=0.313
/Miksu2
Attached Files
File Type: zip i08vsi035.zip (765.9 KB, 4 views)

LG C8, LightSpace, i1 Display pro, PGenerator, Dolby labs whitepoint for lg OLEDs x=0.308 y=0.313
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post #820 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 02:31 AM
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Isn’t Dolby WP for Sony BVM RGB OLED?

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post #821 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Isn’t Dolby WP for Sony BVM RGB OLED?
https://displaycalibrations.com/lg_2...ightspace.html
"...LG Electronics with Dolby Laboratories have published an article during SID's Display Week 2018, its available inside to SID Symposium Digest of Technical Papers - Volume 49, Issue 1 (May 2018) issue.
For that study, 'Correcting Metameric Failure of Wide Color Gamut Displays', using 13 reliable observers they performed a visual color matching method trying to match a Reference Grade-1 CRT with the LG OLED and they found that to perceptual match the Reference White of CRT, a custom White Point with x: 0.308 y: 0.313 coordinates has to be used for the LG OLED..."

But because it depends observer to observer it would be interesting also discuss about that.
I tried: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post59175410
but not any answers.
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post #822 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Isn’t Dolby WP for Sony BVM RGB OLED?

This is one of the custom whitepoints for LG OLED. The first search got me this:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post58434976
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post #823 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

[/I]But because it depends observer to observer it would be interesting also discuss about that.
I tried: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post59175410
but not any answers.
I've used it, and I love it.

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post #824 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I've used it, and I love it.
Me too
But that link is to post where I ask if my laptop is okay to use for Perceptual Colour Matching.
I understand this theme could be little frustrating because you can´t adjust that just by meter readings, it depends how your eyes see colours and only after that you get correct offset for you.
Maby it´s better keep discussion at thread for that topic.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-lg-oleds.html
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post #825 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Make73 View Post
Me too
But that link is to post where I ask if my laptop is okay to use for Perceptual Colour Matching.
I understand this theme could be little frustrating because you can´t adjust that just by meter readings, it depends how your eyes see colours and only after that you get correct offset for you.
Maby it´s better keep discussion at thread for that topic.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-lg-oleds.html
We do perceptual matching at the TV Shootout every year and it's the hardest part of the job because everyone sees color slightly differently.
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post #826 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 02:30 PM
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Hi.

I made a display characterization a 17 cube using i1 display 3 profiled with i1 pro 2 and the settings recommended.

Also, I made a 1000 point verification, the quality of the image is very good. However , I think the results could better and the Red ICtCp is too high.

I link the report of the calibration and the file with the 1000 point verification.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15W...3miEClSpcikAX5

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12I...4rBd86iWk06yMk

I'll appreciate all the ideas and help.

Thanks in advance.
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post #827 of 837 Old 02-09-2020, 03:51 PM
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Have some readings of 76,0,0 ....It is your highest dICtCp, It appears as it is a rec2020 red. Have a reaidng also with CMF and no correction.



PS: what is your display?

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post #828 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
More likely display drift, rather than probe issues or user error.
WOLEDS are inherently unstable.

Steve
Hopefully I have now understood the situation correctly. Real question at the bottom, wall of text to just make sure the basics are correct.

The reason for all these questions is just to learn more and to make sure I can get my meter (i1D3) to get the most stable and repeatable results from my OLED TV (LG C8). This is also due to having learned that getting my meter profiled by a professional would cost 400€ (about 200% of the price of the meter) + travel charges from the neighboring city. If my meter (individual) isn't good for profiling accurately or my TV (individual) is too diffucult to tame - no point in paying 400€+. Once again I have to say: The calibration results that I already get with LighSpace look amazing. This is all just about taking a next step and getting even better results with a profiling against a reference meter - or not. And if I'm not on a wild goose chase, someone else might benefit from me hitting my head against a wall. If nothing more, a knowledge that it doesn't work or it has been tested already and the results weren't good.

The fast integration time is less accurate with dark patches, but that can be defeated with intelligent integration.
The OLED will always be instable at high nits patches, slower integration time just shows the problem better.
OLED is not only instable at high nits, having produced variable delays on patches below 5 nits using intelligent integration @5 (with integration time of 0.35), the drift increased. Measurements with integration time of 0.8 and intelligent integration @1 thus showed more stable results. And as I'm causing bigger drift the problem can be found anywhere as the next patch reading can be anywhere and will have bigger drift to handle. Long dark patch cooling the panel (up to 20s below 5 nits) is clearly not a good idea.

So managing drift is the key to accurate profiling on OLED.

This brings me back to the idea of "frankenprofile". If the display profiling would be run without intelligent integration, wouldn't that produce the most stable drift handling on OLEDs? Getting only the very low nits readings retaken separately with intelligent integration enabled (or just very long integration time?) and manually replacing those values to exported .bcs -> import -> convert colorspace. That would only require testing what integration time and stabilization time combination (with extra delay of 0.5) would produce the best drift handling results. (Two good candidates to start with: [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected], [email protected])

I'm eager to test that myself, just don't know when I'll have the opportunity. I know that I can filter the results from latest profiling (L <= 1) to get low end readings, but is there a way to copy or export those to create a .csv? With increasing luminance filter (=lower integration time), the number of patches would increase and the possibility of errors when manually typing those would increase...
/Miksu2

PS. Before posting, I got an afterthought:
Am I just overcomplicating things? Is there a minimum for intelligent integration? How big of an error can you see in low nits? Setting intelligent integration to ~0.1 would leave just a handful of patches for slow readings. Here's the variation between 4 consecutive readings per patch with [email protected]:

R=G=B, Y(min) - Y, x, y difference between measurements
100, 12.7330 - Y 0.0082, x 0.0003, y 0.0 (the Y and x changed at the same time, 2 measurements of each - panel heating up?)
95, 11.1243 - Y 0.0085, x 0.0001, y 0.0005 (same as above + y change at the same time)
90, 9.6265 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
85, 8.5436 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
80, 7.2657 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
75, 6.1165 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
70, 5.2976 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
65, 4.3959 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
60, 3.6045 - Y 0.0002, x 0.0007, y 0.0016
55, 3.0408 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
50, 2.3705 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0
45, 1.8069 - Y 0.0001, x 0.0, y 0.0001
40, 1.3369 - Y 0.0, x 0.0, y 0.0002
35, 1.0206 - Y 0.0002, x 0.0, y 0.0
30, 0.6664 - Y 0.0007, x 0.0005, y 0.0003
25, 0.4043 - Y 0.0006, x 0.0005, y 0.0005
20, 0.2432 - Y 0.0002, x 0.0003, y 0.0003
15, 0.1063 - Y 0.0003, x 0.0004, y 0.0009
10, 0.0226 - Y 0.0001, x 0.0001, y 0.0009

The 10,10,10 actually took 2781ms to read, so have to set intelligent integration above it.
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post #829 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
Have some readings of 76,0,0 ....It is your highest dICtCp, It appears as it is a rec2020 red. Have a reaidng also with CMF and no correction.



PS: what is your display?
I'm sorry, I wrote too fast, I didn't have time.

My TV is a LG C9 and the Colour Space is Rec709 ( gamma (2.4) and WP (D65) default). I use a Lumagen Mini (YCbCr 422) like TPG connected to my laptop.

The i1 display pro 3 OEM is profiled with i1 pro 2 with generic CMF. To make the profiling I used contact mode, first the i1 pro 2 then i1 display pro 3.

Thanks.
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post #830 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonsocm View Post
I'm sorry, I wrote too fast, I didn't have time.

My TV is a LG C9 and the Colour Space is Rec709 ( gamma (2.4) and WP (D65) default). I use a Lumagen Mini (YCbCr 422) like TPG connected to my laptop.

The i1 display pro 3 OEM is profiled with i1 pro 2 with generic CMF. To make the profiling I used contact mode, first the i1 pro 2 then i1 display pro 3.

Thanks.
I have given a look to my C8 readings. Similar conditions, except I have generated the 3DLUwith a Klein, and verified it direcly with a Jeti. Not contact, and PG in RGB mode. Not at your extent, but also in my case I see higher ICTP dE on low luminance reds (in my case 48): basically the pannel tends to a red which is in the rec2020 area, so with quite a relevant cromaticity error.
It looks tecnology related.


PS: Be aware you have to divide ICTP by 3, to make it comparable to dE2000.
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post #831 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miksu2 View Post
.
I'm eager to test that myself, just don't know when I'll have the opportunity. I know that I can filter the results from latest profiling (L <= 1) to get low end readings, but is there a way to copy or export those to create a .csv?

Yes, there is. The .bcs is html format, so open. Excel can import it. You have only to use the develepment tag (you may have to enable it from option menu) to import it.
Once imported you can easily sort data by Y (Y9 column). You have RGB level in stimulus in red, green, blue. Just enough to multiply by 255 to have the related RGB levels you need to put in a .csv file.
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post #832 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I have given a look to my C8 readings. Similar conditions, except I have generated the 3DLUwith a Klein, and verified it direcly with a Jeti. Not contact, and PG in RGB mode. Not at your extent, but also in my case I see higher ICTP dE on low luminance reds (in my case 48): basically the pannel tends to a red which is in the rec2020 area, so with quite a relevant cromaticity error.
It looks tecnology related.


PS: Be aware you have to divide ICTP by 3, to make it comparable to dE2000.
I am thinking to make a volumetric profiling in order to try get better results. Do you recommend some settings for the spectro?

Also, it is recommended the colorimeter and the spectro are perpendicular to the TV? Is it better to put the colorimeter in horizontal? Like this:




Thanks.
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post #833 of 837 Old 02-10-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonsocm View Post
I am thinking to make a volumetric profiling in order to try get better results. Do you recommend some settings for the spectro?

Also, it is recommended the colorimeter and the spectro are perpendicular to the TV? Is it better to put the colorimeter in horizontal? Like this:




Thanks.
As you are trying to correct the image you see, the correct angle is whatever angle your vision naturally forms to the display from your seating. If you can get the screen angled to place it perpendicular to your vision, in normal viewing, then that would be correct. If your seating position is below the screen, then angling your meters in that same way would be most likely to correct what you actually see close to reference.

You should apply the same logic to volumetric profiling as to colorimeter vs spectro matrix correction. Follow your true viewing angle to the display.
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post #834 of 837 Old 02-11-2020, 06:14 PM
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Hello everyone. I'm wanting to set up a 3d lut in one of the low input modes. I'm using pgenerator, and from what I understand PC input mode is is not full rgb-video, as it compresses everything in half, ie rgb 4:4:4 will be 4:2:2 unless it's 60fps. Since I can't use PC mode, how should I go about creating a 3d lut for games? Ted tells me that game mode doesn't have the same processing, and can have near black errors. Should I run a full display profile for game mode and ISF expert dark mode just to make sure they're both accurate? I understand that I can use the ISF display profile for everything but game mode. I would appreciate any input. Thanks guys.
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post #835 of 837 Old 02-11-2020, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
jrref

See if you can confirm this.

Looks like the Dolby Configuration file is measuring the current white point and then adjusting it to D65 in the Dolby Engine

So, when the config file reads .3127 .3290 the offsets Dolby Creates are NONE, and it's business as usual.

I then tried editing the config file to read .3080 .3130 and noticed that I had a HUGE green push, the exact same problem I tried to correct for when comparing D65 to the Dolby / LG white point.

So, let's see if the Dolby Engine can be tricked.

I plugged in .3174 .3450

I did this from my laptop from across the room, using Netflix to engage Dolby Vision mode. I immediately saw the color shift I was wanting, and I'm going to leave it on these coordinates and test some content.

Has this been tried before?

# Dolby Vision User Display Configuration File
# Generated by 5.10.2.49 on 2/11/2020
# Display: Unspecified
# DM Version:
PictureMode = 2
Tmax = 729.953513983731
Tmin = 1E-11
Tgamma = 2.2
ColorPrimaries = 0.6765 0.3234 0.2662 0.6735 0.1455 0.0493 0.3174 0.3450
TLMS2RGBmat = 4.32797357185 -3.44998107855457 0.122007506704564 -0.921443107652753 2.05717252080437 -0.135729413151611 0.0563360532490141 -0.126130215679782 1.06979416243077
Not knowing exactly how the DV internals are working, all you can do is experiment. I'll try to find out more information.

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post #836 of 837 Old 02-12-2020, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-007 View Post
jrref

See if you can confirm this.

Looks like the Dolby Configuration file is measuring the current white point and then adjusting it to D65 in the Dolby Engine
I believe this belongs in the CalMAN for LG thread, not in a LightSpace thread...
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post #837 of 837 Old Yesterday, 02:28 AM
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First FrankenLUT is now made and verified. Integration time of 0.75 with intelligent integration off and below 1 nits patches retaken with intelligent integration above 1. It's a lot of work but it looks good, at least on paper. If you want to compare if it's worth the trouble, you can compare with my previous results. The LUT, exports and pdf from verify is in the zip.
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Attached Files
File Type: zip frankenprofile.zip (495.0 KB, 6 views)
File Type: txt HowToFrankenprofile.txt (3.6 KB, 6 views)

LG C8, LightSpace, i1 Display pro, PGenerator, Dolby labs whitepoint for lg OLEDs x=0.308 y=0.313

Last edited by Miksu2; Yesterday at 09:46 AM. Reason: HowToFrankenprofile
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